Relegation places up for debate again.

[T.A]

Apologies for the DM link but looks legit.

EXCLUSIVE: EFL ready to offer National League THIRD promotion place

EXCLUSIVE BY MATT HUGHES: he EFL are ready to offer three promotion places to the National League as part of their contribution to the financial reset being demanded by Rick Parry.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Probably about time really.

 

[valefan16]

Apologies for the DM link but looks legit.

EXCLUSIVE: EFL ready to offer National League THIRD promotion place

EXCLUSIVE BY MATT HUGHES: he EFL are ready to offer three promotion places to the National League as part of their contribution to the financial reset being demanded by Rick Parry.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Probably about time really.

It’s ok in principle but needs better regulation in the National League to allow this rather than clubs spending big and entering the EFL having financial rules that benefit them which are against EFL rules.

Personally I would be more up for the National League Premier becoming “League Three” and being incorporated into the EFL with the EFL rules and structure etc. (3 up 3 down or 4/4 like L1 to 2.

We are at the stage now as I’ve said before that the NLP has such a large number of bigger clubs that the strength of our pyramid allows our league system to be 116 clubs.

Relegation then into the regional league system from league three starting with NLN and NLS.

 

[PuB]

Notts County (for example) just posted a huge loss to add to their circa £13m debt, if they’re not going to have any financial regulations down there then I’m firmly against it.

 

[Gladders]

Notts County (for example) just posted a huge loss to add to their circa £13m debt, if they’re not going to have any financial regulations down there then I’m firmly against it.

Yeah because the EFL rules are so good no clubs post massive losses or have millions in debt

 

[Chief Rocka]

Four up, four down, do it cowards

 

[hellogregory]

Reduce it back to 1 up 1 down

 

[Soup Ladle]

With PuB on this one, has to be financial alignment. It might stop the odd tinpot non-entity coming up as well.

 

[JaredSUFC]

Reduce it back to 1 up 1 down

I would go so far as to say bolt the door and stop promotion and relegation from the NL to the EFL immediately. After all they let us finish above them the other year on our budget of coins found on the street, clubs in the NL don’t deserve promotion…..

Joking aside I have at best mixed feelings about 3 up/3 down. My heart says that promotion to the EFL is a special thing, certainly our promotion to this level in 2021 is by far the biggest achievement in our clubs near 125 year history. An extra promotion place would lessen the achievement for the next Sutton or Harrogate in the future imo.

Regardless of the number of promotion and relegation spots in any given division you’ll always have a log jam of clubs who feel they should be in a higher league unable to get promoted. That’s the nature of competition. Increasing the promotion and relegation places may provide a short term movement as was seen when 2 up/2 down was introduced however eventually it’ll plateau and calls to increase will start again.

 

[Stocky]

3 up 3 down for me. It's the smallest gap in quality between English leagues and yet the smallest amount of places.

 

[DearneValleyRover]

They should do it like in Scotland, first 2 places automatic, 4 v 5 winner to play 3rd winner of that to play 3rd bottom of League 2. Can’t make it too easy or they will want 4 up/down.

 

[shoddycollins]

3 up 3 down for me. It's the smallest gap in quality between English leagues and yet the smallest amount of places.

I actually think it's the largest quality gap, but with most divisions the big jump in quality comes not between the two leagues, but between the promotion contenders and the rest, for example teams have a tougher time going from Championship mainstays to Championship promotion contenders than they do going from League One to the Championship. The same in League One and of course between Premiership mid-tablers and the big teams. League Two doesn't have that jump though and it's generally a smooth decline in quality from League One promotion outsiders right down to the bottom of League Two. Maybe each season there's a couple of teams in non-league who are of higher quality before you get to the general non-league dross, but one or two, no more and even then they're usually being assisted by more lenient financial rules.

