2024/25 League Two Promotion Thread

[valefan16]

Hang on a minute, you can’t suggest Bradford City might struggle in L1 now it’s apparently become a Championship 2, and then refer to past history where it wasn’t deemed comparable to a so-called “Champ 2” - as if this somehow supports your point, it doesn’t.

If we’re applying the logic that L1 all of a sudden is this lower league powerhouse, then let’s look at finances and what clubs spend/generate here and now - not historically.

The difference between City and Vale is, we won’t need an owner like ‘Carol’ to pump in millions just to be competitive in L1. We’ll do this purely through what we generate - of which, our turnover in L2 is higher than yours in L1.

But we have an owner like Carol so not sure what your point is? That's like saying you'll do better than Bournemouth because they rely on their owners yet they are in the Prem, your League 2, We also have made big sales from the youth side (another huge investment now paying off) of over 7 figures this year...

Looking at your accounts you lost 400k so how are you going to be more competitive from purely income? Also worth pointing out despite these claims you've barely been competitive at the top end of L1 in 20 years bar the odd Play Off flirt and have ended up down here for 11 of those!

League One requires massive investment more often than not these days. If you go up and stay up you've done well initially its far tougher now than 6 years ago.

 

[FiRTHYY]

But we have an owner like Carol so not sure what your point is? That's like saying you'll do better than Bournemouth because they rely on their owners yet they are in the Prem, your League 2, We also have made big sales from the youth side (another huge investment now paying off) of over 7 figures this year...

Looking at your accounts you lost 400k so how are you going to be more competitive from purely income? Also worth pointing out despite these claims you've barely been competitive at the top end of L1 in 20 years bar the odd Play Off flirt and have ended up down here for 11 of those!

League One requires massive investment more often than not these days. If you go up and stay up you've done well initially its far tougher now than 6 years ago.

So, what’s the end goal? Promotion and just hope ‘Carol’ flings a few million to give you half a chance - riveting prospect.

We lost £400k over 2 seasons - on the back of sacking managers.

Our last stint in L1 saw us finish top 7 three times in 3 consecutive seasons - use that as your benchmark.

Out of interest, let’s say it’s all about money (even though success in football is proven time and time again not always to be about money) and we have a playing budget of £6-£7m. Where, in your view, does this place us in a L1 table without Brum, Hudders, Wrexham and Stockport?

 

[loz]

I look forward to Bradford tearing L1 a new one next season.

Stupid post. Early season it was Chezza fans giving it large(amongst 2 or 3 others). If we go up, there is no way we will be able to tear up d1 but we should have the resources to consolidate. We already have players who can perform in the division and contracts are likely to prevent us making wholesale changes. However, we can strengthen as and when we are able just like the majority of teams in that division. What is important is how well clubs are run(look at where us, Swindon and Vale are, somewhere none of us should be if our clubs had been run properly). I remember Burnley being minutes from going out of the league yet a few years later I was at their ground and virtually everything in fans visual range was sponsored. When you are run properly and showing progress, local businesses want to get involved with you.

 

[valefan16]

So, what’s the end goal? Promotion and just hope ‘Carol’ flings a few million to give you half a chance - riveting prospect.

We lost £400k over 2 seasons - on the back of sacking managers.

Our last stint in L1 saw us finish top 7 three times in 3 consecutive seasons - use that as your benchmark.

Out of interest, let’s say it’s all about money (even though success in football is proven time and time again not always to be about money) and we have a playing budget of £6-£7m. Where, in your view, does this place us in a L1 table without Brum, Hudders, Wrexham and Stockport?

The end goal is a sustainable football club which is why the huge investments are being put in, Carol puts the money in we push on, she's the best owner we've had and its far more riveting than previous owners, you clearly know little about Carol and what she has done to transform the club itself and has grown it in her tenure fan base wise and facility wise. You have to invest to grown and become more sustainable.

A playing budget of 6-7m in League One would be probably average but the point is these boys are in there, along with your Bolton's, Barnsley's etc, next season likely Derby, Luton with huge budget and Plymouth... if not one of them the next likely would be Stoke who have one of the richest owners there is! (Hope so!) You get exceptions to the rule and if it was all about money, us, Carlisle and MK probably have L2 wrapped up this season but the gulf in finance with us 3 and this level is far less than the giants in L1 and lets be real 90% of the time in football it is the big money boys who win the prizes.

