Athletic Article: League One and Two Seasons to be abandoned next week

[Huntsman94]

Unless he means the 22/24/24/22 proposal that some of us were on about in here a few weeks back. But the PL don't want to divide by 22 teams so that's a non-starter.

Then you go to the point that the majority of the bottom half of the Premier League don't want relegation at all so we're stuck again as what happens to the likes of Leeds and WBA!? It is quite funny seeing all the proposals going around with no one, not even the Premier League or EFL, knowing what will happen.

 

[Indian Dan]

It boils down to the PL really. You’ve got to have relegation to enable promotion from below. Unless the PL go for 2 promoted from the Championship and an enlarged PL for 1 season.

No matter what eventually happens they’ll be shit flying all over the place for those disadvantaged clubs.

I bet some are hoping for a host of clubs to go bust so leagues can be realigned with a reduced number of clubs and seemingly no club feeling like they’ve been shafted.

 

[Luke Imp]

Don’t buy into this weighted home and away stuff, the season is 3/4 of the way through. Do it on PPG and have 4th go up.

Obviously like other suggestions they’ll be some that it suits and others than it doesn’t.

By weighting it, it gets rid of, or helps, one of the variables within doing PPG. I'm not sure whether it makes too much difference overall anyway, by this point of the season it's a pretty even split of home and away games left.

In L1, I think it's Posh who do better from weighted PPG but the table is there or thereabouts. I think we go up a place.

Also, in relation to the conference barrow will come up but Harrogate have a 4g pitch, which the league won’t allow, what happens then?

Before the start of an NL season, any club with a plastic pitch has to commit to replacing it with a grass pitch if they get promoted to the EFL.

“Likely” generally means more than 66% chance - look it up if you want. Not one play off side had a 66% chance of going up.

I am still dead against any play off side being promoted at the detriment of a side in a relegation spot. I’d rather a relegation side got a lucky reprieve - Tranmere had more chance of getting themselves out of it than any one club did of being promoted. And frankly it makes no odds to me whether we play Tranmere, Cheltenham or Exeter next season.

Automatic placed sides are different - they should gain the reward of promotion.

I can half see where you're coming from but if you're gaining rewards for being above the line at this point, then the opposite needs to apply for below the line.

I mean, any of the top 3 of L2 were as likely or less likely to be overtaken as Tranmere were to overtake in L1.

Because those sides haven’t earned promotion. They’ve earned a 25% shot at promotion, nothing more. Tranmere had more than a 25% chance of safety - they were 3 points behind with a game in hand ffs! Relegating them and replacing them with a play off side is so wrong, I’d be pissed off if I was a Tranmere fan.

They're being replaced with an automatically promoted side? PO side will make the numbers back up to 24?

Under normal circumstances, 21st would be replaced by the PO winners, but as the L1 only has 23 teams this season, the PO team will be the one who even the numbers up rather than replace anyone per se.

The bottom three are replaced the automatically promoted teams and Tranmere are in the bottom three in this anomaly of a season, even if they're 21st.

And I am sure your interest in this subject is completely altruistic. What a load of bollocks. Voiding a season ensures every club maintains its current status rather than making arbitrary 'guesses' about who would have gone up and down. You have not been promoted. Leeds have not been promoted. What would have happened in the final ten games Is unknowable.

Well, exactly, and with that line of thinking, there's no sense in voiding the season or PPG and thus no correct or fair way of doing it. That's the problem whichever angle people come from, there is no fair way.

When you say “promoted” clubs, I assume you are referring to ourselves Crewe and Swindon. I can’t speak for the other two but last week our owner gave a very bullish fans forum. Several times he made the point that because we’ve no debt and new income streams, that relative to many other clubs in leagues 2, 1 and the Championship we will come out of it very strongly. And his use of the term Championship seemed very deliberate.

The Championship is a ticking time bomb. Hasn't it got something daft like £650m of debt in it? Not a wonder the likes of Derby, Wednesday etc are having to sell off their assets, albeit to their owners, to make the balance sheet better for FFP. But that selling off thing is another debate.

Wrong. If we were being replaced by a club in an automatic position I would not be happy but I could at least see the logic. It is being replaced by a team that in no sense has earned a promotion that I object to.

You'd be replaced by an automatically promoted side. The PO side would bump the numbers up to 24.

 

[Indian Dan]

At last! Somebody gets it!

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Then you go to the point that the majority of the bottom half of the Premier League don't want relegation at all so we're stuck again as what happens to the likes of Leeds and WBA!? It is quite funny seeing all the proposals going around with no one, not even the Premier League or EFL, knowing what will happen.