That's not a diss on Stockport, which no doubt you'll take it as since you lot get butthurt easier than any fans I've yet encountered here, you're in League Two now and holding your own, but should you get into League One and want to start pushing for promotion there then you'll see what a real jump is, because the clubs you need to overtake there aren't just lower league established sides of a similar size to your own but fallen giants with significantly greater resources.

 

[Stocky]

I actually think it's the largest quality gap, but with most divisions the big jump in quality comes not between the two leagues, but between the promotion contenders and the rest, for example teams have a tougher time going from Championship mainstays to Championship promotion contenders than they do going from League One to the Championship. The same in League One and of course between Premiership mid-tablers and the big teams. League Two doesn't have that jump though and it's generally a smooth decline in quality from League One promotion outsiders right down to the bottom of League Two. Maybe each season there's a couple of teams in non-league who are of higher quality before you get to the general non-league dross, but one or two, no more and even then they're usually being assisted by more lenient financial rules.

That's not a diss on Stockport, which no doubt you'll take it as since you lot get butthurt easier than any fans I've yet encountered here, you're in League Two now and holding your own, but should you get into League One and want to start pushing for promotion there then you'll see what a real jump is, because the clubs you need to overtake there aren't just lower league established sides of a similar size to your own but fallen giants with significantly greater resources.

I've watched my club play at all those levels.

I don't know what you're on about, you're bascially agreeing with me and tieing yourself in knots. I agree with the fallen giants comment, hence why the step from L2 to L1 is harder. And L1 to CH is harder still. NL>L2 is the easiest step up in the English professional game, it's really not a debate.

 

[Son of Cod]

I actually think it's the largest quality gap

Absolute madness.

They should do it like in Scotland, first 2 places automatic, 4 v 5 winner to play 3rd winner of that to play 3rd bottom of League 2. Can’t make it too easy or they will want 4 up/down.

Yep, I'm well up for that.

 

[BarraMatt]

This debate only seems to have reared its head since there are a number of bigger clubs that are doing well, as you'd expect with more voices backing it. I can't remember too much of a demand for it a few years back, in fact it was probably the opposite prior to some of the bankrolled clubs a la Fleetwood getting promoted.

There will always be selfishness in this argument from any team it directly affects. Would who is currently towards the top of the NL be so vocal about it if they were struggling at the bottom of League Two? Probably not.

That suggestion about the Scotland style playoff isn't a bad one.

 

[Son of Cod]

This debate only seems to have reared its head since there are a number of bigger clubs that are doing well, as you'd expect with more voices backing it. I can't remember too much of a demand for it a few years back, in fact it was probably the opposite prior to some of the bankrolled clubs a la Fleetwood getting promoted.

Nah, this conversation has been going on since before Fleetwood came up for sure. I remember it being a discussion long before we went down for the first time too so we're going back a decade and a half. It probably began when the likes of Oxford went down.

 

[shoddycollins]

I've watched my club play at all those levels.

I don't know what you're on about, you're bascially agreeing with me and tieing yourself in knots. I agree with the fallen giants comment, hence why the step from L2 to L1 is harder. And L1 to CH is harder still. NL>L2 is the easiest step up in the English professional game, it's really not a debate.

It's simple but let me explain.

I'm saying the real gap isn't always between one division and another but is between the promotion contenders and the rest in most divisions. L2 has the smallest gap, if any, but down the in Conference the gap is the biggest of any.

Tis not I but thee who hath formed a knot of oneself.

 

[Son of Cod]

It's simple but let me explain.

I'm saying the real gap isn't always between one division and another but is between the promotion contenders and the rest in most divisions. L2 has the smallest gap, if any, but down the in Conference the gap is the biggest of any.

Tis not I but thee who hath formed a knot of oneself.

But that's not the gap that we're talking about here?

 

[T.A]

It sounds like he’s saying that the only reason half the division is strong and look ready for a promotion is because the bottom half is so awful. So if another team came up they wouldn’t do that well.

