Stickied Italian Football

mistermagic

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I see your Atalanta beating Lyon and respond by Lyon knocking out Roma last season. One result doesn't make a league look better.

So there are youngsters starting in Serie A. Did I say otherwise? I'm saying there is no talent. Out of all of those teenagers being thrown on the pitch who would you say has actually got serious talent?
 
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it's not just one result, the gap in quality in atalanta vs lyon, napoli vs nice and second-string lazio vs nice this season alone was blindingly obvious. last season's lyon vs roma aside, every franco-italian match has gone serie a's way (inter - st etienne and lille, napoli - marseille, udinese - rennes etc) pretty much since marseille beat inter on away goals in 2012.

it's not even a debate, italy has consistently outperformed france in europe, overtook germany in the coefficients and is closing in on england. ligue 1 is barely on par with the portuguese league.

i can give you a comprehensive list of teenagers or under 23s to remedy your ignorance but it's a strange thing to contest at a time when even the guardian writes about serie a's youth boom.
 
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mistermagic

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it's not just one result, the gap in quality in atalanta vs lyon, napoli vs nice and second-string lazio vs nice this season alone was blindingly obvious. last season's lyon vs roma aside, every franco-italian match has gone serie a's way (inter - st etienne and lille, napoli - marseille, udinese - rennes etc) pretty much since marseille beat inter on away goals in 2012.

it's not even a debate, italy has consistently outperformed france in europe, overtook germany in the coefficients and is closing in on england. ligue 1 is barely on par with the portuguese league.

i can give you a comprehensive list of teenagers or under 23s to remedy your ignorance but it's a strange thing to contest at a time when even the guardian writes about serie a's youth boom.
So how do you explain Italy's non-qualification? Is it only due to Spain being in their group? Or are the teenagers too young to throw into the mix? The guardian can write all it wants, I don't see the talent coming through (if there was, most games wouldn't be a complete and utter bore).
 
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So how do you explain Italy's non-qualification? Is it only due to Spain being in their group? Or are the teenagers too young to throw into the mix? The guardian can write all it wants, I don't see the talent coming through (if there was, most games wouldn't be a complete and utter bore).
because of a poor manager that didn't even field the best italian player, never mind integrating the young'uns? france didn't qualify for 2 consecutive world cups at the same time that the late 90s generation that won the world cup and euros was coming through.

but hang on, when did this become about the italian national team rather than the italian league? is there no talent in france because its best players, mbappe aside, are in england and spain?

each to their own but (a) there's no connection between the quality of youth and how boring a match managers play out (b) it's the only top 5 league where there's still a title race at this point and (c) teams like atalanta and lazio succeeding through youth and great coaching is surely more exciting than a qatari-driven one-team league that is the epitome of everything wrong with modern football?
 

mistermagic

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because of a poor manager that didn't even field the best italian player, never mind integrating the young'uns? france didn't qualify for 2 consecutive world cups at the same time that the late 90s generation that won the world cup and euros was coming through.

but hang on, when did this become about the italian national team rather than the italian league? is there no talent in france because its best players, mbappe aside, are in england and spain?

each to their own but (a) there's no connection between the quality of youth and how boring a match managers play out (b) it's the only top 5 league where there's still a title race at this point and (c) teams like atalanta and lazio succeeding through youth and great coaching is surely more exciting than a qatari-driven one-team league that is the epitome of everything wrong with modern football?
I am deploring the state of the Italian league as even more a one-team league than Ligue 1 (don't forget that PSG aren't reigning champions, unlike Juve) with big, massive clubs like the Milan duo failing to make ends meet and not being at all entertaining to watch and not going places in Europe.
I grant you that Napoli are exciting but wouldn't put them and Lazio beating Nice in Europe this season as a success as the club suffered a small exodus, loss of momentum and injuries to key players in this first half of the season. They're really not the side that finised 3rd last season. Not saying they would have beaten Napoli but would have given Lazio a game I reckon. I also wouldn't say the Atalanta/Lyon side was embarassing one-sided. Atalanta won the group, fair play. It was still a tight tie.

I'm making the assumption that the loss of talent is majorly to blame for the non-qualification of the national side to the World Cup. After all, it is a major tournament. I honestly don't think that having Ranieri will change much unless something is down at youth level. If there are some young gems coming out then fair play. I just don't know who they are or what they're watiting for to make Italy a great footballing nation again.

(This is all about me missing the good old days of the late 90s. Remember those? Parma won the UEFA Cup with Buffon, Cannavaro, Costacurta, Thuram, Boghossian, Crespo & Chiesa. Milan had Sheva, Pato. Inter had Adriano before he got fat. I could go on. I just don't see youth talent or quality players in numbers in Serie A anymore. Maybe it's just me.)
 
