Coutinho or Barkley.

[Stevencc]

You missed me less than you'll miss Coutinho, but you missed me.

 

[Pagnell]

Sorry, who are you again?

 

[Bilo]

Sorry, who are you again?

Pretty sure it's Johnnytodd Pags mate.

 

[Johnnyt]

Let's see how many games he plays. How much he earns at a club like Chelsea means jack shit. As I've said above, he'll be cover and come on as a sub occasionally.

If he wanted to increase his bank balance, he's done the right thing. If he wanted to take his footballing career to the next level, he'd have been best staying at Everton and knuckling down and proving himself, something he hasn't done yet.

I suspect he'll be sold on within 2-3 seasons having made no more than 30-40 appearances, if that. You only have to listen to Conte talk about him.

I said relatively cheap and he is - both on a transfer fee and wage basis.

When counting bonuses, appearances etc. (which he will get relatively few of) that's probably around the average wage in the Chelsea first team.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing? He's a really good player and none of us (even his new manager) can see it? It's possible I guess, just not very likely.

Someone like Mahrez is relatively similar, but far superior to Barkley. He would improve Chelsea, but they aren't getting him for 15 mil and 100k a week.

Are you saying Barkley isn't very good? i seem to remember before his injury only F Lampard had a better goals / assists record at his age.

 

[Pagnell]

Now I know you're Johnnytodd.

No, I'm not saying he's a bad player. He's simply not a great one. And if he wasn't a 'home grown talent' (ie English) Chelsea wouldn't have bought him. He reminds me a bit of Jack Wilshire. Lots of hype about him as a youngster, but very little has happened since to justify that hype. Partly because of injury in both cases, and partly because they simply haven't been able to live up to it. In Barkley's case I get the impression his attitude hasn't helped in regards to the latter.

As I've said, Barkley isn't good enough to make any position in the Chelsea team his own. And that will show in the coming seasons when we take a look at his appearance stats.

 

[St. Juste]

Are you saying Barkley isn't very good? i seem to remember before his injury only F Lampard had a better goals / assists record at his age.

It's all relative, he is a good player for Everton, but isn't good enough for Chelsea.

The stat about him having a certain amount of goals / assists by a certain age can be a bit misleading - plenty of pretty average players have done x by y age. Look at Rodwells number of appearances at a young age. Or youngest ever PL player James Vaughan.

The limitations of Barkley as a player are clear when you watch him play, he is an attacking midfielder lacking in tactical intelligence. There's a reason most players in that position are more David Silva or Juan Mata than Barkley or Renato Sanches.

 

[Renegade]

I think Barkley is a bargain at that price in the current market and his wages will be nothing to Chelsea, but as most people have correctly pointed out, he'll barely play and is largely there to make up the numbers. He's a very good Premier League player, but he's done nothing to suggest he'll be a success at one of the big teams. I imagine he'll be used as relief for Hazard and Fabregas late on in games and in the cups.

 

[don solis]

Barkley IS NOT in the same class as Wilshere in my opinion. He looks like he has promise but when it comes to big games he usually fails miserably! Wilshere has the proven ability that is less predictable and is usually doing something to keep the position nervous when on the ball. Barkley just lacks legitimate big game qualities. Coutinho by far is more dangerous and proven against better opposition ,but to be fair Barkley hasn't had the same supporting cats as the Brazilian.

 

[Pagnell]

You missed the point. I never said Wilshire is no better than Barkley (although I feel you over

Barkley IS NOT in the same class as Wilshere in my opinion. He looks like he has promise but when it comes to big games he usually fails miserably! Wilshere has the proven ability that is less predictable and is usually doing something to keep the position nervous when on the ball. Barkley just lacks legitimate big game qualities. Coutinho by far is more dangerous and proven against better opposition ,but to be fair Barkley hasn't had the same supporting cats as the Brazilian.

You missed the point. I never said Wilshire wasn't a superior player to Barkley (although I feel you overstate Wilshire's ability and certainly his impact) rather that they remind me of each other in terms of initial hype and unfulfilled potential.

Wilshire has shown himself to have the better attitude too, for example I could never imagine Barkley being prepared to go on loan to a recently promoted club.