 

[Son of Cod]

It sounds like he’s saying that the only reason half the division is strong and look ready for a promotion is because the bottom half is so awful. So if another team came up they wouldn’t do that well.

But that isn't a valid counter to the fact that the smallest gap between the top five divisions is Conference to L2 and then from there the gaps get progressively bigger. It's just a completely separate point/conversation.

 

[shoddycollins]

But that isn't a valid counter to the fact that the smallest gap between the top five divisions is Conference to L2 and then from there the gaps get progressively bigger. It's just a completely separate point/conversation.

I don't think the gap between the top of any of the main divisions and the bottom of the one above isn't especially big. In the sense that each division has teams at the top who are more than capable of holding their own in the division above though there are often glass ceilings of sorts within the divisions if you want to join that top group, we spent ages in L1 trying and failing to break into that group. The Conference I think of them all has the smallest such group.

 

[The Terminator]

EFL probably see the National League now littered with alot of ex league sides, so maybe more inclined to offer them a way back, who knows..............

Currently there are 14 ex league sides in the National League (Inc the Phoenix clubs Halifax and Maidstone.....).

Personally, I am not against 3 up and 3 down if it happens I think it will be a good move, but if it doesn't happen then nothing will be lost.

 

[Luke Imp]

This debate only seems to have reared its head since there are a number of bigger clubs that are doing well, as you'd expect with more voices backing it. I can't remember too much of a demand for it a few years back, in fact it was probably the opposite prior to some of the bankrolled clubs a la Fleetwood getting promoted.

There will always be selfishness in this argument from any team it directly affects. Would who is currently towards the top of the NL be so vocal about it if they were struggling at the bottom of League Two? Probably not.

That suggestion about the Scotland style playoff isn't a bad one.

Tbf, this hasn't come about because of that, it's off the back of the conversations around the new PL/EFL deal and the potential there to have a bit of a re-set.

The Championship have pretty much refused to engage in discussions around any sort of financial measures for years now but the PL have said they won't put any new deal on the table unless they do and now they seem willing to change. The NL are, at some point, going to have to do the same if they want their extra promotion place and fall closer in the line to the EFL and that makes sense. It's currently a fractured pyramid between the PL and EFL and EFL to NL.

 

[Luke Imp]

r.e. the gaps between the leagues, there's a reason that no promoted NL side has gone straight back down, and average stays for L2 to L1 promoted sides is 4 years and L1 to Championship is 3 years. Suspect Championship to PL is 2 or so?

Obviously I've seen three leagues in a fairly short space of time and I think the gap in quality between the top and bottom sides is the smallest in L2.

 

[Soup Ladle]

r.e. the gaps between the leagues, there's a reason that no promoted NL side has gone straight back down, and average stays for L2 to L1 promoted sides is 4 years and L1 to Championship is 3 years. Suspect Championship to PL is 2 or so?

Obviously I've seen three leagues in a fairly short space of time and I think the gap in quality between the top and bottom sides is the smallest in L2.

I don't think there's a great deal between top of L2 and the bottom half of L1 based on our own experience and playing weaker L1 teams in cups. The top sides in L1 are a different level though and without serious finance, it's pretty much impossible for clubs of around our size to challenge for promotion to the Championship.

The gap is the smallest between L2 and NL. The top L2 sides are better than NL ones, the rest of us are around similar standard. I'm not against 3 up/down but there has to be uniform regulation for that be on the table to be honest.

 

[Son of Cod]

I don't think the gap between the top of any of the main divisions and the bottom of the one above isn't especially big. In the sense that each division has teams at the top who are more than capable of holding their own in the division above though there are often glass ceilings of sorts within the divisions if you want to join that top group, we spent ages in L1 trying and failing to break into that group. The Conference I think of them all has the smallest such group.

