European Union Referendum

[Alty]

You could say exactly the same about people voting leave.

Arguably, yeah. There are some not especially well-informed people on both sides of the fence. But I don't think there's the same basic lack of understanding of their own position among Brexiteers. Their demands are quite straightforward: sovereign country; control over migration. And they rightly acknowledge that we don't have those things now.

Remainers (is that a thing?) seem to have got into their heads that business and trade will reduce drastically and UK citizens on the continent will all be deported shortly...it just isn't true.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

no we just like other countries and aren't bigots

 

[Alty]

no we just like other countries and aren't bigots

Do you like Bulgaria better than India? If so - why?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Why are you bothering? Remarks like that are either second-rate trolling or first rate imbecility. Either way, why bother?

 

[Alty]

Why are you bothering? Remarks like that are either second-rate trolling or first rate imbecility. Either way, why bother?

Because despite it being obvious and poor trolling, there's a sizeable number of people whose thought process goes no further than precisely what he's posted. People who think that Euroscepticism is inherently racist/xenophobic and that voting to stay in is an indicator that you're a nice, live and let live kind of person. Not saying there are loads of these people on 1FF, but there's almost certainly a few. I thought perhaps it was worth walking through the argument, if Ian was game.

It's quite likely that it's purely down to me making the case inadequately, but whenever I try to raise issues such as EU protectionism being catastrophic for poor farmers/traders in the developing world, I get virtually no response. I'm really not sure how to make lefty liberal internationalist types (and I don't use those terms as insults) see sense.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

nah i get what you're saying. on the brexit side u have

1. people who are opposed to the eu as is
2. people who are opposed to the concept of internationalism

on the stay in side u just have

1. people who support the concept of internationalism

no-one on either side much likes the eu, that's why i think brexit wins. sure there are people who do dislike internationalism and the eu, and, dare i say it, foreigners, but there are also people who are committed internationalists who dislike the eu as is. there's more focus

 

[Tilbury]

That's just it though - for the vast majority, it isn't. There's no appetite in the UK for deeper and deeper European integration. The British people don't believe in a move away from independent nation states towards a federal Europe. That is a view that's genuinely popular on the continent for a whole host of complex historical reasons, but it's not here.

Of course there are some people who favour staying in for genuine, well thought out reasons. I mean, if you believe in a federal technocracy, then yes - voting to stay in makes sense.

However, a hell of a lot of people of a mind to vote Remain feel that way on the basis of a series of misplaced fears and fundamental misunderstandings.

Sure there's no appetite (I'm not sure it's that popular on the continent anymore) and even as a Europhile I have no want for further integration yet or anything like a super state.


A lot of unfounded claims on both sides of what we will or won't lose post Brexit, but something we definitely won't keep is the Erasmus programme. It allows students to spend one or two semester abroad at a foreign university, with funding help from the EU. Sadly I missed the chance to do it but made a lot of friends from the programme here in England and it would be such a huge shame if the opportunity was taken away from future students.
http://erasmusprogramme.com/

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Brexiters would probably judge you a fool for being simultaneously pro-EU and anti-federalist. Personally, I share your view - I don't actually think it's very easy to sell the idea that Britain (not in the Eurozone, not part of Schengen) will imminently be a mere cog in the giant machinery of a giant European superstate. I also think that a lot of people who advocate withdrawal bang the sovereignty drum rather too much - it is, I think, a perfectly valid argument, but I don't think there's much understanding or acknowledgement of the fact that some people are not vehemently opposed to the idea of Europe possessing powers in certain areas (there are certainly plenty of areas where Europe wields little control over our lives). Personally, I find the notion that withdrawing from the Union is self-evidently the right choice (repeated ad-nauseam in this thread) objectionable and off-putting and the dismissal of post-Brexit fears disingenuous (I mean for goodness sake, it would be somewhat of an economic leap into the unknown, let's at least acknowledge that).

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Jesus, I used the dreaded Brexit word twice in that post. Swore I wouldn't do that.

Anyway, time for a musical interlude.

 

[Alty]

Sure there's no appetite (I'm not sure it's that popular on the continent anymore) and even as a Europhile I have no want for further integration yet or anything like a super state.


A lot of unfounded claims on both sides of what we will or won't lose post Brexit, but something we definitely won't keep is the Erasmus programme. It allows students to spend one or two semester abroad at a foreign university, with funding help from the EU. Sadly I missed the chance to do it but made a lot of friends from the programme here in England and it would be such a huge shame if the opportunity was taken away from future students.
http://erasmusprogramme.com/

There is still appetite for it, unfortunately. Admittedly Euroscepticism is on the rise in Northern Europe, but the desire for more integration and centralisation is a very mainstream view.