Just shows how ridiculous the game has become since it sold its soul to Sky, three governing bodies (four if you include the National League) governing all professional aspects of the game and because the PL and EFL have spent years taking the money without thought, as soon as a bizarre event hits the league, no one has a clue and money is at the forefront of everyone's minds.

You've got Leeds, West Brom, Rotherham, Coventry, us, Swindon, Plymouth and Barrow expecting promotion

You've got opportunists like Southend doing all they can to get out of a nailed on relegation whereas yourselves have a genuine argument that you could've survived. It's why I can understand you kicking up a fuss about it but certainly not Ron Martin.

The bottom six in the PL are shit scared of relegation and losing money but the one team least affected by any proposal to curtail or void the season is, obviously, doing everything it can not to restart the season even though the vast majority want to because they need the money. But it's alright for Brighton because they have a rich fan to bail them out from even the heaviest of losses when a void season arises whereas Burnley and Bournemouth won't be so fortunate...

The scary thing though the different agendas end up splitting the fans as well! I've noticed that we've all been realistic how it can affect us, we all accept the season can't continue and we may be divided on how we resolve the season, but the thing is we know that a loss of money and cashflow in the game could absolutely cripple us all.

Premier League, Championship and armchair fans are all on cloud cuckoo land though. Armchair fans genuinely believe the Premier League is invincible and that Sky and BT (both much bigger corporations) need the Premier League more than the PL needs them. But the PL is the one dependent on the TV money. Armchair fans also believe that Sky and BT and overseas broadcasters will just let the money slide. But £765 million is a lot of money to piss away for nothing. And if fans say renegotiate it, that's great. But the annual income won't be anywhere near as high as it was. Bournemouth have already spent the money on lavish contracts and transfer fees, how will they pay them off if a big drop off in money is going to come? People aren't thinking about the future of the game and the lack of long-term approach in football could see clubs genuinely go bust in the higher two divisions, let alone at our levels or the non leagues below...

And then I'm seeing Reading fans going on about making marquee signings this Summer and I'm thinking "Get real lads!".

 

[Indian Dan]

Gone are the days when a promotion to the top league was only really about kudos, playing the big boys and getting a few extra quid from bigger crowds.

Now it’s not even about competing it’s just about being better than 3 other clubs - that’s the only criteria for ‘success’.

One thing I haven’t heard about is how this is affecting the Italian league

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

I think all the eyes of the football world will be on Germany this weekend when the Bundesliga resumes (if it still does). The cynic in me reckons it'll descend into farce almost immediately. But I think every league in Europe is watching how things pan out before they make their next decision...

 

[Indian Dan]

Here’s the sheer bollicky buffness of Brighton’s stance on neutral venues. They say they’ll lose the advantage of playing at home - which may be true.

But on the other foot they drastically reduce their disadvantage of playing away at a neutral venue.

They are due to play Arsenal at The Emirates. The average points per game for Arsenal at home is 1.73, away it’s 1.08. Brighton’s average points per away game is 0.73. Much more evenly matched with both playing away.

The scheduled game at The Emirates gives Arsenal exactly 1 goal advantage. At a neutral venue Arsenal’s advantage falls to 0.35.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Here’s the sheer bollicky buffness of Brighton’s stance on neutral venues. They say they’ll lose the advantage of playing at home - which may be true.

But on the other foot they drastically reduce their disadvantage of playing away at a neutral venue.

They are due to play Arsenal at The Emirates. The average points per game for Arsenal at home is 1.73, away it’s 1.08. Brighton’s average points per away game is 0.73. Much more evenly matched with both playing away.

The scheduled game at The Emirates gives Arsenal exactly 1 goal advantage. At a neutral venue Arsenal’s advantage falls to 0.35.

Well worth noting that Brighton are the only team in the top four divisions yet to win a game in 2020. Throw in the fact they gave a ludicrous long term contract extension to their new manager after a few months in the job and you can see why their top brass are flapping all over the place, shit scared of relegation and the cuts it'll bring. Especially given how heavily they've invested in their squad with very little sales funding the spending.

And as I've said before, they benefit from any scenario to decide the league that doesn't include continuing the season, you know, the fairest way of resolving it all?

 

[The Terminator]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...y-supplement-on-what-the-future-holds-for-efl

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...y-supplement-on-what-the-future-holds-for-efl

So the season is almost certainly set to be abandoned, but now it's a vote on PPG or "promotion on merit".

