European Union Referendum

[JaseTheVillain]

I was never taught how to think. Not in secondary school, anyway. Were you?

When I was at school there was no instruction in things like informal logic, critical thinking or rhetoric. Nothing that equipped me with any of the conceptual tools required to pick apart a bad argument; or, conversely, construct a good one. Not even a primer on, say, the most basic logical fallacies. I had to teach myself most of that in my early 20s.

I often wonder whether the same is true for most UK pupils nowadays. I honestly don’t know, so would be interested to hear from any teachers or recent school leavers. Quite possibly the national curriculum covers it much better now, but the general quality of public discourse – especially among young adults – suggests not.

Was still the same when I left 7 years ago...

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I think it was the dinner party-example you used in a previous post that made me assume it was a reoccuring problem.

Oh, that charming skirmish was between my mother-in-law and some ghastly ogress my wife works with. I just had the misfortune of being stuck between them, sipping claret and staring into the middle distance. My usual dinner party shtick, TBH.

Rest of your post was very interesting. Will reply to a few points tomorrow or later in the week.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

2. People (from various political camps, by the way) see those with opposing views not just as opponents but as enemies. The level of hatred people harbour for the political adversaries genuinely worries me. The willingness to smear others for the 'greater good' is particularly troubling.

On immigration, for example, the people who do not support opening up borders into Europe are, for all their contortions, basically in favour of watching thousands of people drown. That, for me, is unforgivable. The things I view as essential and universal, you stand against. You are my enemies.

Calling you names on the internet won't change that obviously, and hatred ultimately isn't that productive, but articulating that hate can occasionally be somewhat cathartic. I think I'm with Brecht on this one.

You, who shall resurface following the flood
In which we have perished,
Contemplate –
When you speak of our weaknesses,
Also the dark time
That you have escaped.

For we went forth, changing our country more frequently than our shoes
Through the class warfare, despairing
That there was only injustice and no outrage.

And yet we knew:
Even the hatred of squalor
Distorts one’s features.
Even anger against injustice
Makes the voice grow hoarse. We
Who wished to lay the foundation for gentleness
Could not ourselves be gentle.

But you, when at last the time comes
That man can aid his fellow man,
Should think upon us
With leniency.

 

[Jockney]

I was never taught how to think. Not in secondary school, anyway. Were you?

When I was at school there was no instruction in things like informal logic, critical thinking or rhetoric. Nothing that equipped me with any of the conceptual tools required to pick apart a bad argument; or, conversely, construct a good one. Not even a primer on, say, the most basic logical fallacies. I had to teach myself most of that in my early 20s.

I often wonder whether the same is true for most UK pupils nowadays. I honestly don’t know, so would be interested to hear from any teachers or recent school leavers. Quite possibly the national curriculum covers it much better now, but the general quality of public discourse – especially among young adults – suggests not.

Assuming my suspicions are correct, I think something like a compulsory GCSE in Critical Thinking wouldn’t do any harm. Political discussion would still get heated, but there would be fewer bad arguments.

Yes, comprehensive education is increasingly being pushed towards a 'value-free' competency-based model, which is particularly bizarre amidst more popular political discourse that calls for better cultural integration and a return to so-called 'British Values', but then the traditional idea of the labour force and labour power doesn't exist anymore so schools have been pushed increasingly to 'get with the programme', so to speak. 'Critical thinking', as some sort of subject proper (it isn't, really: you can't have objective criticality), has gone the same way as Art History, Classics and all those other humanities-based subjects which are supposedly useless in this day and age.

Of course if you were properly critical, you'd probably become a Marxist and lose your fucking mind, but AFAIK Voltaire, Rousseau, Locke, et al, still figure fairly prominently in Sixth Form humanities departments across the country. If you're a bright, spunky entrepreneurial subject so-inclined, the classical liberal intellectual tradition is still there for you to help you up the career ladder.

 

[Aber gas]

This is where we are now.
If you think it's ok to watch children drown, if you think that it's ok to send gunboats out to repel the poorest and most disenfranchised from sanctuary then yes you are the enemy.
There has been mention of British values and lament of these being lost. What about our values of inclusiveness and tolerance?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Well yes, intellectual diversity - the most important kind of diversity we have - is indeed under constant threat from the intolerant and the absolutist, from those that would characterize their fellow countrymen as "the enemy" for holding opinions that are unconscionable in their eyes.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Sorry, I'm afraid I've rather butchered your beautiful prose as it told me there were too many characters. Hopefully you'll vaguely understand what I'm responding to!

