European Union Referendum

[TractorBoys]

I genuinelly couldn't give a fuck if we're in or we're out, but as Ebeenezer alludes too, if you're one of the bellends citing chaos and hard times as a result of either, have a word with yourself. Deluded fools, the world will keep turning and the UK economy will be fine.

 

[Abertawe]

I genuinelly couldn't give a fuck if we're in or we're out, but as Ebeenezer alludes too, if you're one of the bellends citing chaos and hard times as a result of either, have a word with yourself. Deluded fools, the world will keep turning and the UK economy will be fine.

Thick as fuck.

 

[Abertawe]

May is going to see this out for a couple of years ain't she? The tories are too shithouse to remove her. The deal won't go through parliament so she'll announce we're remaining. A motion of no confidence will be defeated by Lib Dems and Blairite Labour mps. She's gonna fucking survive this. She won't make it to another election but she'll become a hero figure for eu business and remainer so she'll get a big job afterwards.

What a waste of time and we were the catalyst for Trump, what have we done!

 

[Habbinalan]

May is going to see this out for a couple of years ain't she? The tories are too shithouse to remove her. The deal won't go through parliament so she'll announce we're remaining. A motion of no confidence will be defeated by Lib Dems and Blairite Labour mps. She's gonna fucking survive this. She won't make it to another election but she'll become a hero figure for eu business and remainer so she'll get a big job afterwards.

What a waste of time and we were the catalyst for Trump, what have we done!

I'm not sure she's got a couple of years in her but otherwise that looks like as near to Plan A as I've seen so far this week.

 

[Fompous Part]

Given that Article 50 has been invoked and we have an official leave date (29 March 2019), the default position if May's godawful deal is rejected would be, err, no deal.

I'm not stating my desired outcome here; just stating it as procedural fact. The Article 50 period can be extended if the other EU27 unanimously agree, but it's not clear if it can be nixed completely. Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty says nothing about a country wishing to scrap its withdrawal effort at the arse end of the mandated 2-year 'negotiation' period.

FWIW, I think it probably can be nixed. I suspect any effort by a British government to shitcan Brexit would be pushing at an open door. Nonetheless, as it stands from a legal/procedural point of view, "just stay" is not the default or fall-back position. It hasn't been since March 2017.

 

[Fompous Part]

We were the catalyst for Trump, what have we done!

I don't think there is any causal relationship between the two. There are some broad thematic similarities, but by and large the Yanks don't give two shits about what's happening in our domestic politics.

I, as a Leave voter and campaigner, am willing to take the blame for many things, but a childish, egotistical buffoon winning the US Presidency (via their offensively undemocratic Electoral College system) is not one of them.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

May is going to see this out for a couple of years ain't she? The tories are too shithouse to remove her. The deal won't go through parliament so she'll announce we're remaining. [...]

Wouldn't that have to go through parliament as well?

 

[PuB]

Yes. No prime minister, whoever that might be, has the power to unilaterally decide what's happening. Despite it being undemocratic, it wouldn't be legal either.

 

[Fompous Part]

It would be the most absurd perversion of democracy (the PM might as well tear up the social contract and wipe his/her arse with it), but I’m not sure it would be illegal. It might be, but I'm not sure.

The referendum was advisory, so the government is not legally bound to implement the result. The withdrawal deal requires parliamentary approval (not just in the HoC but the EP), but if we’re permitted to just ditch the Article 50 process and remain members under the existing terms, there would be no deal to approve.

The big point of uncertainty is whether there is provision to ditch the Article 50 process after it’s been initiated. That contingency is not covered in the relevant treaty and the scenario is without precedent.

 

[Abertawe]

It would be the most absurd perversion of democracy (the PM might as well tear up the social contract and wipe his/her arse with it), but I’m not sure it would be illegal. It might be, but I'm not sure.

The referendum was advisory, so the government is not legally bound to implement the result. The withdrawal deal requires parliamentary approval (not just in the HoC but the EP), but if we’re permitted to just ditch the Article 50 process and remain members under the existing terms, there would be no deal to approve.

The big point of uncertainty is whether there is provision to ditch the Article 50 process after it’s been initiated. That contingency is not covered in the relevant treaty and the scenario is without precedent.

Even ERG figures seem acceptant they'd lose this wrangling. This deal is so bad that if there was the smallest intention to no deal we'd have done so this week.

 

[Fompous Part]

^ I know neither what that means nor how it relates to the post you’ve quoted.

 

[Habbinalan]

I'm guessing there'll be a lot of hot air about fish and blackmail over the next few weeks but this is as simple a summary of where things have got to that I've seen recently.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-deal-alternatives/

Essentially, it suggests that Labour are in the driving seat but makes no comment on their co-ordination, navigation or driving skills.