 

[loz]

The end goal is a sustainable football club which is why the huge investments are being put in, Carol puts the money in we push on, she's the best owner we've had and its far more riveting than previous owners, you clearly know little about Carol and what she has done to transform the club itself and has grown it in her tenure fan base wise and facility wise. You have to invest to grown and become more sustainable.

A playing budget of 6-7m in League One would be probably average but the point is these boys are in there, along with your Bolton's, Barnsley's etc, next season likely Derby, Luton with huge budget and Plymouth... if not one of them the next likely would be Stoke who have one of the richest owners there is! (Hope so!) You get exceptions to the rule and if it was all about money, us, Carlisle and MK probably have L2 wrapped up this season but the gulf in finance with us 3 and this level is far less than the giants in L1 and lets be real 90% of the time in football it is the big money boys who win the prizes.

I think we have been agreeing with your last sentence but only a few clubs are outrageously rich. Should us , Vale and Notts for example go up, I don't think the wealth of the majority would overwhelm us.

 

[Grimsby Road]

The end goal is a sustainable football club which is why the huge investments are being put in, Carol puts the money in we push on, she's the best owner we've had and its far more riveting than previous owners, you clearly know little about Carol and what she has done to transform the club itself and has grown it in her tenure fan base wise and facility wise. You have to invest to grown and become more sustainable.

A playing budget of 6-7m in League One would be probably average but the point is these boys are in there, along with your Bolton's, Barnsley's etc, next season likely Derby, Luton with huge budget and Plymouth... if not one of them the next likely would be Stoke who have one of the richest owners there is! (Hope so!) You get exceptions to the rule and if it was all about money, us, Carlisle and MK probably have L2 wrapped up this season but the gulf in finance with us 3 and this level is far less than the giants in L1 and lets be real 90% of the time in football it is the big money boys who win the prizes.

It would sit low now i think Lincolns accounts showed a 2 to 3 million loss and their turnover is 10 million ish ; their CEO said it was 19th in the league which is what 5th bottom they seem one of the better run clubs tbf . I get Bradford are a big club not doubting that but the significance of big crowds is seemingly dwarfed by the capital some of the big donators are willing to put in that's the thing a lot of legacy fans who don't look at the balance sheet would say Bradford big crowds should be Champ too big for league 2 but with an owner who seems relatively sensible and loses 6 figures a season rather than millions being in a moderate position would be good you would think unless they do get big investment .

I do think that's a thing in general though , especially with the more traditional league clubs , their fans see them as what they were if that makes sense which probably raises the expectation above the reality of the situation - yes a few have gone through the leagues but it's taken massive investment Brighton , Brentford even Bournemouth have shelled 100's of million on going right through .


I'm not saying we shouldn't try to go up /through the leagues but I suppose my thought is managers and players take a battering from the expectation of what has gone before them rather than the reality of the situation now .... I'm waffling on now

 

[FiRTHYY]

The end goal is a sustainable football club which is why the huge investments are being put in, Carol puts the money in we push on, she's the best owner we've had and its far more riveting than previous owners, you clearly know little about Carol and what she has done to transform the club itself and has grown it in her tenure fan base wise and facility wise. You have to invest to grown and become more sustainable.

A playing budget of 6-7m in League One would be probably average but the point is these boys are in there, along with your Bolton's, Barnsley's etc, next season likely Derby, Luton with huge budget and Plymouth... if not one of them the next likely would be Stoke who have one of the richest owners there is! (Hope so!) You get exceptions to the rule and if it was all about money, us, Carlisle and MK probably have L2 wrapped up this season but the gulf in finance with us 3 and this level is far less than the giants in L1 and lets be real 90% of the time in football it is the big money boys who win the prizes.

But that’s the thing, how is chucking millions into Port Vale sustainable, unless you can source passive income from it - that or be successful, but judging by your original point, you’re confident you’ll struggle regardless.

Yes, you can lean on academy sales. I think most clubs can. I think we generate £500k-£1m on average per season. It’s still a drop in the ocean by the sounds of things.

We acknowledge a £7m budget is about midtable, so can we go back to the original point now? Why will we struggle, unless we both hold different definitions of the word?