I don't see how you can possibly vote for the latter without knowing what the PL or Championship are doing though...

 

[Indian Dan]

I think the PL are threatening to end on ppg to get the refuseniks to play the games out.

 

[Indian Dan]

Here’s the PL latest

Premier League clubs have been warned by the FA that the 2019/20 season must be decided on sporting merit - ruling out the possibility of the season being declared null and void.

Whichever way Premier League clubs vote on how to proceed, the future must include promotion and relegation, clubs were told.

This means that runaway league leaders Liverpool will almost certainly claim their first top tier title in 30 years.

 

[Laker]

They're being replaced with an automatically promoted side? PO side will make the numbers back up to 24?

Under normal circumstances, 21st would be replaced by the PO winners, but as the L1 only has 23 teams this season, the PO team will be the one who even the numbers up rather than replace anyone per se.

The bottom three are replaced the automatically promoted teams and Tranmere are in the bottom three in this anomaly of a season, even if they're 21st.
.

Well the bottom 4 placed sides in League 1 are replaced by the top 3 in League 2 plus a side who qualifies through the play offs. There is one free spot In league 1 due to the Bury farce but it’s still effectively one side being relegated from League 1.

The promoted sides are allowed to be promoted as long as they meet the relevant requirements - ie ground, finances etc. Actually winning promotion in a manner that meets the criteria (ie finishing in the top 3 or winning the play offs) is one of them. A play off placed side hasn’t won the play offs if it hasn’t played them, therefore the highest placed side in the league above gains a reprieve, as is common in non league - ask FGR.

If it was me deciding on my own then I’d be in favour of promoting automatic places sides and not relegating anyone - the 22/24/24/22 scenario. But I accept I’m the only one who thinks that and therefore I’m not banging that drum anymore. I am however not in favour of promoting a side who haven’t met the criteria required for promotion.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Well the bottom 4 placed sides in League 1 are replaced by the top 3 in League 2 plus a side who qualifies through the play offs. There is one free spot In league 1 due to the Bury farce but it’s still effectively one side being relegated from League 1.

The promoted sides are allowed to be promoted as long as they meet the relevant requirements - ie ground, finances etc. Actually winning promotion in a manner that meets the criteria (ie finishing in the top 3 or winning the play offs) is one of them. A play off placed side hasn’t won the play offs if it hasn’t played them, therefore the highest placed side in the league above gains a reprieve, as is common in non league - ask FGR.

If it was me deciding on my own then I’d be in favour of promoting automatic places sides and not relegating anyone - the 22/24/24/22 scenario. But I accept I’m the only one who thinks that and therefore I’m not banging that drum anymore. I am however not in favour of promoting a side who haven’t met the criteria required for promotion.

That was the proposal I was initially in favour of and I believe the L1 and L2 clubs are actually voting on this proposal (called "promotion on merit") on Thursday. The only problem is that it's entirely dependent on what the higher levels do. And the Premier League is very resistant to dividing the pie between 22 as opposed to 20.

I think if the Premier League wants relegation, which it does, then the EFL must accept relegation. So I believe if both options came to the table, the majority of clubs are going to vote for PPG to get the season resolved without any further caveats that the other method would bring, and can then start to discuss salary caps, financial controls and the potential mothballing of clubs for the short-term future.

 

[Indian Dan]

I still don’t understand why your against having a 4th team promoted from L2. It’s a free hit this season because of Bury. It’s just mean spirited. OK it’s tough to choose which 1 of the play off sides to choose but to deny them all is even worse.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1589221614

This is very damning, and this is even if it finishes!

I wonder if those so passionately fixated on null and void now understand that voiding it would be even worse than what's in that article about finishing it...

 

[Laker]

I still don’t understand why your against having a 4th team promoted from L2. It’s a free hit this season because of Bury. It’s just mean spirited. OK it’s tough to choose which 1 of the play off sides to choose but to deny them all is even worse.

I don’t know how I can phrase it any other way for you to understand my point aside for “no play off placed side has won promotion therefore they should not be promoted”. It’s not mean spirited at all in fact the argument being “it’s tough shit, you’re down Tranmere” is more mean spirited than my suggestion.

 

[Trapdoor]

Could just hold playoffs at neutral venue....

 

[Richard Cranium]

No play off team up, as the side robbed of an Auto place by those pesky c*** Bury we will go up and bring back DF so we can actually watch a game where the ball is on the grass

 

[Camborne Gills]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1589221614

This is very damning, and this is even if it finishes!

