European Union Referendum

[Alty]

Farage always said it'd probably be the end for him if the UK voted to leave.

Suspect he'll spend the rest of his life drinking wine and doing the occasional after dinner speech.

 

[silkyman]

After milking every penny he can out of being an MEP, and not actually turning up to do his job. Obviously.

It's not done yet though. You'd think he'd at least stick around until Article 50.

In further stock market news. The 100 has levelled off and started to drop again (and companies are steeling themselves for potential foreign buyouts thanks to the low pound) and the 250 is back down again. The £ is up slightly as a result of Gideon postulating about corporation tax reductions.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

After milking every penny he can out of being an MEP, and not actually turning up to do his job. Obviously.

You can't really do one and not the other. You get paid more based on how much time you spend at the European parliament.

 

[silkyman]

OK then. Every penny he can be arsed to. Thick end of £80k a year, a pension and the thick end of £50k 'transitional allowance' when he leaves.
Wonder if his attendance will pick up to squeeze what he can out of it?

But we knew that this was what UKIP were doing. Moaning about the EU and not actually doing anything at all about it.

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/...-‘makes-mockery’-new-election-poster-20150408

 

[Alty]

OK then. Every penny he can be arsed to. Thick end of £80k a year, a pension and the thick end of £50k 'transitional allowance' when he leaves.
Wonder if his attendance will pick up to squeeze what he can out of it?

But we knew that this was what UKIP were doing. Moaning about the EU and not actually doing anything at all about it.

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/farage’s-voting-record-fishing-‘makes-mockery’-new-election-poster-20150408

They've achieved their core goal and in doing so made it impossible for themselves to continue raking in the absurdly huge salaries offered to them by the EU.

If ever you were to make a valid point in this forum (and I'm not holding my breath), it would probably attract less attention because all of your other arguments are so incredibly disingenuous.

 

[silkyman]

Erm? Good comeback? Good debate? Well done?

He's always been happy to take his salary while not doing what a UK MEP is supposed to do. Had he actually attended fisheries meetings, he might have been able to make a difference for UK fishing. Don't defend the coward. He's done the same as Cameron and Johnson. Fucked it all and then legged it, but only as far as his meal ticket.

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

He's essentially a Tory at heart, wouldn't be surprised to see him go home.

 

[Alty]

Had he actually attended fisheries meetings, he might have been able to make a difference for UK fishing.

No he wouldn't. Wake up, man. Have yourself a look at the Treaties and the EU legislative process and then come back to me with an argument as to how much Farage could have done to protect the UK fishing industry.

 

[silkyman]

Not a lot from a position of absence. He was voted in as an MEP supposedly with the UK's best interests at heart but had one of the lowest attendence rates.

Don't claim to be backing the UK, and do literally nothing. Even fighting a losing battle is fighting. He could still have rattled his sabre.

He's a fraud and a coward. And he has taken everyone who voted for him for a c***.

Just like De Pfeffel.

 

[silkyman]

He's essentially a Tory at heart, wouldn't be surprised to see him go home.

House of Lords perhaps? Would be gloriously ironic if he were to have himself installed as an unelected, unaccountable powerbroker.

 

[Alty]

Not a lot from a position of absence. He was voted in as an MEP supposedly with the UK's best interests at heart but had one of the lowest attendence rates.

Don't claim to be backing the UK, and do literally nothing. Even fighting a losing battle is fighting. He could still have rattled his sabre.

He's a fraud and a coward. And he has taken everyone who voted for him for a c***.

Just like De Pfeffel.

He thought the UK's interests were best served by British withdrawal and after 20 odd years he's achieved that goal.

Farage is a lot of things and I'm certainly not blind to the many legitimate criticisms one can make of him. But to call him a fraud or a coward is just objectively wrong. He's been 100% honest about his political goals and has said and done things he knew would cause him an extraordinary amount of grief because he truly believed in what he was doing.

 

[silkyman]

So why not genuinely see it through?

Why walk away when things are starting to get sticky? We'll find out soon enough what Murdoch has planned for him.

Meanwhile...

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...fund-post-brexit-withdrawals?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Alty]

*sigh*

You just don't get it, do you? Oh well.

 

[smat]

Donald Tusk
@eucopresident
We wish UK as close partner. Access to single market means acceptance of all 4 freedoms. No single market à la carte

 

[CEngelbrecht]

 

[CEngelbrecht]

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Interesting:

http://www.gponline.com/brexit-leave-nhs-facing-500m-a-week-shortfall-2030/article/1401105

 

[Veggie Legs]

Interesting:

http://www.gponline.com/brexit-leave-nhs-facing-500m-a-week-shortfall-2030/article/1401105

The NHS will be privatised by 2030 so I wouldn't worry.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Interesting:

http://www.gponline.com/brexit-leave-nhs-facing-500m-a-week-shortfall-2030/article/1401105

My wife is one of 2 British nurses out of around 18 who work o n the ward. A lot of them come from EU countries. A lot of them are quite young and mobile. Government really needs to be clear about the status of such people. As if any jobs come up in the next few weeks I'm sure they'd be tempted to get out of the UK. Similarly I doubt very many EU health-care workers are looking to the UK as a good destination at the moment.

I think the NHS was dying anyway (nursing bursaries were recently replaced by loans so it's not really an attractive career for Brits), leaving the EU may well just hasten its demise.

 

[thespus]

I haven't set foot in the UK since 2011, and largely have followed Brexit from German and American sources. Can someone explain to me the benefits of leaving the EU? Preferably in the economic realm; we took our country back contains no logic or substance, not to mention the hypocrisy.