Like all these other EU-funded projects, we are massive net contributors to the EU budget so could easily fund this stuff ourselves. I can't take the idea that foreign student exchanges cease after Brexit seriously at all. I mean, it's not like people doing a year in the US is unheard of now, is it? Last time I checked they weren't in the EU...

 

[blade1889]

Like all these other EU-funded projects, we are massive net contributors to the EU budget so could easily fund this stuff ourselves. I can't take the idea that foreign student exchanges cease after Brexit seriously at all. I mean, it's not like people doing a year in the US is unheard of now, is it? Last time I checked they weren't in the EU...

The point of Erasmus though is the funds that students get to study/work in Europe. That's not the same outside of Europe. I have a friend in Germany and she couldn't have afforded to work abroad as part of her degree without the Erasmus grants, I have another friend in the US and she is entirely self funding (bar the basic government loan) and that's the same for me, thankfully I did a gap year working which is paying for a year abroad.

Not saying we couldn't fund the programmes ourselves just that comparing the US to Europe when looking at Erasmus grants is erroneous.

 

[Tilbury]

There is still appetite for it, unfortunately. Admittedly Euroscepticism is on the rise in Northern Europe, but the desire for more integration and centralisation is a very mainstream view.

Like all these other EU-funded projects, we are massive net contributors to the EU budget so could easily fund this stuff ourselves. I can't take the idea that foreign student exchanges cease after Brexit seriously at all. I mean, it's not like people doing a year in the US is unheard of now, is it? Last time I checked they weren't in the EU...

Of course, but every non-EU exchange I met (bar one American girl who had this crazy scholarship) could only come as they had wealthy parents. Foreign students in the UK have to pay even higher tuition fees than us, then of course there are the high costs of living and travel etc. Erasmus averts this as you don't pay fees to your host university, your fees to your own university cover this. Then there is the centrally awarded grant which all get, a massive help towards living costs. The links created between the participating universities is closer than anything I've seen outside this and nowhere near the scale of people involved either.
Yes as blades says.

We could afford to fund programmes like these our self, but you're placing far too much trust in a government which just wants to ideologically cut and slash and attack those with the least, most.

 

[Alty]

Brexiters would probably judge you a fool for being simultaneously pro-EU and anti-federalist. Personally, I share your view - I don't actually think it's very easy to sell the idea that Britain (not in the Eurozone, not part of Schengen) will imminently be a mere cog in the giant machinery of a giant European superstate. I also think that a lot of people who advocate withdrawal bang the sovereignty drum rather too much - it is, I think, a perfectly valid argument, but I don't think there's much understanding or acknowledgement of the fact that some people are not vehemently opposed to the idea of Europe possessing powers in certain areas (there are certainly plenty of areas where Europe wields little control over our lives). Personally, I find the notion that withdrawing from the Union is self-evidently the right choice (repeated ad-nauseam in this thread) objectionable and off-putting and the dismissal of post-Brexit fears disingenuous (I mean for goodness sake, it would be somewhat of an economic leap into the unknown, let's at least acknowledge that).

TBF I don't think many people have ever said "very imminently". It's been a slow process, but it's happening. With every new treaty comes a whole load of new areas of EU 'competence' (to use the dreadful Brussels lingo) and in between come a series of regulations and directives. Do you seriously think the next time a treaty comes round it will not involve more power for the European institutions?

Our special conditions (which aren't that special BTW - we can look at someone's passport before being obliged to let them in...great) are already a great source of irritation to other European countries. And the EU tries to undermine them every chance they get. For example, our opt-in arrangements under Protocol 21 theoretically give us a pick and choose approach to Justice and Home Affairs measures. But the EU changed the legal bases of Justice and Home Affairs measures in an attempt to force us into everything.

The one thing I will concede is that we don't know precisely what would happen after leaving. Is it possible there will be a period of economic and political instability? Yeah, it's possible. I dont judge it likely, frankly. The day after voting out the serious business of thrashing out a deal would become top priority in London and Brussels (and Paris and Berlin). It's not in anyone's interests for massive tariffs to be introduced between developed countries. This is 2016 FFS.

 

[Pyeman]

Greater sovereignty is arguably one of the key reasons that people will vote to leave the EU.

What I'd like to know is, what are the changes that leavers would like to see be made if we had greater sovereignty?