Slightly better mood this evening.

It depends how you choose to define the political establishment. I think it has little to with wealth and privilege, and even less to do with being a recognisable public figure. More important is a person’s political ideas and objectives, and how closely those align with the sort of liberal orthodoxy that dominates thinking in our political institutions.
On this view, Brexit is a thoroughly anti-establishment idea. On this view, it’s patent flapdoodle to describe Nigel Farage as an establishment politician, even if his parents did send him to Dulwich 45+ years ago. Gove and Boris fit the description better, but both fit it awkwardly because Gove is a free thinker with a proven willingness to put political conviction above professional expediency (note: one can recognise this and still hate his guts) and Boris lends himself awkwardly to most political discussion because he’s best understood as some kind of absurd charlatan buffoon, more cartoon character than real person.
As for the press, one might reflect on the fact that the evil antipodean who owns The Sun and The Sunday Times (both Leave) also owns The Times (Remain), or the fact that the tax-dodging gobshite who owns The Daily Mail (Leave) also owns The Mail on Sunday (Remain). This is quite confusing unless you’re open to the idea that editors have more editorial independence than most people imagine. Generally, I think the media was roughly split down the middle, roughly reflecting a split in the country generally.
We can continue these lines of argument if you wish, but frankly I think they’re irrelevant to the point I was making. My original point was twofold: (1) conservatives are typically warier than progressives when it comes to disrupting the existing socio-political and economic order; and (2) while this can be seen clearly in most political debates, the EU referendum wasn’t one of them.

Yes, I rather believe it does. I'm not even sure I agree with your starting point for what might constitute being anti-establishment (though perhaps I might do were we to explore this idea further, who knows).

I disagree so far as the press is concerned and would cite studies that support the contention that coverage was very much skewed in favour of the Brexit camp (here and here - same study admittedly but the latter also taking in the end stages of the campaign). I would also note that the vociferous support for Leave in the anti-EU press seemed in stark contrast to the rather muted, lukewarm endorsement that Remain received from the pro-EU press.

I appreciate this wasn't exactly a central pillar of your argument so that's fine - was just struck slightly by the comment about siding with the political and business establishment given your (very sensible I think) comments elsewhere about not wishing to be tarnished by association. I recognise that it wasn't intended as a dig though.

It does carry a degree of risk and, as I’ve conceded before, there’s nowt wrong with drawing attention to that. It’s perfectly rational to worry about economic instability.
It’s interesting, though, when self-identifying left-liberals use that as their trump card, especially in a debate about our continued involvement in a project that raises myriad concerns about identity, democracy and unaccountable power.
It’s the lack of context that grates – the way the “economic risk” card is played over and over in such a single-minded and unthinking way, as though the unquestionable first duty of government is maintaining the existing economic order, as though anything that carries a degree of economic risk is self-evidently a terrible idea.
This is not how lefty progressive types usually think or argue. The narrow-minded short-termism. The pessimism. The obsession with stability. The crudulity of believing something is shit 'cos the CBI and Richard Branson say so. This is all a lot more characteristic of conservatves.

The first concern is reasonable but smuggles in an assumption that regional redevelopment requires the EU to serve as some kind of overpriced middleman. I don’t think it does.
The second concern has a general sort of validity insofar that (1) any substantial change to the existing economic order will have transient adverse economic effects, and (2) the worst off people in society will usually suffer the most. If one starts from the view that such things are beyond the pale, one severely limits oneself when it comes to political and economic reform.
Consider it this way: If Corbyn and McDonnell won power and set about dismantling the neoliberal consensus, there would be a period of economic decline. The inevitable chorus of doom mongering would damage confidence (as it has post-Brexit) and change and uncertainty are anathema to investors generally. But I don’t imagine the typical Corbyn supporter would be dissuaded. I think they’d argue that the long-term benefits of a creating a more just economic order was worth whatever problems were experienced during the transition period.

Yes, I appreciate this. However, I think the narrow focus on the economy can largely be attributed to the fact that it seems like the only game in town right now. That is to say that there are many unknowns at this very moment. We don't know what form Brexit will take or what the outcome of negotiations will be so just about the only thing we can say with any degree of confidence is that the referendum has ushered in a period of uncertainty, that this uncertainty will be most keenly felt by the markets and may soon be felt by the rest of us should they start behaving in a volatile manner. Quite happy to accept the general point re economic risk though.