 

[don solis]

I don't think Wilshire was hyped though ,he was then most creative midfielder England has produced for years .He gave the national side a dimension they aha missed for years. You see what he does in his goals and one touch play and you ca understand why he was talked about so much. And in England that isa rarity when they get it right . They hype up English players after stringing together two decent games against fodder Barkley is one, Baines another and Stones another! Reeks of desperation, cheap sensationalism with a spatter of nationalistic bluster. Wilshere is the real deal ,no other English player can do what he does when he's fit. His attitude (immaturity) however may be another issue he may have altered out on loan . I hope he stays fit and motivated for England's sak,e because he's game changer in our team.

 

[Pagnell]

Wilshire was hyped as a teenager. And hasn't lived up to it. Party due to injury as I've already touched upon (of which I believe he's picked up another tonight), but also due to simply not producing the level of quality people believed he would. Not even the most staunch Arsenal/Wilshire fanatic can claim he has done. A player who is as good as he was meant to be doesn't get sent out on loan to Bournemouth, even when trying to get game time after an injury.

My opinion on the matter might be skewed somewhat by confirmation bias though, I confess. I was always of the view he wasn't as good as many made out (and said so more than once on here and TFF) and as far as I'm concerned that has turned out to be true. Is he too old now to prove me wrong? At 26 no, he's not reached his peak yet. But I find it unlikely he'll ever be anything more than a decent player, or not on a consistent basis at least.

 

[Stevencc]

Wilshere and Barkley can shuffle off into irrelevance now we have Dele Alli.

 

[St. Juste]

Wilshere is a strange one, even by English standards he was incredibly hyped up. Last year he wasn't even a guaranteed starter for Bournemouth.

I imagine he has benefited from being quite different, you are correct in that England do not regularly produce players like him. Many managers who aren't Arsene Wenger, might have changed him into a wide player (like Joe Cole) or an attacking midfielder. He's being helped enormously in that respect.

However, maybe Guardiola was right when asked about him - that the Barcelona reserves were full of similar players. I don't think Wilshere is technically good enough to stand out there, and would be one of many left footed, diminutive playmakers.

He's not a great player, but different enough to be of value to England in a position they are lacking anyway - he is most certainly different from Livermore, Henderson and Dier, but not as good a player as Lallana.

Things that are pehaps stopping him reaching his full potential are undoubtedly injuries, but he clearly has an attitude problem too. To come back this time he said he 'changed his diet' implying it wasn't great before.

And you have seen some of the comments he makes?

"We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat.
We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that."

Yep, lead the revolution.....

Also, maybe it's just him and Scholes but do English midfielders like him try to overcompensate and end up being overly aggressive / dirty players? To make up for the fact that's not naturally their game but they feel it needs to be to be a midfielder? Just a thought. Since Le Tissier there's been no English* equivalent of Ozil, for example.

*Players from the Channel Islands are not necessarily English, and are equally eligible for all the home nations. I think it's the same for Isle of Mann too.

 

[Johnnyt]

Wilshere is a strange one, even by English standards he was incredibly hyped up. Last year he wasn't even a guaranteed starter for Bournemouth.

I imagine he has benefited from being quite different, you are correct in that England do not regularly produce players like him. Many managers who aren't Arsene Wenger, might have changed him into a wide player (like Joe Cole) or an attacking midfielder. He's being helped enormously in that respect.

However, maybe Guardiola was right when asked about him - that the Barcelona reserves were full of similar players. I don't think Wilshere is technically good enough to stand out there, and would be one of many left footed, diminutive playmakers.

He's not a great player, but different enough to be of value to England in a position they are lacking anyway - he is most certainly different from Livermore, Henderson and Dier, but not as good a player as Lallana.

Things that are pehaps stopping him reaching his full potential are undoubtedly injuries, but he clearly has an attitude problem too. To come back this time he said he 'changed his diet' implying it wasn't great before.

And you have seen some of the comments he makes?

"We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat.
We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that."

Yep, lead the revolution.....