I wonder if those so passionately fixated on null and void now understand that voiding it would be even worse than what's in that article about finishing it...

I was going to read that link until i saw it was the Grauniad.

 

[valefan16]

If the FA demand relegation for the Premier League then it’s certain it will be the same for L1 and 2 including Tranmere and Stevenage I guess.

Can see it maybe getting voided at the top flight you know. Too many disagreements (not sure how much home advantage will help anyway with no fans!)

I think it will just stalemate in talks and to think it will start in three-four weeks seems fanciful when they can’t agree.

Interestingly Colin Garlick our CEO still seems to think there is a hunger to finish the season at our level. I know we will vote to try and finish it obviously and we’ve not even stopped selling season tickets (sales 25% up on last years decent total oddly at this stage!) Think it’s unlikely though and he’s not correctly gauging the situation if he does think that though.

 

[Devon_Lad]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1589221614

This is very damning, and this is even if it finishes!

I wonder if those so passionately fixated on null and void now understand that voiding it would be even worse than what's in that article about finishing it...

No, we have tried to explain to you umpteen times why this makes no difference whether voiding or finishing on ppg, and you're just choosing to ignore it.

The season cannot be completed and no positions are confirmed. The only fair thing is to null and void the season as current standings are meaningless until everyone has played the same games to compare. You can't, so it has to be voided as it is incomplete.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

I was going to read that link until i saw it was the Grauniad.

Other outlets reporting the same figures in fairness, but it's galling that PL clubs are liable to pay back at least £300 million even if the season is completed on the pitch BCD...

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

No, we have tried to explain to you umpteen times why this makes no difference whether voiding or finishing on ppg, and you're just choosing to ignore it.

The season cannot be completed and no positioms are confirmed. The only fair thing is to null and void the season as current standings are meaningless until everyone has played the same games to compare. You can't, so it has to be voided as it is incomplete.

You didn't read the article did you? Null and void IS NOT HAPPENING. The FA have said so and the risks of doing so are highlighted in that article which is why the £762 million has been mentioned. Get that in your head.

 

[Camborne Gills]

Well worth noting that Brighton are the only team in the top four divisions yet to win a game in 2020. Throw in the fact they gave a ludicrous long term contract extension to their new manager after a few months in the job and you can see why their top brass are flapping all over the place, shit scared of relegation and the cuts it'll bring. Especially given how heavily they've invested in their squad with very little sales funding the spending.

And as I've said before, they benefit from any scenario to decide the league that doesn't include continuing the season, you know, the fairest way of resolving it all?

Really starting to hate Brighton now, ungrateful bastards. Tranmere getting on my wick as well. By whatever method, have 3 down from L1, 4 up from L2, Satanage down and 2 up from the NL and be done with it.

 

[Devon_Lad]

You didn't read the article did you? Null and void IS NOT HAPPENING. The FA have said so and the risks of doing so are highlighted in that article which is why the £762 million has been mentioned. Get that in your head.

Not happening? The FA don't have the final say on this, the courts do. The £762m figure is nonsense based on BC claiming money theyre not entitled to, and if they are, also comes into play on PPG scenario.

I don't understand why you haven't got this in your head despite being told it about 50 times.

Unless you can pinpoint in the charter where it suggests the season will be decided on ppg if unfinished shut the fk up for a bit.

 

[Camborne Gills]

Other outlets reporting the same figures in fairness, but it's galling that PL clubs are liable to pay back at least £300 million even if the season is completed on the pitch BCD...

Just seen that on BBC site to be fair.

 

[TrinidadsNumberOne]

Not happening? The FA don't have the final say on this, the courts do. The £762m figure is nonsense based on BC claiming money theyre not entitled to, and if they are, also comes into play on PPG scenario.

I don't understand why you haven't got this in your head despite being told it about 50 times.

Show me your proof then because that's only your opinion against evidence provided by the articles.

The FA have said null and void is off the table. The Premier League and EFL have said it'll be finished by "sporting merit" and the figure isn't nonsense at all given that is the value of the season that is yet to be broadcast. Even worse, penalty clauses are now going to be included according to the media because the Premier League hasn't broadcast the games in the initially agreed schedule, which does seem harsh but it still constitutes a breach of contract.

Your idea of the Premier League being allowed to keep all the money and not show the product and not have to renegotiate the broadcasting contract as a result of their failure to complete the season is absolutely ridiculous from a business sense. It's pie in the sky stuff, if you'd excuse the pun.

 

[dannyc5]

This Exeter fan has got to be on a wind up?