The irony is, our largest playing budget since the Championship was in L1 - we were subsequently relegated.

 

[Gladders]

Amazing how easy it is to get Bradford fans all defensive. They're still Premier league don't you know, of course Lge 1 will be no problem for them.

 

[FiRTHYY]

Amazing how easy it is to get Bradford fans all defensive. They're still Premier league don't you know, of course Lge 1 will be no problem for them.

I’m literally asking a question and NO ONE can answer me!

 

[LS Bantam]

Ooooh Stevenage away, I’m so scared.

 

[Kauto Star]

Amazing how easy it is to get Bradford fans all defensive. They're still Premier league don't you know, of course Lge 1 will be no problem for them.

Id prefer to concentrate on getting there first. We still have a lot to do and there will be twists and turns every week until May 3rd.

 

[The_Viking_Magpie]

Ooooh Stevenage away, I’m so scared.

Anybody else spot the irony?

 

[valefan16]

But that’s the thing, how is chucking millions into Port Vale sustainable, unless you can source passive income from it - that or be successful, but judging by your original point, you’re confident you’ll struggle regardless.

Yes, you can lean on academy sales. I think most clubs can. I think we generate £500k-£1m on average per season. It’s still a drop in the ocean by the sounds of things.

We acknowledge a £7m budget is about midtable, so can we go back to the original point now? Why will we struggle, unless we both hold different definitions of the word?

The irony is, our largest playing budget since the Championship was in L1 - we were subsequently relegated.

The investment in the youth team is one way, we have since sold Dipepa for 7 figures, a kid to Villa for a record school boy fee, Miley to Newcastle for 200k all these with sell on's, plus Joel N'Dala which is set to net us a few bob in the summer when he is sold from Man City permanent.

We've invested in completing the Corporate/Hospitality facilities in the Lorne Street which increases income, plus the previously mentioned Vale Campus which see's us purchase the dimensions centre and link up with the college so end up with a massive multi pitch facility which long term would improve things again.

For all the talk you say, with you're 17k crowds we both had roughly the same £8 Million income mark so we are obviously doing something right, just have Carol topping up our expenditure by £4 Million which whilst some is on playing budget is also on improving the club facilities and set up to make it more financially viable.

Very few clubs though live without input from owners, we are just incredibly lucky that ours will never likely ask for a penny of it back and its the only time in the last 20 years or so following Vale I haven't feared for the club and its future and have been able to enjoy (or not!) purely the football.

In terms of the struggle, I said it would be hard to compete... i.e. the top end and stand by that, compared to the previous spells in there it felt incredibly hard, will likely be easier next time with our bigger budget but going into it with a modest budget by our standards the previous two years it was tough, got up to 9th on the crest of the promotion wave but once January set in it became a slog, really didn't enjoy it at all. Mansfield are a prime example of a similar club experiencing the same as we did in our first season almost carbon copying it.

Its not that its impossible on a mediocre budget but its tougher in my view as the quality at the top is much better (hence you've seen in recent seasons a gulf in top v bottom 10/12.

 

[Son of Cod]

I’m literally asking a question and NO ONE can answer me!

View attachment 21748

How about the fact that your giant manbaby of a CEO is an intolerable oaf who has overseen an era of relative incompetence and that while things have clicked this season you've also protested against your chairman and ownership several times over the last couple of years? You say Mansfield, Wrexham and Stockport aren't relevant to you guys but one thing all these clubs have done in recent years is foster a sense of togetherness that runs right from the boardroom, through to the playing and coaching staff and onto the fans. I don't necessarily see this with Bradford.

Your club's recruitment strategy is fairly old skool and archaic too, it's very much let's outbid other clubs in the division and land the better players in the division from last season who will probably be okay next season but also might well have peaked and probably aren't worth taking a punt on. As big a club as you are at L2, there will be more competition for the players you want to sign from more monied clubs in L1.

I don't agree with this notion that whoever goes up this season will struggle as a summer is a long time in football and momentum can also play a part. However, your argument seems to be we won't struggle because we got to the playoffs a few times at that level a decade ago which is of course absolute nonsense. Football has changed and being ahead of the curve and progressive matters more than it used to. I just don't see Bradford as being in a position to best harnesses their assets under the current regime.

