Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[Ebeneezer Goode]

At which point I guess you get into questioning what exactly a mental disorder is. And going back to your initial point about lack of evidence of it being a mental disorder yet we stil treat it with biological methods, how would whether it be a mental disorder or not alter how it is treated? Not got the time to look it up now but from purely anecdotal evidence the methods we are using now are not perfect but far more advanced than previous when it was seen as a mental illness needing mental/psychiatric help. The same arguments for homosexuality being a mental disorder that could therefore be cured with psychiatric help had been used in the past...and were obviously very damaging.

To my mind a mental illness is something that causes damage to the person or those around them. And there isn't a reason why being trans should (as opposed to schizophrenia, alcoholism etc.)

Re homosexuality: Once more biological information came out the idea that homosexuality is a disorder or choice that could be cured slowly lost those arguments...and with them people were allowed to live their lives, be it in the case of homosexuality becoming legal or in the form of transgender surgeries so that people can live their lives as they wish without negatively impacting you, me or them.

Trans, similarly, is not something that needs to be cured. And the current 'treatments' are to help people live as who they are, not focussed on curing a 'disorder' which is why I think the biological information is important and any mention of a 'mental disorder' is dangerous and damaging.

I see this as no different to people who're born believing they should be disabled. Instead of trying to learn how to cure the brain abnormality we're content to damage the body to conform to it instead. We're treating the symptom instead of the cause, which again ultimately seems more to do with politics, because we wouldn't dream of taking the same approach to Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I know you like to take the piss and think I'm some kind of MRA, I'm really not, I think they are as misguided and bigoted as their counterparts.

MorDon? More like MRADon, am I rite?

 

[blade1889]

I see this as no different to people who're born believing they should be disabled. Instead of trying to learn how to cure the brain abnormality we're content to damage the body to conform to it instead. We're treating the symptom instead of the cause, which again ultimately seems more to do with politics, because we wouldn't dream of taking the same approach to Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

My question then would be what do you suggest? Psychiatric help which in any cases I've heard of (will look properly tomorrow for some stats) does not help?

I dont really see your issue with people having gender reassignment surgery if they wish? What do they lose except for gaining the body they wish to live in? I can understand points about us needing to be very careful with anyone wishing to undergo this surgery but don't see an issue with it happening...whether born with a penis or only having one after surgery how is it damaging the body? The only risk I could see is someone later wanting to bare a child or deciding they aren't that gender, both things I'm sure anyone getting surgery will be absolutely certain about first.

Also agree with WI's earlier point that it would be better if society were different and people could feel happy without needing surgery but clearly at this moment in time that isn't where we are at

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Sex changes are not effective, say researchers

Research from the US and Holland suggests that up to a fifth of patients regret changing sex. A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

I believe that an adult should be able to have gender-reassignment surgery if they want to, but given the dubious efficacy and the finality of it all I don't believe that the medical establishment should be pushing it as a pseudo-cure, and I definitely don't think we should stop looking for a genuine cure just because treating it as a disorder could be 'damaging' somehow. The practise of parents consenting to pumping young kids full of hormones because they express trans feelings doesn't really sit right with me either, not while large sections of said kids "spontaneously lose those feelings" when they get older.

 

[Stevencc]

A couple of "large explosions" at Brussels Zaventem airport. It's being reported as a terrorist attack by some sources but no one seems to really know what's gone on.

One confirmed dead and several wounded.

 

[Nath]

Several reported dead now.

 

[silkyman]

Not much help if they were born in Europe.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Lots of photos on twitter of the injured lying on the ground as other passengers just walk past

I know the bystander effect is a powerful thing but why the fuck is no one helping, it isn't too much to ask to have a quick word if someone's lying on the ground fucking bleeding to death is it

 

[Freakyteeth]

Explosion in the subway now.

How many more times will this be allowed to happen?

 

[silkyman]

Reports of more explosions on the metro.

 

[JJH]

Explosions in the metro now, Brussels under attack.

 

[Tilbury]

Explosion in the subway now.

How many more times will this be allowed to happen?

Allowed? How the fuck do you stop this.

 

[JJH]

10 dead and 30 injured reportedly.

 

[silkyman]

Keep out/chuck out the brown people.

Got it.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Remember kids, borders are violence.

First thing you do in a wake of a terrorist atrocity is try and score petty points on an internet forum?

 

[Freakyteeth]

Keep out/chuck out the brown people.

Got it.

Don't be a pagnell, that's obviously not what I said.



Explosions at three different subway stations now. I can just imagine what that c*** theresa may has planned now in under the guise of "public protecting security measures"

 

[Freakyteeth]

First thing you do in a wake of a terrorist atrocity is try and score petty points on an internet forum?

How am I scoring points? I'm expressing exasperation that people are bending over in the face of these atrocities. Two of the Paris attackers were migrants via Greece who had free travel of mainland Europe through the Schengen agreement. At last count there have been five explosions so far in Brussels, that's potentially 5 suicide bombers. There is every possibility some of the arseholes behind this aren't home grown from Belgium. No border controls across millions of square miles is fucking insanity.

 

[silkyman]

Don't be a pagnell, that's obviously not what I said.



Explosions at three different subway stations now. I can just imagine what that c*** theresa may has planned now in under the guise of "public protecting security measures"

It might as well have been. Stop all immigrants and investigate everyone who lives in an immigrant dense region. That's almost Trump level rhetoric. Or do you mean stop everyone coming into the Europe on the off chance?

 

[silkyman]

How am I scoring points? I'm expressing exasperation that people are bending over in the face of these atrocities. Two of the Paris attackers were migrants via Greece who had free travel of mainland Europe through the Schengen agreement. At last count there have been five explosions so far in Brussels, that's potentially 5 suicide bombers. There is every possibility some of the arseholes behind this aren't home grown from Belgium. No border controls across millions of square miles is fucking insanity.