Also, maybe it's just him and Scholes but do English midfielders like him try to overcompensate and end up being overly aggressive / dirty players? To make up for the fact that's not naturally their game but they feel it needs to be to be a midfielder? Just a thought. Since Le Tissier there's been no English* equivalent of Ozil, for example.

*Players from the Channel Islands are not necessarily English, and are equally eligible for all the home nations. I think it's the same for Isle of Mann too.

You rate Lallana hahahaaaaaaa he is piss poor........him coming back into the team can only hurt Liverpool, they are flying without him.

 

[Abertawe]

Imagine rating Lallana - especially when your job is supposed to be highlighting overrated english players.

 

[G-Dragon]

Imagine Abert in PL threads next season...oh wait!

 

[SALTIRE]

You rate Lallana hahahaaaaaaa he is piss poor........him coming back into the team can only hurt Liverpool, they are flying without him.

He's no Davy Klaassen thats for sure eh Toddles!

 

[Pagnell]

Far be it from me to defend Hugh but didn't he simply say that Lallana is better than Wilshire? Hardly unreasonable.

 

[Bilo]

Lallana was one of our outstanding players last season when we finished 4th so he's not exactly shit either.

 

[Renegade]

Lallana is great.

 

[SALTIRE]

Yes. Yes he is.

 

[Johnnyt]

Hes not good enough for Liverpool imo they need better players than him.

And Henderson needs updating too.

One or two players could make the difference for Liverpool.

I read that Firminio hinted at wanting to leave today which is worrying though.

 

[SALTIRE]

Hes not good enough for Liverpool imo they need better players than him.

And Henderson needs updating too.

One or two players could make the difference for Liverpool.

I read that Firminio hinted at wanting to leave today which is worrying though.

Yer some boy, I'll give you that.

They are looking to bump up Firmino's deal to keep him there for the rest of his career, but negotiations haven't started yet and he's got 2 years left on his deal.

Glad to see you are finally admitting that we aren't a crock of shit unlike over at the other place eh! If Keita comes in sooner I fully expect us to get top four. If not then it could be a close run thing without further additions, unless the quite brilliant Lallana and Ox hit top form along with Mane getting back to his best.

 

[Johnnyt]

Yer some boy, I'll give you that.

They are looking to bump up Firmino's deal to keep him there for the rest of his career, but negotiations haven't started yet and he's got 2 years left on his deal.

Glad to see you are finally admitting that we aren't a crock of shit unlike over at the other place eh! If Keita comes in sooner I fully expect us to get top four. If not then it could be a close run thing without further additions, unless the quite brilliant Lallana and Ox hit top form along with Mane getting back to his best.

Not sure why you keep referring to other places? or calling me johnny? but anyway.......i hear they are offering lifetime deals to a couple of players? if that doesn't divide a camp nothing will.

 

[Abertawe]

Imagine Abert in PL threads next season...oh wait!

You said the same season. The Swans will rise again.

To everyone else - Lallana is toddles - not unreasonable to suggest he's better than Wilshere - you high?

 

[Pagnell]

You would jizz your pants if Swansea somehow bagged Lallana. You're fooling nobody.

And No, it's not unreasonable.

 

[Abertawe]

You would jizz your pants if Swansea somehow bagged Lallana. You're fooling nobody.

And No, it's not unreasonable.

No I wouldn't - professional football is not 5 a side on astro - that's all he's good for. Lallana is almost 30 years of age and despite playing in the championship most his life has only scored 65 league goals in his entire career. For an exclusive attacking mid that is very average. I think Mo has scored more in half a season than he has in his entire Liverpool career. If you want to become a good team blinkered fans like you need to stop being so tribal - understand that mediocrity like Lallana will keep you outside of top four.

Making it more topic worthy - it's not unreasonable to suggest Barkley is better than Lallana.

 

[Pagnell]

Barkley? Christ, now I know you're taking the piss.

And keep us outside the top 4? We finished top 4 last season (and Lallana contributed in large parts to that, which makes a nonsense of your 'point') and we're currently in the top 4 as things stand. Come on, you can do better than this Abertawe.

 

[Roque Santa Cruz]

Coutinho is way more talented.

 

[G-Dragon]

So is Messi, wuts ur point?