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the milanese clubs spending hundreds of millions in the past few seasons and still failing to make the CL is surely a good thing? the bar has been raised by napoli, roma and lazio thru years of consistency and good management.

don't kid yourself, juve may be reigning champions but they won the league after roma and napoli achieved their all-time highest points record and took it to the final game of the season. this season the table speaks for itself, and juve's financial muscle relative to the other teams is nowhere near like psg's in ligue 1.

anyway, you're ignoring what i said and drawing straw men here. i didn't say it was a success, rather more indicative of the gap in quality between the top teams of both leagues. atalanta too lost their entire midfield and comfortably did away with the third best team in france.

it's always the 'good old 90s' nostalgic fever but serie a will never be at that level, nor will any one league be as dominant financially compared to everyone else. all the wealth today is concentrated in a small group of transnational elite clubs. it's a different league now and coaches like sarri, inzaghi and di francesco are a refreshing sign of what it'll look like.
 
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for future ref, off the top of my head:

u20s: donnarumma, chiesa, cutrone, locatelli, calabria, pellegri, kean, barella, gerson, meret, mandragora, diawara, donsah, murgia, orsolini, romagna, crosta

u23s: icardi, dybala, bernardeschi, milinkovic-savic, suso, belotti, berardi, zielinski, simeone, torreira, ferrari, caldara, cristante, petagna, skriniar, pellegrini, felipe anderson, conti, kessie, rugani, romagnoli, andre silva, schick, jankto, gagliardini, strakosha, emerson, benassi, spinazzola, sturaro, bentancur, rog, linetty

all regulars (63% are italians) and many are valued at or already went for plus 40 mil.
 
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mistermagic

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Those players look a bit meh having seen them on the box every now and again but I only watch 2 Serie A games a month (at best).

Poor management is the only thing keeping the Milan clubs from the CL then? Or do Napoli and Roma need to also get pillaged of their best players for that to happen? Would be nice to have some competition to Juve at the top (I know that other sides are doing well this year but I feel like Juve are tired of winning it all the time and the lack of trophies will only make them hungrier for 2018/19). Realistically, Juve will finish 2nd at best (6 points clear of Inter and 5 of Roma if they win their game in hand) and I fancy them to pipe Napoli to the title again.
 

Benji

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I can't believe how well Gattuso has turned Milan around. They've got a brilliant record over the last 10 or 11 games. Okay many of those games were against poorer teams, but they weren't acheiving even that under Montella. And it includes a win and a draw with Lazio, and a 2-0 win over Roma last night.

I haven't been free for a game for a while, but I understand it is not pretty football, but effective. And Cutrone is a star in the making.
 

Ale18

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I can't believe how well Gattuso has turned Milan around. They've got a brilliant record over the last 10 or 11 games. Okay many of those games were against poorer teams, but they weren't acheiving even that under Montella. And it includes a win and a draw with Lazio, and a 2-0 win over Roma last night.

I haven't been free for a game for a while, but I understand it is not pretty football, but effective. And Cutrone is a star in the making.
also tomorrow could reach the final of "Coppa Italia"

Gattuso has brought back confidence in the milan environment and some good player now can play as they know
 

mistermagic

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Been watching Lazio/Juve. No Higuain no party for the visitors. Mandzukic isn't used to playing CF and Juve have had a poor game offensively. Buffon has made more saves so far than his opposite number.
Looking forward to Napoli/Roma later today though.
 

mistermagic

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Half-time in Naples. Roma lead 2-1. Really good game of football. Napoli opened the score by Insigne but Roma replied by two goals from Cendiz and Dzeko. Best half of Serie A I've seen this season by far.
 

mistermagic

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4-1 to Roma now. Clinical Dzeko finish and Perrotti for the Romans. Insigne is trying very hard to score but Allison is having a great game, stopping each and every one of his shots. Great watch.
 

TheMinsterman

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Oh God, Juve are going to win the Serie A again aren't they.
Yeah, probably unfortunately. The league desperately needs to big guns like Milan to be back up there and another attractive destination to curtail Juventus just hovering up all the talent.
 

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Sad to hear about Davide Astori. 31? Jeez.
 
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Went to Napoli Roma last night. Element of flat track bullies with this Napoli team, especially with no plan B. Hard to say that, as their plan A is some of the best football you'll see in Europe.

Shocking news about Astori as well. No age.
 

SALTIRE

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That's horrific about Astori. Poor fella.

Shame Napoli look to be bottling it, we don't need Juve winning it yet again.
 

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Very sad.

MEN decided to tweet out "Matteo Darmian will have woken up to some terrible news #mufc".

Moronic.
 

Renegade

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