I'll also caveat the above by saying I've got a lot of time for you as a club and set of supporters and I hope if you do go up you can make a decent fist of it.

 

[FiRTHYY]

The investment in the youth team is one way, we have since sold Dipepa for 7 figures, a kid to Villa for a record school boy fee, Miley to Newcastle for 200k all these with sell on's, plus Joel N'Dala which is set to net us a few bob in the summer when he is sold from Man City permanent.

We've invested in completing the Corporate/Hospitality facilities in the Lorne Street which increases income, plus the previously mentioned Vale Campus which see's us purchase the dimensions centre and link up with the college so end up with a massive multi pitch facility which long term would improve things again.

For all the talk you say, with you're 17k crowds we both had roughly the same £8 Million income mark so we are obviously doing something right, just have Carol topping up our expenditure by £4 Million which whilst some is on playing budget is also on improving the club facilities and set up to make it more financially viable.

Very few clubs though live without input from owners, we are just incredibly lucky that ours will never likely ask for a penny of it back and its the only time in the last 20 years or so following Vale I haven't feared for the club and its future and have been able to enjoy (or not!) purely the football.

In terms of the struggle, I said it would be hard to compete... i.e. the top end and stand by that, compared to the previous spells in there it felt incredibly hard, will likely be easier next time with our bigger budget but going into it with a modest budget by our standards the previous two years it was tough, got up to 9th on the crest of the promotion wave but once January set in it became a slog, really didn't enjoy it at all. Mansfield are a prime example of a similar club experiencing the same as we did in our first season almost carbon copying it.

Its not that its impossible on a mediocre budget but its tougher in my view as the quality at the top is much better (hence you've seen in recent seasons a gulf in top v bottom 10/12.

Selling Dipepa was perfect timing really, wasn’t it? That’s years of development as opposed to churning 1 of these out every other season. Prior to Dipepa and the other lad, when was your other ‘big sale’? If you’re leaning on flogging academy products to top up your revenue, you’ll need more examples.

As for revenue, you know it’s not even remotely comparative, don’t you? You’re comparing your revenue in L1 against ours in L2. Income in L1 is vast compared to L2 - I’m not even sure why im writing this, it’s common sense. Projective revenue if we were to be promoted would be circa £12m-£13m. £4m-£5m higher than yours, WITHOUT investment.

 

[FiRTHYY]

How about the fact that your giant manbaby of a CEO is an intolerable oaf who has overseen an era of relative incompetence and that while things have clicked this season you've also protested against your chairman and ownership several times over the last couple of years? You say Mansfield, Wrexham and Stockport aren't relevant to you guys but one thing all these clubs have done in recent years is foster a sense of togetherness that runs right from the boardroom, through to the playing and coaching staff and onto the fans. I don't necessarily see this with Bradford.

Your club's recruitment strategy is fairly old skool and archaic too, it's very much let's outbid other clubs in the division and land the better players in the division from last season who will probably be okay next season but also might well have peaked and probably aren't worth taking a punt on. As big a club as you are at L2, there will be more competition for the players you want to sign from more monied clubs in L1.

I don't agree with this notion that whoever goes up this season will struggle as a summer is a long time in football and momentum can also play a part. However, your argument seems to be we won't struggle because we got to the playoffs a few times at that level a decade ago which is of course absolute nonsense. Football has changed and being ahead of the curve and progressive matters more than it used to. I just don't see Bradford as being in a position to best harnesses their assets under the current regime.

I'll also caveat the above by saying I've got a lot of time for you as a club and set of supporters and I hope if you do go up you can make a decent fist of it.

Regards to Sparks, it really does depend who you speak to. If you gather your intel from Twitter and other socials, you’ll come across your average, spotty teenager who can’t think for themselves. I don’t have an issue with Sparks. Yes, there’s been mistakes, but in the main he’s tried to sign the right managers and given them competitive budgets for this level. You can’t really do much more. Except this season, we have. Bringing in David Sharpe (ex-Wigan/Mansfield) is proving to be a good addition.

As for protests - there’s been one. About 50 or so kids outside the main stand last year. Wouldn’t call it a protest, but if you feel it supports your argument, go for it.