If you gave persuasive reasons for thinking the post-Brexit economy would go “totally tits up” (as opposed to merely suffering a temporary period of instability and decline) and explained why there is no discernible benefit to leaving the EU, I could respect that. I’d disagree of course, but it would be a respectful sort of disagreement.

Oh, I wasn't intending to (I wouldn't be so bold as to make any definitive predictions on the future state of the economy). That comment was merely intended as a bit of a nod to something that you already acknowledged - that it's not incumbent upon liberal/lefty/progressive types to think Brexit will be a welcome change. In fact, I'd probably argue that it was natural for voters of a more left-wing disposition should feel slightly nervous about this particular change in circumstance. While the Leave campaign was more energised than Remain I'm not sure it was any less negative and some of this negativity (particularly surrounding migrants) was quite difficult to stomach. That's not to say that one can't make a progressive argument for leaving the EU but, in light of the way the campaign played out, I think it would actually be slightly strange if those of us of a more lefty persuasion didn't adopt a slightly cautious approach to the matter.

I’ll happily concede that. Mythologising the past is part of the conservative temperament. But the usual conservative response to a change that has already occurred (or is well underway) is to bellyache about the country going to hell in a handbasket while grudgingly accepting the change. And IMO that’s largely because they realise that undoing the change will cause a load of disruption, uncertainty and conflict – all things the conservative temperament is intuitively averse to. Given this, the boldness of Brexit is unusual and interesting.

Perhaps this can be explained partly because it wasn't perceived by Leave voters as being a particularly bold change. There's some evidence to suggest that most Leave voters didn't think Brexit would bring economic damage. Not sure why this would be but it might, I suppose, be partially influenced by one's personal circumstances and leads me to wonder whether there may be a bit of a generation gap here. Do older, more conservative voters expect to remain cossetted and insulated from economic turmoil and younger, liberal voters expect to continue to bear the brunt? Not sure, but it would probably be an interesting area to explore. In truth I suspect I don't disagree with you very much at all (your general observations are pretty sound) but I do find some of the intricacies of the ole Brexit shebang interesting. When you have free market right wingers and migrant hugging lefties on one side of the fence looking across at Bill Cash and Dennis Skinner holding hands on the other, it's rather difficult to know quite what to conclude...

 

[.V.]

I feel the country has lost it's national pride. A country that has survived 2 world wars, a country that once had an empire that ruled 1/3 of the world... for a small island off the North Sea we have accomplished so much.

Now we are a country with a generation of 'young adults' who would rather lay in bed all day playing a playstation rather than going out to work because living of the taxpayer is much easier. A country that has become overzealous about political correctness. For example going back to my previous statement about terms such as 'racist' being thrown around for daring to question the age of grown man who claims to be a child.

For a country that has sacrificed so much for freedom of speech, nowadays you either go along with public opinion, otherwise you'll be branded for it. It's no wonder to me why so many people stay quiet on the matter. Still I'm glad the silent majority stood up when it counted in the referendum vote.

We have achieved a lot. Has anything this country (Great Britain/UK) done in the last 70 Years fill you with pride?

Are we? Youth unemployment stats for people aged 16-24 show differently.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

I personally think that empathy for Syrian refuges should extent to all of them, not just children and women, but that's just me. I thought Private Eye summed it up nicely.

Can you provide me with some examples please?

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

I feel the country has lost it's national pride. A country that has survived 2 world wars, a country that once had an empire that ruled 1/3 of the world... for a small island off the North Sea we have accomplished so much.

Now we are a country with a generation of 'young adults' who would rather lay in bed all day playing a playstation rather than going out to work because living of the taxpayer is much easier. A country that has become overzealous about political correctness. For example going back to my previous statement about terms such as 'racist' being thrown around for daring to question the age of grown man who claims to be a child.

For a country that has sacrificed so much for freedom of speech, nowadays you either go along with public opinion, otherwise you'll be branded for it. It's no wonder to me why so many people stay quiet on the matter. Still I'm glad the silent majority stood up when it counted in the referendum vote.

 

[Stagat]

I feel the country has lost it's national pride. A country that has survived 2 world wars, a country that once had an empire that ruled 1/3 of the world... for a small island off the North Sea we have accomplished so much.

What did our accomplishment do for the national pride of that 1/3 of the world?

 

[Craig]

What did our accomplishment do for the national pride of that 1/3 of the world?

