The England Squad thread

[mnb089mnb]

See if Wilfried Zaha is met with abuse or apathy now then.

Abuse and apathy are the two words I'd associate with England supporters' views of their national team.

 

[Stagat]

True that.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Trying to draw up black and white rules about what nation someone should represent is impossible in the modern day of migration and mobility. There's endless permutations of birth, family/parenthood circumstances, and childhood circumstances.

Allowing the individual to make their own choice, ideally based on what nation they personally most identify with obviously, is the only way. But yes any system based on personal choice is open to manipulation and players making a choice for reasons other than their personal identity.

Such as choosing a nation they are more likely to get selected for rather than the nation they actually identify which. I.e. the Matt Ritchie scenario, whereby the Scottish FA dug through his family history and then approached his agent. Our former lad is the most Hampshirite southern softy you could ever wish to meet. He told Scotland that 'he feels Scottish' - and that was deemed good enough to seal the deal. Call me skeptical sure, but who the hell am I to call him a liar?

Or such as a player choosing England based purely on the fact it would probably earn him more money and provide a higher profile career than the other UK nations, IF he turned out to be good enough. Again he'll tell the press that he feels English. The Scots or Welsh or whoever can be skeptical and cynical of course, but again who's to say the individual is lying?

Regulate the way Football Associations act towards mixed nationality players and how they can approach them. Don't attempt regulate how people select from multiple nations, forcing a player down one path because their individual upbringing falls into a specific bucket - that's a minefield.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

To be fair Dier has come and and said before that he feels Portuguese, and the real culture clash was when he came back to England. He said that he chose England because of his family and that it "wouldn't be right" if he had the chance to play for us but turned it down. I wonder if he regrets that now...

 

[Skinner]

We'll regret losing Zaha if he keeps improving the way he has since his return to Palace. The numbers don't show it but he's very creative, starting to boss most games on his own. Hopefully Benteke can boost his numbers for him.

The fact Townsend gets into the squad and Wilf don't shows, to me anyway, that reputation comes into play more than showing on the pitch.

 

[HarvSFC]

Did you not realise that with the whole Clyne/Johnson situation?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

We'll regret losing Zaha if he keeps improving the way he has since his return to Palace. The numbers don't show it but he's very creative, starting to boss most games on his own. Hopefully Benteke can boost his numbers for him.

The fact Townsend gets into the squad and Wilf don't shows, to me anyway, that reputation comes into play more than showing on the pitch.

The last time Zaha was involved in an England squad he had to be banished from the set-up indefinitely because he couldn't behave himself.

 

[JimJams]

LAD!

 

[Skinner]

The last time Zaha was involved in an England squad he had to be banished from the set-up indefinitely because he couldn't behave himself.

And that has to do with....?

The England squad have hardly been angels recently.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

And that has to do with....?

He started a fight with Ravel Morrison and then refused to pass to him for the rest of the game.

 

[JimJams]

That guarantees you a place in the starting 11 nowadays.

 

[Skinner]

He started a fight with Ravel Morrison and then refused to pass to him for the rest of the game.

But it has nothing to with me feeling we'll regret it in the future.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Zaha was on the bench against Wales U21 in 2014, not sure he could have passed to Morrison from there.

There was a time when Adnan Januzaj was the next big thing and "England should cap him". You never can tell with youth players how they're going to turn out.

 

[St. Juste]

See if Wilfried Zaha is met with abuse or apathy now then.

Well, almost certainly apathy. And the reasons why were explained clearly in the previous page.

I brough up Owen Coyle but forgot there is a much more recent example, Arfield playing for Canada instead of Scotland. I forgot because it wasn't important, Arfield wasn't good enough for Scotland, he received no abuse. Most people actually hoped he did quite well for them.

Trying to draw up black and white rules about what nation someone should represent is impossible in the modern day of migration and mobility. There's endless permutations of birth, family/parenthood circumstances, and childhood circumstances.

Allowing the individual to make their own choice, ideally based on what nation they personally most identify with obviously, is the only way. But yes any system based on personal choice is open to manipulation and players making a choice for reasons other than their personal identity.

Such as choosing a nation they are more likely to get selected for rather than the nation they actually identify which. I.e. the Matt Ritchie scenario, whereby the Scottish FA dug through his family history and then approached his agent. Our former lad is the most Hampshirite southern softy you could ever wish to meet. He told Scotland that 'he feels Scottish' - and that was deemed good enough to seal the deal. Call me skeptical sure, but who the hell am I to call him a liar?

Or such as a player choosing England based purely on the fact it would probably earn him more money and provide a higher profile career than the other UK nations, IF he turned out to be good enough. Again he'll tell the press that he feels English. The Scots or Welsh or whoever can be skeptical and cynical of course, but again who's to say the individual is lying?