I think you're wrong though if you're saying there isn't much of a gap between the top of L1 and the bottom of the Championship. It's not Prem to Championship sized but it's significantly bigger than the L1 to L2 gap. Which in turn is bigger than the L2 to Conference one. Case in point there will be that next season us and Stockport will be far more likely to be involved in a promotion challenge than the likes of FGR, Exeter, Port Vale, etc will be in L1. The question is probably which is more likely, Grimsby or Stockport to go up or one of last year's teams promoted from L2 to come down (if they haven't already)? Which says to me all you need to know.

I get what you're saying about the standard of teams at the bottom of Conference being a mile off those at the top of the division and the gap between the top and bottom of L2 being the smallest but like I said before, that's a different conversation for me as we're talking about the step up here. The bottom of the Conference has no relevance when discussing the gap between the two divisions.

For the record, I'm not especially arsed about two/three up two/three down, if you're shit enough to go down you have to deal with it. However, the gap between the Conference and L2 is the smallest of the top five divisions and it's madness to argue otherwise in my opinion.

 

[E10rifle]

Personally think it should be standardised to 3 up, 3 down across all EFL divisions including the current anomaly at the top of League 2/bottom of League 1.

Absolutely against ‘League 3’, though. Non-League needs its flagship division, I don’t think exiting the EFL should mean automatic regional football and I don’t want lifelong minnows like Boreham Wood, Solihull Moors and Southend getting into the EFL by default.

 

[AdamStag]

Having seen us both in the league and the conference i’m happy for it to happen, but maybe involving the side finishing 22nd also.

Maybe something like top goes up, side who wins the playoffs goes up and the side who loses the playoffs plays 22nd (though i appreciate that’s complicated and prob wouldn’t happen)

The conference has never seemingly been ran well and somehow makes the EFL look world beaters in this matter.

I don’t see any big difference between the bottom of league 2 and the conference but also the same gap exists between the bottom half of league 1 and the top sides in league 2.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

There has been a huge decline over the last 15 odd years in Northern 'established' lower league clubs which has I think had a little bit of a domino effect on other northern established lower league clubs, I feel the effect of the change in lower leagues hasn't been felt as much down south.

over the last few years have lost Darlington, Chester, York, Notts C, Oldham, Wrexham, Scunthorpe and Chesterfield, of course also ones which came back like Grimsby, Lincoln, Mansfield, Stockport, Tranmere and Hartlepool. The gains northern clubs wise like Salford, Fleetwood, Accrington, Morecambe etc, etc.

the best way to explain the effect is away support, alot of these clubs to Carlisle would bring a good 500+ fans on poor days, if having a good season maybe 1,000 fans.

the replacement sides bring 100 on a bad day and if doing well may get up to 400 fans.


Add in that you also have many others arrived like Crawley, Stevenage, Sutton etc etc who are similar sizes, but southern so can bring even less.

Think L2 Northern clubs now probably mostly rely on Bradford, Carlisle and at the moment maybe Stockport for a couple of half decent away supports during a season and even then I know in Carlisle's position away support is probably half the size it used to be in 90's and early 00's due to costs thesedays.

I certainly do feel balance has thrown lower league wise to sourthern clubs and am unsure why, its the same within non-league, you only have to look at the conference north in the last few seasons compared to 10 years back to see how ridiculously strong that became, me going to watch Curzon in conference North seemed almost like watching Carlisle in division 3 and 4 in the late 90's.

Southern club wise we lost established in Torquay and southend, plus good support with Yeovil not even close to same levels. I suppose there was also Luton and Cambridge.

 

[GTFCfish]

Think L2 Northern clubs now probably mostly rely on Bradford, Carlisle and at the moment maybe Stockport for a couple of half decent away supports during a season.

Think you’ve forgotten someone else there mucker.

 

[BarraMatt]

Think you’ve forgotten someone else there mucker.

You had a game postponed for a waterlogged pitch in August so you're in with the likes of us I'm afraid. According to the League Two oracle anyway.