We gave them cricket...

 

[Techno Natch]

What did our accomplishment do for the national pride of that 1/3 of the world?

We went in and fucked shit up and got rich off the back of it while enslaving whole countries. I don't feel ashamed of it but It's certainly nothing to be proud of either. Find being proud of our empire a bit strange personally.

 

[Carver]

A big middle finger to the globalists and elites!

 

[johnnytodd]

We gave them cricket...

and they gave us aids............and its all our fault apparantley.

 

[johnnytodd]

civilised the world, what a man........

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Ironically, it was the Empire that started the trend of globalisation and that we see in fruition today, connecting hugely disparate parts of the world through building the modern infrastructure technology and industry of the time.

Ironic given the views many hold that either Britain is great / globalisation is bad, or Britain is bad / globalisation is great.

 

[johnnytodd]

Ironically, it was the Empire that started the trend of globalisation and that we see in fruition today, connecting hugely disparate parts of the world through building the modern infrastructure technology and industry of the time.

Ironic given the views many hold that either Britain is great / globalisation is bad, or Britain is bad / globalisation is great.

Your not just assuming that every thinks that are you?.....like assuming everyone who voted leave is a bigot.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

We have achieved a lot. Has anything this country (Great Britain/UK) done in the last 70 Years fill you with pride?

Are we? Youth unemployment stats for people aged 16-24 show differently.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

I personally think that empathy for Syrian refuges should extent to all of them, not just children and women, but that's just me. I thought Private Eye summed it up nicely.

Can you provide me with some examples please?

Quite. Seems utterly bizarre to me that we're even discussing whether this refugees furore might be considered racist (as if it fucking matters). Are we really so devoid of compassion that we're going to cynically pore over pictures of individuals in a doomed attempt to ascertain whether they might be nudging twenty? That's an awful, dehumanising way to respond to a crisis.

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

We gave them cricket...

that post was without a doubt alty's funniest contribution to this community

 

[markwwfc1992]

On immigration, for example, the people with oppositional views to mine, for all their contortions, basically in favour of watching thousands of people drown. That, for me, is unforgivable.

Any person who disagrees with your views on immigration is basically a person who is in favour of watching thousands of people drown? Are you for fucking real?!

I've seen some liberal crap on here, but that is probably the most moronic / insulting statement of the lot. Even tops Gary Linekar labeling people racist for questioning a migrants age who claimed to be a child but looked more on the north end of 30.

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

I feel the country has lost it's national pride. A country that has survived 2 world wars, a country that once had an empire that ruled 1/3 of the world... for a small island off the North Sea we have accomplished so much.

i've seen some racist crap on here, but that is probably the most moronic / insulting statement of the lot. Even tops Gary Linekar labeling people racist for questioning a migrants age who claimed to be a child but looked more on the north end of 30.

u say us ruling a third of the world is a good thing, us as the plucky underdogs. ask yourself how we came to rule a third of the world. was it a) empty land, were we just colonising strangely empty grasslands? or perhaps b) the lands were in fact full of a plethora of rich and vibrant civilizations, which they peacefully acquiesced to us? a minority of 'not racists' love to talk up the idea of us as this tiny island punching above our weight. we certainly do in the 'massive evil committed worldwide' stakes. belgium probably has us beat admittedly. fucking hate that place

obviously u are not a massive chundering racist but i am interested in why u are excusing the most racist experiment of our little island's magnificent history

 

[Abertawe]

I pick option a

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

man history would have been so much better if that was true we'd never have to listen to a welsh accent again

 

[markwwfc1992]

i've seen some racist crap on here, but that is probably the most moronic / insulting statement of the lot. Even tops Gary Linekar labeling people racist for questioning a migrants age who claimed to be a child but looked more on the north end of 30.

u say us ruling a third of the world is a good thing, us as the plucky underdogs. ask yourself how we came to rule a third of the world. was it a) empty land, were we just colonising strangely empty grasslands? or perhaps b) the lands were in fact full of a plethora of rich and vibrant civilizations, which they peacefully acquiesced to us? a minority of 'not racists' love to talk up the idea of us as this tiny island punching above our weight. we certainly do in the 'massive evil committed worldwide' stakes. belgium probably has us beat admittedly. fucking hate that place

obviously u are not a massive chundering racist but i am interested in why u are excusing the most racist experiment of our little island's magnificent history

It's easy to condemn the behaviour of what we as a country did a few hundred years ago if you compare it to todays laws and standards.