I should add that this is coming from a genuine position of not knowing rather than making a particular point.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/718679981623259136?s=09

This is a spoof account surely?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

she looks good for an old lady

 

[blade1889]

Of course, but every non-EU exchange I met (bar one American girl who had this crazy scholarship) could only come as they had wealthy parents. Foreign students in the UK have to pay even higher tuition fees than us, then of course there are the high costs of living and travel etc. Erasmus averts this as you don't pay fees to your host university, your fees to your own university cover this. Then there is the centrally awarded grant which all get, a massive help towards living costs. The links created between the participating universities is closer than anything I've seen outside this and nowhere near the scale of people involved either.
Yes as blades says.

We could afford to fund programmes like these our self, but you're placing far too much trust in a government which just wants to ideologically cut and slash and attack those with the least, most.

Genuine question Tilbury...if the referendum was at a time of a labour government would your vote still be to remain?

 

[Tilbury]

Genuine question Tilbury...if the referendum was at a time of a labour government would your vote still be to remain?

Yes, makes little difference.

 

[blade1889]

Yes, makes little difference.

Fair enough, was just your comments on mistrusting the government

 

[Tilbury]

Fair enough, was just your comments on mistrusting the government

Yeh I understand, I used it as cheap shot to attack the current government. My trust (or lack) of this layer of government has no impact really, I will always vote remain.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Surely a fear of losing a national identity is intrinsically a fear of foreign culture?

Even if we were to concede that it is (and I don't), that wouldn't somehow make it xenophobic. A phobia is an irrational aversion by definition. The word xenophobia is being used more by people to pathologize dissent than it is to accurately describe their opponents' stance on the matter.

Anyway, whatever you want to call it, I find it strange. I find the enrichment of having many cultures wonderful.

A genuine cultural exchange is brilliant, the people can be exposed to new things, embrace those that they like and discard those that they don't. That only holds true while the rate of immigration is sensible though*. Once numbers are so high that self-segregating communities manifest then you end up with something inherently divisive, something that will always disproportionately hurt the working class and leave the insulated elite to lecture us about how 'xenophobic' we are should we take issue with it.

*and varies depending on how culturally compatible the migrants are

 

[mente captus]

Even if we were to concede that it is (and I don't), that wouldn't somehow make it xenophobic. A phobia is an irrational aversion by definition. The word xenophobia is being used more by people to pathologize dissent than it is to accurately describe their opponents' stance on the matter.



A genuine cultural exchange is brilliant, the people can be exposed to new things, embrace those that they like and discard those that they don't. That only holds true while the rate of immigration is sensible though*. Once numbers are so high that self-segregating communities manifest then you end up with something inherently divisive, something that will always disproportionately hurt the working class and leave the insulated elite to lecture us about how 'xenophobic' we are should we take issue with it.

*and varies depending on how culturally compatible the migrants are

hm, 26 percent ( 18 millions) of the germans have foreign roots ( including my wife and daughter) + 8.2 million foreigners who are living here and it does not hurt our working class. our unemployment rate is the lowest since the both german states were reunited

and how you will measure if someone is culturally compatible?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

if they are white or not

 

[silkyman]

Sadly, that's worryingly close to a lot of people's thoughts.

 

[Alty]

Doesn't really make sense in the context of a discussion about EU migration though, does it?

Re mc's point above - I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Germany's working class. I would be interested in the rate of wage growth, people on long-term sick etc etc. I mean, ostensibly the employment figures here are good and have been improving for a while. But we all know which section of society has been getting the raw deal.

I think it's also sensible to point out that social and economic policies are as important (more, probably) than migration policy. And Germany seems to treat workers much better than we do.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

stay ins have taken the lead in the 1ff poll, my word

 

[mnb089mnb]

stay ins have taken the lead in the 1ff poll, my word

Outs were winning by a landslide before Alty began posting. #winkyface

 

[smat]

tbh i'm just amazed that 78 people on this forum alone already know which way they're going to vote. i've still got no idea.

so both sides - i can be bought. give me some reading pls

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

just read alty's posts and u will know which side is the right side

 

[mente captus]

Doesn't really make sense in the context of a discussion about EU migration though, does it?

Re mc's point above - I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Germany's working class. I would be interested in the rate of wage growth, people on long-term sick etc etc. I mean, ostensibly the employment figures here are good and have been improving for a while. But we all know which section of society has been getting the raw deal.

I think it's also sensible to point out that social and economic policies are as important (more, probably) than migration policy. And Germany seems to treat workers much better than we do.

average wage : 32000 € p.a.
wage growth: 4.0%
long term sick: 900k


but you have to consider that life is pretty cheap in Germany. for example: we are paying for our flat in cologne 700 € p.m. ( all including ( electricity, heating costs and so on) and we are living on 78 qm in an pretty quite part of cologne next to a park which is bigger as the most cities the most here are living in

exactly here