Regulate the way Football Associations act towards mixed nationality players and how they can approach them. Don't attempt regulate how people select from multiple nations, forcing a player down one path because their individual upbringing falls into a specific bucket - that's a minefield.

What?

Where on earth is the evidence for that? Do you think the Scottish FA go around looking into the past history of, at the time, low profile championship players? What's more likely is that Ritchie knew, most people know the nationalities of their grandparents, and him or his agent contacted Scotland. In fact, I checked for Ritchie and it's even more clear cut than that:

"I'm half Scottish, my dad is Scottish and I'm really looking forward to it."

Ritchie continued: "My granddad was in the navy, which is what brought him down to Portsmouth but they [grandparents] were both from Edinburgh. They are not with us any more but they would be proud and my dad is also."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/31909618

Right, so his dad and both his grandparents are Scottish? Making him far more Scottish than McGeady or McCarthy are Irish. The SFA were not certainly not digging into his family history. Given his substantial family connection to Scotland, it's no stretch to say he at least feels partly Scottish - but lets kid ourselves, if he was good enough he would be playing for England.

Your following paragraph is more sage, as from the Grealish example (a clearly awful player, but never mind) choosing England comes with huge additional sponsorship and commercial money. Oliver Burke, also heavily touted by England, turned this down but a 13 year old kid isn't going to. It's incredibly cynical from the FA but it's an organisation I hold in the lowest possible light so I'm not surprised in the slightest.

To be fair Dier has come and and said before that he feels Portuguese, and the real culture clash was when he came back to England. He said that he chose England because of his family and that it "wouldn't be right" if he had the chance to play for us but turned it down. I wonder if he regrets that now...

I doubt he regrets it, it's not as if he'd get in the Portuguese team anyway.

Zaha was on the bench against Wales U21 in 2014, not sure he could have passed to Morrison from there.

There was a time when Adnan Januzaj was the next big thing and "England should cap him". You never can tell with youth players how they're going to turn out.

For all people waxed lyrical about what a nice guy Hodgson was that showed his true colours - the home nations have a gentlemans agreement to not take non UK players through Januzaj would be equally eligible for all UK nations on that basis but may be wrong on that. Matt Le Tissier and other Channel Island and Isle of Man players certainly are.

As it is a gentlemans agreement, I think everyone knew that England would abandon it whenever it suited them but completely classless from "good guy" Hodgson.

Such is the way of modern footballing the English national team, with its boundless wealth, will morph into something similar to the English cricket team, where nationality doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

[JimJams]

I doubt he regrets it, it's not as if he'd get in the Portuguese team anyway.

William Carvalho is just a slower less aggressive Dier. So yeah, he probably would. The current Portugal side is not made up of great players.

 

[St. Juste]

William Carvalho is just a slower less aggressive Dier. So yeah, he probably would. The current Portugal side is not made up of great players.

I'd put both Carvalho and Danilo ahead of Dier - who is a converted centre back who has never shined in European competition.

The second point is correct, however, Dier happens to be competing in central midfield which is by far their strongest area.

With regards to some of the previous posts, what if Harry Winks were to suddenly declare for Germany after their FA persuaded him to do so. Would he get abuse?

Hmmm....

Or replace with pretty much anyone who makes their debut, Reece Oxford etc. The England fans would be fuming.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

What?

Where on earth is the evidence for that? Do you think the Scottish FA go around looking into the past history of, at the time, low profile championship players? What's more likely is that Ritchie knew, most people know the nationalities of their grandparents, and him or his agent contacted Scotland. In fact, I checked for Ritchie and it's even more clear cut than that:

"I'm half Scottish, my dad is Scottish and I'm really looking forward to it."

Ritchie continued: "My granddad was in the navy, which is what brought him down to Portsmouth but they [grandparents] were both from Edinburgh. They are not with us any more but they would be proud and my dad is also."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/31909618

Right, so his dad and both his grandparents are Scottish? Making him far more Scottish than McGeady or McCarthy are Irish. The SFA were not certainly not digging into his family history. Given his substantial family connection to Scotland, it's no stretch to say he at least feels partly Scottish - but lets kid ourselves, if he was good enough he would be playing for England.

Your following paragraph is more sage, as from the Grealish example (a clearly awful player, but never mind) choosing England comes with huge additional sponsorship and commercial money. Oliver Burke, also heavily touted by England, turned this down but a 13 year old kid isn't going to. It's incredibly cynical from the FA but it's an organisation I hold in the lowest possible light so I'm not surprised in the slightest.

