Gender neutral clothing

[Stringy]

Gender neutral clothing is being discussed on BBC Breakfast this morning. John Lewis has removed 'boy' and 'girl' labels on its children's clothing.

Gender is Top of the Pops at the moment. I received a tour de force from my much younger sister on the tricky ground of gender and sexuality. She was saying how gender was a human construct and explaining how there were more categories to sexuality than 'straight, gay, lesbian and bisexual'. I hadn't really thought about it any great depth.

I think I am in marginally in favour, perhaps 55-45. To pinch a line of argument from Sapiens, there are two kinds of gender, biological and imagined. Biological gender, which we can't change (although we are getting there) and imagined, which can be changed. If you look at this portrait of James II, the long curly hair, ruffly garments, stockings and heels and an arched foot used to be symbols of masculinity. In the twenty first century we would not associate masculinity with any of those features. If gender isn't fixed, then I don't see the sense in upholding barriers to progress.

I am 45 against because I think perhaps removing the labels won't change any prevailing attitudes in the short-term, which might cause unnecessary suffering. If I had a child, I don't think I am yet ready to kit it out in a pink t-shirt with a unicorn on it. Maybe in another couple of years. But not yet.

Surely though, we should be in favour of anything which allows others to express themselves more freely?

 

[Dave]

If I had a child, I don't think I am yet ready to kit it out in a pink t-shirt with a unicorn on it. Maybe in another couple of years. But not yet.

I saw this pop up on facebook the other day:

Whilst all this gender neutral stuff is fine, don't force it upon your children! The poor kid is probably going to end up being bullied to some extent and no doubt his parents are going to be those complaining at every opportunity. The school uniform is gender specific, the application has mr/mrs etc on it. What toilet does the genderless child use? I guess this for another thread!

I'm not sure on the gender neutral clothing idea. Removing the word boys and girls from the label to make people happy shouldn't be a big job though should it? How far will people moan about it? Until all clothes are on the racks mixed up rather than a section of boys and girls?

 

[Smudge]

Gender neutral clothing is being discussed on BBC Breakfast this morning. John Lewis has removed 'boy' and 'girl' labels on its children's clothing.

Gender is Top of the Pops at the moment. I received a tour de force from my much younger sister on the tricky ground of gender and sexuality. She was saying how gender was a human construct and explaining how there were more categories to sexuality than 'straight, gay, lesbian and bisexual'. I hadn't really thought about it any great depth.

I think I am in marginally in favour, perhaps 55-45. To pinch a line of argument from Sapiens, there are two kinds of gender, biological and imagined. Biological gender, which we can't change (although we are getting there) and imagined, which can be changed. If you look at this portrait of James II, the long curly hair, ruffly garments, stockings and heels and an arched foot used to be symbols of masculinity. In the twenty first century we would not associate masculinity with any of those features. If gender isn't fixed, then I don't see the sense in upholding barriers to progress.

I am 45 against because I think perhaps removing the labels won't change any prevailing attitudes in the short-term, which might cause unnecessary suffering. If I had a child, I don't think I am yet ready to kit it out in a pink t-shirt with a unicorn on it. Maybe in another couple of years. But not yet.

Surely though, we should be in favour of anything which allows others to express themselves more freely?

Great post. I think that makes a point a lot of people miss, in that sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological, and short of an op, cant be changed. Gender is fluid, and a complete construct of society at the time. Gender norms are things like the idea that the wife must do the cooking and cleaning, little boys can play with footballs but not with dolls.

One of my best friends at college was gay. He was one of those guys who was generally not your stereotypical uber camp guy, but when you got to know him more and spent time hanging out with him, he also loved stuff like musical theatre, and going to Zumba! The question Ive always had about this stereotype that gay men like 'girly' things, is it not just that society has basically conformed us to think that men cant like girly things in case people label them as gay? Its not being gay that makes gay men like these things, more that they are already out there as gay, so they have nothing to fear from owning up to things they like?