Being a mediocre club in L1 amongst bigger fish would actually help us - because we’re no longer a ‘big fish’ ourselves. Whereas in L2, you could argue we are. You won’t have opposition players walking out onto the VP pitch in awe. We see it before every game, players with their phones out, panning the stadium. In L1, it’s just another ground in-front of a large crowd.

 

[valefan16]

Selling Dipepa was perfect timing really, wasn’t it? That’s years of development as opposed to churning 1 of these out every other season. Prior to Dipepa and the other lad, when was your other ‘big sale’? If you’re leaning on flogging academy products to top up your revenue, you’ll need more examples.

As for revenue, you know it’s not even remotely comparative, don’t you? You’re comparing your revenue in L1 against ours in L2. Income in L1 is vast compared to L2 - I’m not even sure why im writing this, it’s common sense. Projective revenue if we were to be promoted would be circa £12m-£13m. £4m-£5m higher than yours, WITHOUT investment.

Ours is set to be £8 million this year... League Two according to our CEO the other week with the £12 million spend. Not sure where you're finding £4-5 Million from in L1 a few extra away fans isn't going to equate to that.

The Youth team was on its arse before Covid so its had 3-4 decent sales in the last 3 years (forgot Tommy MacDermott too who went to Burnley in the summer and has played this season for them), with some breaking through like Shorrock into our first team. Note three of our sales in the past 18 months are currently in the England set up already (Dipepa, Miley and Lawrie, plus Ndala who has gone on to do it with Man City). In 3-4 years its been churning it out which is outstanding compared to where it was.

Points irrelevant anyway if Carol is prepared to splash the cash then we will have a very good budget at that level. Doubt many Bournemouth, Brentford or Brighton fans are bothered by the fact they've had owners pump it in or Wrexham and Stockport to get successful as long as it isn't endangering the club, we've been skint since falling out the second tier in 2000 so got to enjoy it whilst it lasts!

 

[Son of Cod]

As for protests - there’s been one. About 50 or so kids outside the main stand last year. Wouldn’t call it a protest, but if you feel it supports your argument, go for it.

Well that's odd because when you didn't sell out your allocation at our place last season it was claimed the reason was because fans were protesting...

 

[FiRTHYY]

Ours is set to be £8 million this year... League Two according to our CEO the other week with the £12 million spend. Not sure where you're finding £4-5 Million from in L1 a few extra away fans isn't going to equate to that.

The Youth team was on its arse before Covid so its had 3-4 decent sales in the last 3 years (forgot Tommy MacDermott too who went to Burnley in the summer and has played this season for them), with some breaking through like Shorrock into our first team. Note three of our sales in the past 18 months are currently in the England set up already (Dipepa, Miley and Lawrie, plus Ndala who has gone on to do it with Man City). In 3-4 years its been churning it out which is outstanding compared to where it was.

Points irrelevant anyway if Carol is prepared to splash the cash then we will have a very good budget at that level. Doubt many Bournemouth, Brentford or Brighton fans are bothered by the fact they've had owners pump it in or Wrexham and Stockport to get successful as long as it isn't endangering the club, we've been skint since falling out the second tier in 2000 so got to enjoy it whilst it lasts!

If your projected turnover is £8m in L2, fair play to you. I’m doubtful, but we’ll see.

The fact that you can’t comprehend where the additional revenue will come from pretty much confirms you’re selling the potential of my club short - there’s 800k difference in solidarity payments alone (£1.7m in total).

We would shift an additional 4,000-5,000 ST’s. Attendances would increase to circa 20k average. We currently set the record in L2 for most money generated from sponsors (north of £1m annually) - this would increase.

The list goes on.

 

[FiRTHYY]

Well that's odd because when you didn't sell out your allocation at our place last season it was claimed the reason was because fans were protesting...

Apologies - and Grimsby.

But 700-800 didn’t get the memo.

 

[クレイグ]

The last page of this thread is the worst thing I've ever seen. And I've seen me naked.

I think we'd be okay in League One if we got promoted. Assuming we get promoted. Like Kauto says - need to get there first.

I'm gonna have to disagree with SoC saying we only sign good players from last season. We signed Tommy Leigh M8.