In the instance of Matt Ritchie (I haven't a clue how the SFA act generally speaking, obviously) he's an individual I know a little about. I certainly couldn't speak about any other names you've mentioned.

Perhaps the SFA digging is over-egging it, as I don't know practically how a national FA actually know who might be eligible on paper for them. Some process of research is my assumption. But I do know that a phone call from Scotland to his agent started the process of his callup and registration with them.

The SFA's approach came early 2015 when it was clear that Ritchie would end up a Premier League player sooner than later, as he was of that standard (and still is despite briefly dropping back), be it with Bournemouth or another club. Bids or enquiries from most lower half PL clubs came in and it was obvious where his career was going.

Based on the flow of events, it's my belief the SFA looked into his background around that time his profile grew. Because it was at that moment in early 2015 when there was widespread talk of a January move to the Premier League - that the SFA got on the phone, and that SFA representatives appeared once or twice down here at games.

Gordon Strachan said publicly at the time that he'd been impressed watching Ritchie for "3-4 months" prior to his callup. Now, it's possible he knew and had made those assessments by obtaining highlights footage. But we at Bournemouth thought that to be bullshit from Strachan, because neither he or any SFA scout had come down or shown any interest prior to Jan 2015, when those links to the Premier League began in anger. We don't think Strachan had a clue.

I know he's spent his entire life (up until this summer's move to Newcastle) living in Hampshire. I know he was/is a big Portsmouth fan, a result of his dad taking him there as a kid, whilst Ritchie worked through the Hampshire youth football ranks into Portsmouth's setup. Whilst I'm sure he respected his family past, I know people in the local Hampshire youth football scene had no idea there was a Scottish link in him. And I know he never once visited Scotland at any stage during his child or adult life prior to his callup. You think he might have done at some point had he felt an affinity to part of his family's past, but that's by the by.

Whilst I'm not going to call Ritchie a liar for telling Strachan that he feels Scottish - because that would be ridiclous, I'm not in his head. But it is fair to say I was skeptical.

I gather he's done rather well for Scotland, and all power to him for when Newcastle win promotion, as his efforts for Bournemouth deserve every future success.

 

[St. Juste]

I know he's spent his entire life (up until this summer's move to Newcastle) living in Hampshire. I know he was/is a big Portsmouth fan, a result of his dad taking him there as a kid, whilst Ritchie worked through the Hampshire youth football ranks into Portsmouth's setup. Whilst I'm sure he respected his family past, I know people in the local Hampshire youth football scene had no idea there was a Scottish link in him. And I know he never once visited Scotland at any stage during his child or adult life prior to his callup. You think he might have done at some point had he felt an affinity to part of his family's past, but that's by the by.

Whilst I'm not going to call Ritchie a liar for telling Strachan that he feels Scottish - because that would be ridiclous, I'm not in his head. But it is fair to say I was skeptical.

I gather he's done rather well for Scotland, and all power to him for when Newcastle win promotion, as his efforts for Bournemouth deserve every future success.

It's not really about respect but Ritchie surely knew his dad and grandparents were Scottish? This is something people tend to know. I don't think not going to Scotland changes this, if you live in Hampshire it's easier (and cheaper) to go to Spain or France so entirely logical to do that instead. It didn't say where his grandparents lived but if he has no more family living there, there is no incentive to go. I'd imagine fewer than 10% of English people have ever been to Scotland, but it's probably more like 80% vice versa. Complete stab in the dark, mind.

Of course Ritchie thinks he is English, and he is, if he does have any affinity for us that's a bonus - I'm sure several others, like Matt Gilks, didn't have any whatsoever. Although, ironically, it helped him get his current move.

If Strachan did contact Ritchie then it's good initiative from him, it would also make sense for Ritchie himself to make the call and I imagine one or the other would have happened eventually. Playing for Scotland isn't going to make you much money, but it will raise your profile to at least a certain extent, and regular internationals command premium transfer fees and wages.

He has helped us a lot, one of our recent success stories along with Anya. More like him would be more than welcome.

I don't imagine England fans care Ritchie plays for Scotland, we don't care Arfield plays for Canada, but frustration at England making a concerted effort to take our best young players (Burke and now Dembele) is obviously going to cause annoyance. They will undoubtedly be doing the same to Wales and Ireland too. How would their fans react if Germany starting taking their best under 21 players?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Well, almost certainly apathy.

ha ha

 

[Nilsson]

I don't imagine England fans care Ritchie plays for Scotland, we don't care Arfield plays for Canada, but frustration at England making a concerted effort to take our best young players (Burke and now Dembele) is obviously going to cause annoyance. They will undoubtedly be doing the same to Wales and Ireland too. How would their fans react if Germany starting taking their best under 21 players?