Getting on to the actual topic of gender clothing, I dont think a lot of men realise just how gendered clothing actually is. I read a great thread on Twitter this morning about a woman buying her children school uniforms. How things that you even think are genderless, such as school trousers, we have to endure a women's 'fit.' Women's fit is generally tighter, figure hugging, doesnt have pockets, and predominantly quite uncomfortable. Schools often ban kids from wearing 'boots.' Yet try and find me a decent pair of girls school shoes, compared to boy's shoes. Even school shirts are different for boys and girls, going back to that 'women's fit' thing again. And when it comes to skirts, uniforms are often restrictive there too, usually stipulating shorter tighter skirts that restrict your movement. Ever played football on the playground at lunchtime in a skirt? I was fortunate I guess to go to a very strict old fashioned school, where our skirts had to be mid knee to mid calf, so I actually chose to wear a skirt when they offered a choice between that and pants, because the skirt I had was comfortable. And had pockets in, score! And then there are tights, the most uncomfortable clothing creation since the bra. I had frozen legs for 5 years rather than mess with tights.

Then there are PE kits of course. Ours at school consisted of a white polo shirt, with black shorts for boys, and for girls, a very short black gym skirt with black gym knickers underneath. Now one day when I was about 14, I lost my gym skirt. So I dug out a pair of black football shorts for PE the following week. I was told I couldnt wear them and to do PE in just the gym knickers. I dont know about anyone else, but as a 14 year old girl, I cant think of anything more mortifying than being forced to do PE in a mixed sex class, wearing only a pair of skimpy gym knickers. So I refused. I asked what was wrong with the shorts I had on, and was told they were 'dangerous.' I pointed out that all of the boys in the same class were wearing shoirts identical to mine so shouldnt they therefore be told to take their shorts off and do athletics in their underwear? Thankfully they didnt push it, so I wore the shorts until I left, even though I found my skirt the following week!

The thing is, so much of clothing reinforces everything sexist in society, and that goes for men and women. The majority of women's clothes is all about making her look as pretty as possible, something nice for society to look at, while men's clothing is so much more about practicality and comfort. All of this, from birth, just reinforces everything about that to children. It's about possibility, toys, clothes etc. are marketed towards children as helping to make boys good with their hands, the rough and tough provider who can be anything he wants to be. Girls are pretty, impractical, learn to cook and clean and rear your inevitable children and look pretty for your husband. Anyone who deviates from that is inevitably ridiculed. If a boy wants to play with dolls or wear a nice pink t shirt with a rainbow unicorn on it, he's gay. If a little girl wears comfortable fitting men's clothes and likes fixing cars, she's a lesbian or will never land a husband.

 

[Liam_SWFC]

These transgender people are mentally ill and need help, if you're born with a cock you are a bloke end of, and vice versa if you have a snatch. Having it rammed down our throats by the pc brigade is wrong.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

These transgender people are mentally ill and need help, if you're born with a cock you are a bloke end of, and vice versa if you have a snatch. Having it rammed down our throats by the pc brigade is wrong.

what about people born with both?

doesn't seem like it's any of your business whether someone says they're a woman or not.

 

[Smudge]

These transgender people are mentally ill and need help, if you're born with a cock you are a bloke end of, and vice versa if you have a snatch. Having it rammed down our throats by the pc brigade is wrong.

So they're mentally ill and need help, but you're still telling them they're wrong? Great help.

If you're acknowledging it as a mental illness, why is it the PC brigade ramming it down our throats? Does it only depend on what the mental illness is? Should we not help people with eating disorders (a lot of which are related to mental illness, rather than any physical issues) or depression, or suicidal tendencies, or split personalities? Or is it just the mental illnesses that make the rest of society question what is 'normal' and feel uncomfortable?

My dad is one of those who gets freaked out by this kind of stuff. He genuinely asked me the other day if this is just a new thing and how come you never used to hear about it years ago. I pointed out homosexuality has only been legal for the last 50 years, so does he think nobody was gay before 1967, or did they just have to hide it, or spend their lives repressing it and hating themselves? You never heard of cancer, or anorexia years ago either, it doesnt mean they didnt exist, we just didnt have as great an understanding of things.

 

[Blitzballer]

I saw this pop up on facebook the other day:

View attachment 7040

Whilst all this gender neutral stuff is fine, don't force it upon your children! The poor kid is probably going to end up being bullied to some extent and no doubt his parents are going to be those complaining at every opportunity. The school uniform is gender specific, the application has mr/mrs etc on it. What toilet does the genderless child use? I guess this for another thread!

I'm not sure on the gender neutral clothing idea. Removing the word boys and girls from the label to make people happy shouldn't be a big job though should it? How far will people moan about it? Until all clothes are on the racks mixed up rather than a section of boys and girls?

Poor kid

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

The vast majority of trans people just want to blend in. You can blame the "PC brigade" or the "loony left" or whatever, but believe me when I say trans people didn't ask for any of this. The right to be themselves sure, but that's all.