Fidel Castro has died

[Stevencc]

I just wanted to make the thread before Johnny.

 

[Craig]

RIP

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Think Casto's most important legacy is in Africa. The Cuban military and humanitarian intervention in Angola (in which they handed South Africa their arse at Cuito Cuanavale) effectively secured the liberation of Angola and Namibia and set in motion the downfall of Apartheid.

This is really good read from the LRB earlier this year on the subject:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n06/jeremy-harding/apartheids-last-stand

 

[smat]

Richard and Judy in 2006.

 

[nousername]

It's been a bad year for lefties

 

[Abertawe]

RIP. One of the biggest G's to have ever lived.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Yeah, apart from overseeing the sort of human rights abuses against minorities and political opponents that many a right-wing despot would be proud of. Think the way he's lionised by many on the left is kind of awful tbh.

 

[Abertawe]

Oh dear. Slaying Batista's henchmen was hardcore but with the support of the people and fairly justified. Human rights abuses against minorities? You've just made that up... Political opponents, yeah probably, kind of an obvious one given the obvious.

 

[Luc@]

He committed some mistakes but at least he was brave enough to fight against the American imperialism. RIP.

 

[Blitzballer]

Whos this Fidel casserole bloke

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Oh dear. Slaying Batista's henchmen was hardcore but with the support of the people and fairly justified. Human rights abuses against minorities? You've just made that up... Political opponents, yeah probably, kind of an obvious one given the obvious.

Arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, extrajudicial executions. Severe limits on freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of the press. Widespread censorship and surveillance. Homosexuals, conscientious objectors and dissidents confined to forced labour camps. Castro presided over all of these things (some of which are still a feature of Cuban society). Oh dear, indeed...

 

[Stevencc]

"While Cuba remains a totalitarian island, it is my hope that today marks a move away from the horrors endured for too long, and toward a future in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve," Mr Trump said in a statement.

A touching tribute from Trump.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Good.

 

[Abertawe]

Arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, extrajudicial executions. Severe limits on freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and freedom of the press. Widespread censorship and surveillance. Homosexuals, conscientious objectors and dissidents confined to forced labour camps. Castro presided over all of these things (some of which are still a feature of Cuban society). Oh dear, indeed...

Arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, extrajudicial executions, forced labour camps, widespread censorship and surveillance. If I read that without context I'd think you were talking about the US. Attitudes regarding homosexuality derived from pre revolution and no surprise a catholic country wasn't brilliant. Fidel had expressed regret and accepted responsibility for repressive treatment of homosexuals. Todays Cuba is very different and the state has presided over equality and has attempted to steer public attitudes for the better. Trans gender politicians, free gender realignment, state funded pride marches & the worlds most successful HIV programme. Not exactly Saudi Arabia is it. As I say the vast majority of other points of concern you've highlighted can be pointed to pretty much every country in the world to differing extents. I think we can file this under "expressing an opinion for the sake of having an opinion".

 

[Pliny Harris]

This forum will flip its lid when it hears about another small island nation that has over a million of its population unable to afford food, leaves hundreds of thousands of children homeless, leaves its poor elderly choosing between meals and heating, has an education system that fails to produce the required numbers of doctors and engineers, allows the mentally ill to die on its streets and proudly displays a genocidaire on a banknote, etc etc.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

Anyone who thinks he is a complete hero is just as bad as anyone who thinks he was a complete scumbag. There is a reason Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the US.


Also worth comparing and contrasting reaction from establishment/conservative figures to the death of the King of Saudi Arabia and Castro.

 

[johnnytodd]

I just wanted to make the thread before Johnny.

#youwillneverbeme

 

[spireite]

I think it's possible to dislike Castros dictatorship AND US policy and capitalism...

 

[JimJams]

YNWA

 

[Abertawe]

 

[Craig]

 

[.V.]

I say this as a social democrat, but I don't understand why Castro doesn't get the same condemnation from the left as someone like Pinochet does.

This is an interesting, all be it old, essay on that.

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/dictatorships-double-standards/

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Yeah, apart from overseeing the sort of human rights abuses against minorities and political opponents that many a right-wing despot would be proud of. Think the way he's lionised by many on the left is kind of awful tbh.

Castro's achievements were towering and monumental though. He took, what was essentially a brutal, racist, impoverished sugar plantation and brought millions out of poverty, dealt a mortal blow to apartheid in South Africa, built a universal health service that in many respects is world-leading and did so in the teeth of a US economic embargo and covert US programmes to overthrow him. Those achievements deserve respect and gratitude. The solidarity of his Cuban regime with other colonised peoples stands in marked contrast to the empire-building and self-interest of the 20th century superpowers.

Of course, the brutality of internment - of the disabled, LGBT people, of political dissidents - very much stands and deserves not to be forgotten, and so do other troubling aspects of Castro's legacy - gerontocracy with no clear succession for example. But Castro dies owning those mistakes - in particular he's described the treatment of gay people in post-revolutionary Cuba as "a great injustice" and efforts have been made to rectify the damage done in those years.

Liberal critiques of Castro that deliberately ignore the human rights records of Western powers during the same period are imo slightly disingenuous. Like, political incarceration, extra-judicial assassination, mass-surveillance and suppression of free-expression have been and to some extent still are all parts of US and UK society and political culture. Similarly, imprisonment of gay people occurred in the UK and US roughly contemporaneously to many of Cuba's most egregious abuses (the US has a torture camp in Cuba ffs). Cuba decriminalised sodomy in 1979 compared to the US where some states prosecuted sodomy with life imprisonment until 2003 when the Supreme Court struck down anti-sodomy laws (in many states, anti-sodomy laws are still used to persecute gay men).