Dembele wasn't born in Scotland and neither of his parents are Scottish. You have no right to be annoyed about anything. My sources tell me he absolutely hates living in Scotland and plans to leave as soon as he's old enough, I say good luck to the kid.

 

[St. Juste]

ha ha

For someone who kicked off this discussion, you sure have been quiet since.

Coming to the realisation your initial post was perhaps out of place?

Dembele wasn't born in Scotland and neither of his parents are Scottish. You have no right to be annoyed about anything. My sources tell me he absolutely hates living in Scotland and plans to leave as soon as he's old enough, I say good luck to the kid.

Are the sources people living in your head? Nobody forced him and his family to move here, and nobody is forcing him to stay.

He developed his footballing skills in Scotland - very similar to Patrick Vieira moving to France aged 4.

As I said, were the circumstances reversed, English fans would be absolutely furious.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

i'm detecting some seethe, can anyone else confirm?

 

[St. Juste]

i'm detecting some seethe, can anyone else confirm?

I dunno, you seem to be doing alright.

Perhaps regretting your initial post a little.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I dunno, you seem to be doing alright.

Perhaps regretting your initial post a little.

Why would I be? I've been proven right by the reception Zaha has had (and Iwobi already had). The noble Englishmen have proved themselves superior to the savage Scottish hill-folk once again

 

[St. Juste]

Why would I be? I've been proven right by the reception Zaha has had (and Iwobi already had). The noble Englishmen have proved themselves superior to the savage Scottish hill-folk once again

Completely blew it with the last line, unlucky.

Of course, with a much bigger population England will have far more hateful trolls than Scotland.

These people should be pitied.

 

[Nilsson]

Are the sources people living in your head? Nobody forced him and his family to move here, and nobody is forcing him to stay.

He developed his footballing skills in Scotland - very similar to Patrick Vieira moving to France aged 4.

As I said, were the circumstances reversed, English fans would be absolutely furious.

Oliver Burke, who you keep mentioning, developed his footballing skills in England, should he have decided to represent England with this in mind? I don't think so.

And there's no way the circumstances could be reversed (unless we lived in a parallel universe where Scotland are bigger than England).

 

[St. Juste]

Oliver Burke, who you keep mentioning, developed his footballing skills in England, should he have decided to represent England with this in mind? I don't think so.

And there's no way the circumstances could be reversed (unless we lived in a parallel universe where Scotland are bigger than England).

I do think so, I think England are significantly more entitled to think Burke should play for them than Dembele - who really has no connection whatsoever.

For whatever reason Burke has decided to forgo additional money and play for Scotland, both at youth level and senior level. I don't know why, perhaps his parents, but he clearly feels strong affinity to Scotland. To turn down additional millions is admirable, and indicative of quite a strong character, which is probably why he also left the Premier League bubble to go to Bundesliga. Good for him, it'd be far easy to have committed to England and gone to Burnley.

For a more famous example, consider Rod Stewart - a guy who is clearly English is every way, but for whatever reason, his father you'd imagine, he considers himself Scottish, supports the Scottish national team, and Celtic. Who knows why, I doubt he's ever even lived here. Similarly, Andy Murray spend most of his teenage years in Spain and has lived in England for some time - nobody doubts he is Scottish, he even supports Scottish independence! On the flip side Tony Blair was born in Scotland, to Scottish parents, and went to school in Scotland but has always considered, and convinced others, that he's English. Nationality can be a complex thing, Burke clearly considers himself Scottish and has incurred significant financial loss for it. Dembele might or might not consider himself Scottish but one thing is for certain - he's not English. You don't develop an affinity for a country as a 5 year old when neither of your parents are from there. He's done it entirely for the money - which is fair enough from his perspective, if a bit frustrating.

With regards to your second point, absolutely this could be replicated if Germany started a concerted effort to take the most promising English youngsters. Would anyone be bothered if Rashford switched last year from England to Germany? Er, yes, of course they would.

 

[Nilsson]

With regards to your second point, absolutely this could be replicated if Germany started a concerted effort to take the most promising English youngsters. Would anyone be bothered if Rashford switched last year from England to Germany? Er, yes, of course they would.

But that wouldn't be the situation replicated. Rashford is English with no links to Germany, this Dembele kid has links to England and Scotland.

If a 13 year old of African descent, who was born in Germany and moved to England at a young age, decided to join the Germany international set-up, I wouldn't give a shit. Largely because the 13 year old clearly wouldn't be English and has every right to play for the country of his birth, and also because he'd be fucking 13, being good at 18/19 doesn't guarantee a career of any note, let alone being good at 13.

 

[Skinner]

Why does playing for England bring in more money, btw?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Sponsorship deals.