A few hundred years ago people didn't care much for human rights, more about what slaves we could take, what land we could seize and how many people they could murder. King George didn't seem to care much about the poor victims of the British Empire.

In today's world it is easy to condem such vile behaviour and rightly so. A lot has changed since the days of the Empire. Raping and killing innocents, invading lands and controlling a slave trade isn't such a cool thing to do in 2016. Thankfully we live in a modernised, accepting society now, but we cannot change our history.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Any person who disagrees with your views on immigration is basically a person who is in favour of watching thousands of people drown? Are you for fucking real?!

I've seen some liberal crap on here, but that is probably the most moronic / insulting statement of the lot. Even tops Gary Linekar labeling people racist for questioning a migrants age who claimed to be a child but looked more on the north end of 30.

Our system of borders is incredibly violent. People get into rickety boats in the Mediterranean not because they want to but because Europe has systematically closed off all safe routes in. That people drown in the Mediterranean in the numbers that they do is an unavoidable consequence of Europe's border policy and as such anyone who supports that policy is either deluding themselves or views the thousands of deaths as a small price to pay.

 

[markwwfc1992]

Our system of borders is incredibly violent. People get into rickety boats in the Mediterranean not because they want to but because Europe has systematically closed off all safe routes in. That people drown in the Mediterranean in the numbers that they do is an unavoidable consequence of Europe's border policy and as such anyone who supports that policy is either deluding themselves or views the thousands of deaths as a small price to pay.

The migrants in question are in boats in the Mediterranean, ie, not our borders. If were talking about migrants getting in rickety little boats to cross the English Channel that is different, and something we have more control over as it's our border.

To come out with statements like 'people who don't share my views on our country's immigration policy are happy to watch thousands of people drown is frankly insulting to millions of people in this country who don't share your views regarding immigration/border control.

Of course there needs to be change regarding border control throughout Europe. Migrants shouldn't have to put themselves and their families lives in danger to get to a safe country inside of Europe. I also don't think a complete open border policy is the answer either, it needs to be sustainable.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

It's easy to condemn the behaviour of what we as a country did a few hundred years ago if you compare it to todays laws and standards.

A few hundred years ago people didn't care much for human rights, more about what slaves we could take, what land we could seize and how many people they could murder.

People did care about human rights during the height of Empire. Much of the theoretical groundwork that we base modern human rights law upon was done during that period.

It's just that people those same liberal philosophers were very selective about who qualified as sufficiently human* to warrant protection under human rights.

Plenty of people were also happy to turn a blind eye to abuses in the colonies so long as that sweet sweet colonial plunder kept rolling in.

* this isn't quite how they would have explained it. Something about "mental capacities of Africans requiring stern discipline" or some shit. But the whole "access to human rights being conditional for marginalised people" thing is built into how "universal" human rights were defined.

 

[Carver]

On immigration, for example, the people with oppositional views to mine, for all their contortions, basically in favour of watching thousands of people drown. That, for me, is unforgivable.

Just have a look at what is happening in countries like France, Sweden and Germany.

I do not want to watch people die and suffer, but a lot of these immigrants believe in an ideology that goes against our Western values and it is this same ideology that has caused this whole problem and if we let it flood into our society then it is going to cause tragedy here too.

It's tough but I would only help take in some women and very young children. I don't think they'd pose a threat now or in the future and they can grow up with our values and not some screwed up and barbaric worldview.

 

[johnnytodd]

Just have a look at what is happening in countries like France, Sweden and Germany.

I do not want to watch people die and suffer, but a lot of these immigrants believe in an ideology that goes against our Western values and it is this same ideology that has caused this whole problem and if we let it flood into our society then it is going to cause tragedy here too.

It's tough but I would only help take in some women and very young children. I don't think they'd pose a threat now or in the future and they can grow up with our values and not some screwed up and barbaric worldview.

you cant say that.......... it all out fault this mess anyway cos some twat on a horse went to their country 260 years ago and robbed the spices

we just have to accept it and get on with it i'm afraid.

 

[Carver]

you cant say that.......... it all out fault this mess anyway cos some twat on a horse went to their country 260 years ago and robbed the spices

we just have to accept it and get on with it i'm afraid.

That's the problem right there, these people never forgive and that is why they are and always will be screwed up.

We have learned to forgive the German people after the horrific things they did to us and others in WW2 as they knew what they did was monstrous and pure evil.

Now we get along with them.