When you consider the regimes the USA has installed or supported in Latin America since 1959, Castro's Cuba is a beacon. I'm not keen on hagiography, nor do I think that Castro's repressions can be forgiven, but the guy needs to be given his dues.

 

[Dirk]

 

[JimJams]

What a shit beard.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

Castro's achievements were towering and monumental though. He took, what was essentially a brutal, racist, impoverished sugar plantation and brought millions out of poverty, dealt a mortal blow to apartheid in South Africa, built a universal health service that in many respects is world-leading and did so in the teeth of a US economic embargo and covert US programmes to overthrow him. Those achievements deserve respect and gratitude. The solidarity of his Cuban regime with other colonised peoples stands in marked contrast to the empire-building and self-interest of the 20th century superpowers.

Of course, the brutality of internment - of the disabled, LGBT people, of political dissidents - very much stands and deserves not to be forgotten, and so do other troubling aspects of Castro's legacy - gerontocracy with no clear succession for example. But Castro dies owning those mistakes - in particular he's described the treatment of gay people in post-revolutionary Cuba as "a great injustice" and efforts have been made to rectify the damage done in those years.

Liberal critiques of Castro that deliberately ignore the human rights records of Western powers during the same period are imo slightly disingenuous. Like, political incarceration, extra-judicial assassination, mass-surveillance and suppression of free-expression have been and to some extent still are all parts of US and UK society and political culture. Similarly, imprisonment of gay people occurred in the UK and US roughly contemporaneously to many of Cuba's most egregious abuses (the US has a torture camp in Cuba ffs). Cuba decriminalised sodomy in 1979 compared to the US where some states prosecuted sodomy with life imprisonment until 2003 when the Supreme Court struck down anti-sodomy laws (in many states, anti-sodomy laws are still used to persecute gay men).

When you consider the regimes the USA has installed or supported in Latin America since 1959, Castro's Cuba is a beacon. I'm not keen on hagiography, nor do I think that Castro's repressions can be forgiven, but the guy needs to be given his dues.

Agree with much of this but the tragedy of the Stalinists is their party machine creates a new ruling class that will hand away the positives of the revolution in short order now the old guard are on their way out.

 

[Abertawe]

Alternatively

 

[johnnytodd]

They have shit cars, is all I know ohh and cigars.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

They have shit cars, is all I know ohh and cigars.

Is that the start of a song?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Castro's achievements were towering and monumental though. He took, what was essentially a brutal, racist, impoverished sugar plantation and brought millions out of poverty, dealt a mortal blow to apartheid in South Africa, built a universal health service that in many respects is world-leading and did so in the teeth of a US economic embargo and covert US programmes to overthrow him. Those achievements deserve respect and gratitude. The solidarity of his Cuban regime with other colonised peoples stands in marked contrast to the empire-building and self-interest of the 20th century superpowers.

Of course, the brutality of internment - of the disabled, LGBT people, of political dissidents - very much stands and deserves not to be forgotten, and so do other troubling aspects of Castro's legacy - gerontocracy with no clear succession for example. But Castro dies owning those mistakes - in particular he's described the treatment of gay people in post-revolutionary Cuba as "a great injustice" and efforts have been made to rectify the damage done in those years.

Liberal critiques of Castro that deliberately ignore the human rights records of Western powers during the same period are imo slightly disingenuous. Like, political incarceration, extra-judicial assassination, mass-surveillance and suppression of free-expression have been and to some extent still are all parts of US and UK society and political culture. Similarly, imprisonment of gay people occurred in the UK and US roughly contemporaneously to many of Cuba's most egregious abuses (the US has a torture camp in Cuba ffs). Cuba decriminalised sodomy in 1979 compared to the US where some states prosecuted sodomy with life imprisonment until 2003 when the Supreme Court struck down anti-sodomy laws (in many states, anti-sodomy laws are still used to persecute gay men).

When you consider the regimes the USA has installed or supported in Latin America since 1959, Castro's Cuba is a beacon. I'm not keen on hagiography, nor do I think that Castro's repressions can be forgiven, but the guy needs to be given his dues.

Yes, there are some things that one can applaud - good healthcare, an education system that produces high rates of literacy, the stance on apartheid - but these achievements are all somewhat undermined by the authoritarian nature of the regime. Personally, I find all the whataboutery (bad stuff happens in the West too - no shit!) really rather risible; a feeble attempt to deflect discussion away from the brutality and repression that was such a feature of Castro's regime (and can hardly be said to be mirrored in any Western democracy). By all means let's condemn injustice in the West, but I find it really quite mind-boggling that the sort of people who regard a Blair or a Thatcher as the devil incarnate seemingly view the complete contempt for basic freedoms and human rights in Cuba as little more than a trifling irrelevance. Interesting though it is to assess his time in power I rather suspect his achievements don't much matter - people have romanticised him to such a degree that what he symbolises is more important that what he actually did. And whilst some of those things were positive, others were objectively awful. I think what I'm saying ought to be relatively uncontroversial. I'm not trying to paint him as some sort of uniquely monstrous figure - he may even have had rather nobler aims than many other dictators the West was complicit in installing - but he was also all the things I've described him as and as such doesn't deserve to be held up by anyone as some great leftie beacon.