A few observations from my perspective: the pound dropped, any rising market % =/= net gain if denominated in Sterling; high-skills young professionals in STEM fields, largely Remain voters, might leave the country in search of employment in the EU; immigrant medical workers with uncertain statuses may choose to leave the country, weakening the quality of medical practice.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I haven't set foot in the UK since 2011, and largely have followed Brexit from German and American sources. Can someone explain to me the benefits of leaving the EU?

Controlling our own borders, writing out own legislations, negotiating our own trade deals etc.

 

[silkyman]

*sigh*

You just don't get it, do you? Oh well.

If you want to hero worship the guy, have at it.

I think he's a c***.

 

[silkyman]

Controlling our own borders, writing out own legislations, negotiating our own trade deals etc.

First two... Not if we want free access to the EU market. Last one. OK. Yes we can. Doesn't mean that they will be better deals than we would have as a part of the EU. (Not that we've actually got any negotiators to do the negotiating...)

But this has been done over and over. We'll just have to wait and see whether we're eversoslightly better off, about the same, or utterly bollocked.

 

[thespus]

Controlling our own borders, writing out own legislations, negotiating our own trade deals etc.

The vast majority of economists I've seen quoted predict you will be getting worse trade deals. And it makes sense—why would you receive better deals when negotiating from a (relatively) weaker position and, at least for the short term, political/economic/etc. uncertainty?

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

I haven't set foot in the UK since 2011, and largely have followed Brexit from German and American sources. Can someone explain to me the benefits of leaving the EU? Preferably in the economic realm; we took our country back contains no logic or substance, not to mention the hypocrisy.

1. £350m for the NHS per week.
2. Long term gains.
3. Some notion of sovereignty.
4. Immigrants can stop stealing the jobs in Hartlepool and Clacton.

Oh, you want a serious answer?

Maybe the establishment will take note that neo-liberalism is seriously shifting on some people. Maybe FPTP will be abolished if the main parties fracture enough?

Yeah, I am clutching at straws.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The vast majority of economists I've seen quoted predict you will be getting worse trade deals.

Worse trade deals than non-existent trade deals? The EU-US trade deal looks in doubt and the EU is still seemingly no closer to trade deals with India or China, meanwhile the US has done something of a u-turn on Obama's "back of the queue" comments.

And it makes sense—why would you receive better deals when negotiating from a (relatively) weaker position and, at least for the short term, political/economic/etc. uncertainty?

We're not negotiating from a stronger position from within the EU because we're not doing any of the negotiating in the first place, unelected commissioners are. The reason these deals take forever to put in place is because the EU is a vast and diverse collection of economies that are very difficult to find one-size-fits-all solutions for. The UK should have a much easier time of it.

And there's nothing "short term" about this vote. This is about choosing what sort of country we want the UK to be. The reaction in the US boggles my mind. The relationship we have with the EU is something Americans wouldn't accept in a million years.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

First two... Not if we want free access to the EU market. Last one. OK. Yes we can. Doesn't mean that they will be better deals than we would have as a part of the EU. (Not that we've actually got any negotiators to do the negotiating...)

But this has been done over and over. [...]

It has been done over and over, which is why I'm surprised that you're repeating this myth about us not controlling our own legislation. The part we'd have to comply with is with regard to what we manufacture and sell into the EU. That's the same when trading with any bloc. It represents a fraction of EU legislation. The freedom of movement thing we'll have to wait and see. It could be that we'll have to accept it or lose out, but whatever the case negotiations would have always started with the claim we must swallow it whether it's really off the table or not.

 

[silkyman]

Well that depends on which studies you look at and who you believe. The 65% number came from a study which basically said that every law passed by the eu was a uk law. But as this included things like rules and regulations concerning olive oil production and growing tobacco as well as other eu laws that really have no material effect on anyone in UK, it it essentially bollocks.

Which laws in particular have the UK not been able to overturn, or had foisted upon them that are of such grave concern? How many of these laws we have been passed on to us without our say so are just going to be copied and pasted into UK law, because they work anyway.

People say they have done research themselves, so let's have five laws that have been pushed onto the UK, which are demonstrably bad for the UK and the majority would want repealed?

Incidentally, the Brexit side either didn't know or does't care that manufacturing rules and regs are such a tiny part of things as they dedicated a large chunk of the awful Brexit The Movie to just that.

(33m 30s)
(John Oliver pulls this apart quite nicely in one of his pre-brexit videos... The laws they list don't actually relate...)

 

[Alty]

The vast majority of economists I've seen quoted predict you will be getting worse trade deals. And it makes sense—why would you receive better deals when negotiating from a (relatively) weaker position and, at least for the short term, political/economic/etc. uncertainty?

EG partly answers this above, but just to illustrate the point, Japanese officials came to UK officials in total and utter frustration over the EU-Japan trade negotiations. They were exasperated with the Commission and were begging us to help break the deadlock in negotiations.

We're in a far better position to negotiate such deals on our own than trying to make a deal work for us, as well as France, as well as Estonia, as well as Bulgaria etc etc.

The EU also forces British businesses to abide by regulations even if those businesses only trade within the UK. And some of these regulations are pointless and expensive.

To me it's about a lot more than economics, though. It's about democracy and a global vision for the future. It doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy to systematically discriminate against poor countries who'd like to sell their goods into Europe.

 

[silkyman]

That's a fair point, but us fucking off isn't actually going to help them to sell into Europe. The Japanese officials came to us in exasperation. Presumably the message to them now is.. 'Can't help mate. We've fucked off'.

No benefit to staying in as the second largest economy and actually using our weight within the bloc to try and fix these things? Less likely to happen of course when almost a third of our MEPs are only there with a mandate to tear down the relationship completely.