 

[Laker]

Spain make me chuckle. They’ve never truly respected the EU freedoms in movement of goods, people etc with regards to Gibraltar, pretty poor partner to the EU in truth.

 

[silkyman]

All going brilliantly.

 

[silkyman]

So. The PM has been interviewed and Q and A'd several times this week.

Summary.

Brexit isn't going to make anyone better off, but at least we can keep out the forrins.

Well done everyone. It wasn't all about xenophobia at all. Arart from that it was. It absolutely was.

 

[Laker]

So. The PM has been interviewed and Q and A'd several times this week.

Summary.

Brexit isn't going to make anyone better off, but at least we can keep out the forrins.

Well done everyone. It wasn't all about xenophobia at all. Arart from that it was. It absolutely was.

Did you know you can be anti freedom of movement without hating all immigrants?

But yes this isn’t the Brexit leavers wanted. We wanted to not be bound by EU laws, a form of hard Brexit if you like. The only issue would have been Ireland but since Switzerland and Norway seem to have a casual arrangement with their borders I think we’d have been ok (their borders with the EU are way less restrictive than Spain with Gibraltar for example).

That said, if Cameron had got these concessions when he came back from the EU with his “wins” before the referendum then remain would probably have won or he’d have headed off a referendum altogether. So depends what you want really.

 

[Fompous Part]

If Leavers really were, by and large, a bunch of dribbling racists who only cared about keeping out the fuzzy-wuzzies, they’d be happy with the proposed deal. The UK no longer being subject to intra-EU FOM rules is one of the few Leave objectives that the proposed deal would actually achieve. Yet recent polling data (see the latest Ashcroft for example) suggests that Leave voters dislike the draft deal even more than Remain voters. Funny that...

Unfortunately facts and logic have never been Silky’s bag, and trying to debate him is almost invariably a waste of time. I’ve tried literally dozens of times over the course of this thread, and the truth is it doesn’t matter how many times you point out the untruths or logical fallacies in his thinking. It doesn’t matter how cogently you articulate a pro-Leave position contrary to his preconceived view of how Leave voters think. He just comes back and posts the same shite over and over and over again. He consistently posts the most narrow-minded, tin-eared, prejudicial crap in this thread, routinely casting negative aspirations about a diverse voting group comprising 17m people. A nasty little bigot, really.

 

[silkyman]

I’m not saying that everyone who voted Leave was a dribbling racist. But the only people who seem to be winning from this are the dribbling racists like Theresa May.

She claims ‘will of the people’ but apparently no one voted Leave just because they were terrified of being adjacent to an Estonian, and that’s her headline ‘benefit’ every time she’s asked about it.

So as ‘everyone knew exactly what they voted for’ as I’m told repeatedly, didnyou vote to be poorer, but with fewer Polish people?

Cos that’s the brexit you’re getting.

So either this really is ‘the will of the people’ in which case, by definition, Leave voters are all xenophobic morons who would rather be unemployed than suffer the indignity of having to hear a Spaniard in Tesco, or it’s not ‘the will of the people’ at all, and all the screams of anguish about the death of democracy at the nearest mention of a second referendum, can stop.

So. Which is it?

 

[Stevencc]

If Leavers really were, by and large, a bunch of dribbling racist halfwits who only cared about keeping out the fuzzy-wuzzies, they’d be happy with the proposed deal. The UK no longer being subject to intra-EU FOM rules is one of the few Leave objectives that the proposed deal would actually achieve. Yet recent polling data (see the latest Ashcroft for example) suggests that Leave voters dislike the draft deal even more than Remain voters. Funny that...

Unfortunately facts and logic have never been Silky’s bag, and trying to debate him is almost invariably a waste of time. I’ve tried literally dozens of times over the course of this thread, and the truth is it doesn’t matter how many times you point out the untruths or logical fallacies in his thinking. It doesn’t matter how cogently you articulate a pro-Leave position contrary to his preconceived view of how Leave voters think. He just comes back and posts the same shite over and over and over again. He consistently posts the most narrow-minded, tin-eared, prejudicial crap in this thread, routinely casting negative aspirations about a diverse voting group comprising 17m people. A nasty little bigot, really.

Brexit to Silky is no different to the Manchester derby - an excuse for him to have a go at the other side and feel good about himself (regardless of the reality of the actual matter at hand).

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I’m not saying that everyone who voted Leave was a dribbling racist. But the only people who seem to be winning from this are the dribbling racists like Theresa May.

She claims ‘will of the people’ but apparently no one voted Leave just because they were terrified of being adjacent to an Estonian, and that’s her headline ‘benefit’ every time she’s asked about it.

So as ‘everyone knew exactly what they voted for’ as I’m told repeatedly, didnyou vote to be poorer, but with fewer Polish people?

Cos that’s the brexit you’re getting.