 

[kieran_vale]

11 games to go for us and 7 of them at home if want to look at the glass half full approach. In all honesty we need to be dispatching everyone of the teams who come to VP from now until the end of the season and maybe add in a win away too (preferably at Walsall or Crewe with them being six-pointers) to get autos. Do we have the ability to do it yes but also do I think DM will get so worried about losing instead of trying to win we’ll drop points probably to a non-promotion contender also yes.

Think playoffs is the most likely and I felt coming away from the game Tuesday night I don’t think us and Colchester have seen the last of each other this season.

 

[valefan16]

11 games to go for us and 7 of them at home if want to look at the glass half full approach. In all honesty we need to be dispatching everyone of the teams who come to VP from now until the end of the season and maybe add in a win away too (preferably at Walsall or Crewe with them being six-pointers) to get autos. Do we have the ability to do it yes but also do I think DM will get so worried about losing instead of trying to win we’ll drop points probably to a non-promotion contender also yes.

Think playoffs is the most likely and I felt coming away from the game Tuesday night I don’t think us and Colchester have seen the last of each other this season.

I envision Notts in the Play Offs, two more absolutely mammoth battles and with us doing the double of them obviously we then lose out in the Play Offs ala WBA all those years back!

Need 9 points from these three home games for Auto's for me, then come out favourably from a massive 7 days with Crewe A, Bradford H, Walsall A to set us up.

Bradford aside and Grimsby to a degree the home games are generally against sides mid-bottom end and we've only lost two at home so its possible we can get a big return from those 7 though. AFC Wimbledon Away will be huge, we never win at Walsall so despite their awful form probably can write that one off but Crewe we tend to do well (although they seem Jekyll and Hyde at the moment so see what Crewe we face) at and Carlisle are bottom so its open but I just don't think we have that killer instinct for auto's, as Ale and Vale Pod mentioned could of been out of sight against Harrogate, and had 2-3 before Colchester scored but don't punish teams and then it makes it knife edge.

Think first and foremost we need to focus on ensuring we are top 7 then if we do break third its a bonus at this stage. We've won 6 in 21 games now (although only lost 5) so its obvious where the problem is... DDDD

 

[lordofthepies]

Yeah you’re probably not far wrong there. Probably Exeter on a par with them for budget. It’s a very different league to how it was even 5 years ago as some money clubs from the Championship find themselves stuck down there some of the budgets you’re up against are frightening. Not to say it’s impossible to compete/survive but it does seem a glass ceiling as to what can achieve without risking bankruptcy.

It's depressing as hell that we survived in the Championship for nearly a decade without investment and with crowds never averaging above 7,000, but now even surviving in League One is a big task.

 

[valefan16]

It's depressing as hell that we survived in the Championship for nearly a decade without investment and with crowds never averaging above 7,000, but now even surviving in League One is a big task.

Thats the effect money has had on the game, long gone are the days sadly of Vale, Swindon, Crewe, Walsall and Grimsby battling it out for years on end with the likes of WBA, Wolves, Leicester and Forest week in week out.

Mad to think in 1998 we won 4-0 to stay up and sent Man City down! (and Stoke!)

 

[loz]

Thats the effect money has had on the game, long gone are the days sadly of Vale, Swindon, Crewe, Walsall and Grimsby battling it out for years on end with the likes of WBA, Wolves, Leicester and Forest week in week out.

Mad to think in 1998 we won 4-0 to stay up and sent Man City down! (and Stoke!)

The discussion was started by a poster saying how difficult it will be for any team promoted to survive in L1. Whereas none of us is likely to trouble the promotion contenders there, I think the likes of us; Vale, Notts and Donny will be able to bridge the income gap(sorry Wimbledon fans but I don't know enough about you). Obviously whichever of us goes up will have to strengthen and this will be done over a few windows but all of us already have some players capable of playing in d1. 2 years ago, we reached the POs and I said then that should we manage to go up, we would come straight back down. I don't feel that way now nor do I about other teams around us. In the meantime, enjoy this season's climax.

 

[jacobncfc]

I thought it was a comment on the relative low quality at the top of the division this season, which is kind of fair enough. It’s making for a very even and exciting season, but I don’t think anyone would be able to properly compete a league up without significantly improving their team.

It’s true that most clubs involved would probably have the resources to do so, though.