But some may well be born there. Just slamming fences up all over the place isn't going to stop that.

 

[SALTIRE]

When will all this hate end?

 

[spireite]

What have the Belgians ever done to anybody?
This is so sad. What do these people honestly expect to achieve with actions like this?

 

[spireite]

It's depressing how you can't say anything contrary to some of the OTT liberal try-hards on here without being labelled as a right wing bigot. It just stifles any kind of reasonable debate on the subject.

 

[mnb089mnb]

It's depressing how you can't say anything contrary to some of the right wing bigots on here without being labelled as a OTT liberal try-hard. It just stifles any kind of reasonable debate on the subject.

 

[Freakyteeth]

But some may well be born there. Just slamming fences up all over the place isn't going to stop that.

No. But admitting we have an internal problem of bellends and drawing up cross-border actual plans across the union to stamp it out completely would be a good start.

Abu Qatada was free to incite hatred and inspire terrorists for years and nothing was done about it. Those two Woolwich bastards were at violent demos organised by Anjem Choudary. Free to do and say what they wanted to while Plod stood meekly in the corner recording on his JVC. Jesus Christ am I living in fucking bizarro world.

 

[silkyman]

Why does it have to be 'young men of fighting age'? An 87 year old granny could pull a wheeled suitcase into an airport check in area. My 5 year old daughter could wheel her Ben and Holly case onto a train station.

The things you're proposing are impossible without it boiling down to 'stop the darkies'. Because there are many routes into the country. Legally and illegally. What if there is a fundamentalist currently living in France, with a legal French passport who has not been anywhere near a border for 10 years. How do you really stop him from getting into the UK without just having a blanket ban? So many of these ARE home grown that stopping immigration, or even linking it to refugees is meaningless.

The current crisis in the Med has been a useful tool for people to get their people into Europe of late. But what's to stop them coming in through other middle eastern states? You can't stop everyone flying in from every nation on earth. How hard would it be for them to travel elsewhere on forged documents then fly in from Nigeria, or Kenya, or South Africa?

 

[silkyman]

No. But admitting we have an internal problem of bellends and drawing up cross-border actual plans across the union to stamp it out completely would be a good start.

Abu Qatada was free to incite hatred and inspire terrorists for years and nothing was done about it. Those two Woolwich bastards were at violent demos organised by Anjem Choudary. Free to do and say what they wanted to while Plod stood meekly in the corner recording on his JVC. Jesus Christ am I living in fucking bizarro world.

The intelligence services are reportedly stopping possible attacks all the time. How can you predict and prevent someone picking up a knife from their kitchen and going out to attack someone? Should they arrest and imprison everyone who has been on an EDL march because occasionally racists go and murder muslims? There is no 'blanket' solution, because, basically, it's too easy to do.

As the quote from the IRA said... 'We have to get lucky every time. They only have to get lucky once.'

 

[spireite]

It's depressing how you can't say anything contrary to some of the right wing bigots on here without being labelled as a OTT liberal try-hard. It just stifles any kind of reasonable debate on the subject.

Erm, it's one way traffic on Freaky here... Sometimes trying so hard to be funny all the time for dem likes isn't appropriate

 

[mnb089mnb]

Erm, it's one way traffic on Freaky here... Sometimes trying so hard to be funny all the time for dem likes isn't appropriate

It isn't one way at all.

You're making the mistake of lumping people in to one of two groups. People have very differing opinions on things even if they're generally left or right leaning. I don't necessarily agree with what silkyman says or departed user (which is a weird sentence I guess)

I'll admit that I have very little idea of how to prevent terrorist attacks, even if others feel they have a better idea.

 

[Freakyteeth]

Why does it have to be 'young men of fighting age'? An 87 year old granny could pull a wheeled suitcase into an airport check in area. My 5 year old daughter could wheel her Ben and Holly case onto a train station.

You're pulling at straws now.

How many of these are old women?

Or these?

Or these?

Or these?

You're not deluded, you're being deliberately ignorant for your own agenda if you think there aren't mentally ill people like those in the photos currently trying to slip into Europe by getting on a boat from failed state Libya and claiming political asylum.

The things you're proposing are impossible without it boiling down to 'stop the darkies'. Because there are many routes into the country. Legally and illegally. What if there is a fundamentalist currently living in France, with a legal French passport who has not been anywhere near a border for 10 years. How do you really stop him from getting into the UK without just having a blanket ban? So many of these ARE home grown that stopping immigration, or even linking it to refugees is meaningless.

Then we return to my first paragraph in the post you first quoted. Intelligence. Prevention. Monitoring. Not bowing down to the blue sky ideal fantasy world that lives in some suits heads in Strasbourg and letting naughty boys like Qatada indoctrinate people for years and get away with it because stopping him shouting kill the kuffar through his megaphone would be breaching articles 3 and 6 of the mega happy EU friends convention.

The current crisis in the Med has been a useful tool for people to get their people into Europe of late. But what's to stop them coming in through other middle eastern states? You can't stop everyone flying in from every nation on earth. How hard would it be for them to travel elsewhere on forged documents then fly in from Nigeria, or Kenya, or South Africa?

The visa system.

How many forged papers slip past the UKBA? Not many.

 

[silkyman]

It isn't one way at all.

You're making the mistake of lumping people in to one of two groups. People have very differing opinions on things even if they're generally left or right leaning. I don't necessarily agree with what silkyman says or departed user (which is a weird sentence I guess)

I'll admit that I have very little idea of how to prevent terrorist attacks, even if others feel they have a better idea.

Ditto. I just think shouting 'stop all immigration, leave the EU, build a wall!' probably isn't actually the best way to do it.