So either this really is ‘the will of the people’ in which case, by definition, Leave voters are all xenophobic morons who would rather be unemployed than suffer the indignity of having to hear a Spaniard in Tesco, or it’s not ‘the will of the people’ at all, and all the screams of anguish about the death of democracy at the nearest mention of a second referendum, can stop.

So. Which is it?

Ending freedom of movement is the will of the people, much of the other shit she's promised is not. It's really not that complicated. It should also be pointed out that for sensible people encountering fewer migrants is not the only benefit of immigration control.

 

[Benji]

Man Utd ended freedom of movement in their attacking play.

 

[Laker]

I’m not saying that everyone who voted Leave was a dribbling racist. But the only people who seem to be winning from this are the dribbling racists like Theresa May.

She claims ‘will of the people’ but apparently no one voted Leave just because they were terrified of being adjacent to an Estonian, and that’s her headline ‘benefit’ every time she’s asked about it.

So as ‘everyone knew exactly what they voted for’ as I’m told repeatedly, didnyou vote to be poorer, but with fewer Polish people?

Cos that’s the brexit you’re getting.

So either this really is ‘the will of the people’ in which case, by definition, Leave voters are all xenophobic morons who would rather be unemployed than suffer the indignity of having to hear a Spaniard in Tesco, or it’s not ‘the will of the people’ at all, and all the screams of anguish about the death of democracy at the nearest mention of a second referendum, can stop.

So. Which is it?

Or option 3 that people wanted less immigration for reasons such as pressure on services and society rather than because they have any racist sentiment? But don’t let that get in the way of your polarised way of viewing everything.

Edit: *society is a bit of a shite/lazy word but where I was going was housing, work et al.

 

[Red]

Ending freedom of movement is the will of the people, much of the other shit she's promised is not. It's really not that complicated. It should also be pointed out that for sensible people encountering fewer migrants is not the only benefit of immigration control.

I know and work with lots of migrants, most of them are really nice people if one takes the time to get to know them.

 

[Red]

Or option 3 that people wanted less immigration for reasons such as pressure on services and society rather than because they have any racist sentiment? But don’t let that get in the way of your polarised way of viewing everything.

Yeah, there are people like that, but they have a simplistic view of things when they blame immigration for lack of social housing and pressures on the NHS. Successive governments have under funded the NHS and failed to implement any meaningful social housing building programmes. This govt is also still quite happy to let the likes of Amazon avoid taxes which would generate billions in revenue. Be honest mate, a lot of people voted to leave because they just don't like foreigners who are an easy target. For some people taking the time and effort to look into what really causes these problems is just too intellectually taxing when they have a ready made scapegoat. I'n wondering though, when EU migration stops and we still have a housing crisis and an ailing NHS who will they blame then?

 

[Laker]

Yeah, there are people like that, but they have a simplistic view of things when they blame immigration for lack of social housing and pressures on the NHS. Successive governments have under funded the NHS and failed to implement any meaningful social housing building programmes. This govt is also still quite happy to let the likes of Amazon avoid taxes which would generate billions in revenue. Be honest mate, a lot of people voted to leave because they just don't like foreigners who are an easy target. For some people taking the time and effort to look into what really causes these problems is just too intellectually taxing when they have a ready made scapegoat. I'n wondering though, when EU migration stops and we still have a housing crisis and an ailing NHS who will they blame then?

Obviously immigration wasn’t the only reason for wishing to leave the EU however I was merely pointing out to Silky that people could want to leave the EU in their quest for reduced immigration without it being so that “they don’t have to hear someone speaking Spanish in Tesco” or, as you put it “because they just don’t like foreigners”.

It’s this sort of lazy recognition of any view which isn’t “welcome foreigners with open arms or you’re a racist” which led to people getting pretty fucked off with mainstream politics in the first place.

 

[Red]

What's lazy is blaming immigration for all our social ills.

 

[Laker]

What's lazy is blaming immigration for all our social ills.

Agree completely.

 

[Benji]

Wait is it the immigrants' fault we don't have enough houses and jobs?

 

[Modernist]

The country is really in a bad way, I always thought we were open and friendly but this referendum and the press really have whipped up a storm of hatred, the language used is truly disgusting. Its no surprise that racist attacks are on the rise, and now with the footage of that Syrian refugee I wonder if this is the country I thought it was.

So much so for the first time I'm thinking of leaving, it won't be for a while for family reasons, but i'd be gone if I hadn't any ties, I feel disconnected from the british public at the moment, I hope it gets better but I wonder if it will. No wonder so many people are leaving for the republic.

 

[Super_horns]

I think even the opposition leader is getting bored of all the Brexit talk...

He'd rather watch celebs eating insects in a jungle down under.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46386737

Or he might think the BBC will be Pro Tory - the Tories of course think the Beeb are pro Labour..