General Election 2019

[GodsGift]

How the hell has Corbyn not resigned yet?!

 

[Gassy]

How the hell has Corbyn not resigned yet?!

He said he won't lead the party at another election, which is pretty much as good as for now.

What are people's thoughts on Scotland having a 2nd referendum?

 

[Fompous Part]

The SNP won 45% of the vote in Scotland. The Green Party (1%) are generally pro-independence, so let's be super generous and say the pro-independence vote was 46%. The remaining 54% voted for pro-Union parties.

On every important metric (total votes, vote share, seats won, etc.) the SNP did significantly better in 2015, which was before the EU referendum. No doubt Sturgeon, Blackford, et al. will say this result provides a mandate for IndyRef2, but it's a nonsense.

It was good night for the SNP, and credit to them. But if you ignore seat distribution (i.e. FPTP nonsense) and look at vote share, there is little evidence that opinion in Scotland has shifted very much since 2014.

 

[Fompous Part]

^
Of course, logical consistency requires me to concede that, taking a UK wide view, approx. 45% voted for pro-Brexit parties and 55% voted for pro-Remain.

I can’t pretend I’m happy about that. I say it after every election, but FPTP is a terrible system and needs to go.

 

[Fompous Part]

now to take a big sip of coffee and check the

Probably no consolation whatsoever at this point, but it does seem that your efforts in Alyn and Deeside (LAB hold with majority of 213) made a positive difference.

Too many people (on all sides) think politics involves little more than casting a vote and being a snarky bellend on Twitter. Kudos to you and your fellow campaigners for putting the hours in and getting involved properly.

Sorry if this sounds condescending (not the intention). I just wanted to say something because I know how difficult it can be when you work full-time, have familial responsibilities, etc. And I know how shit it is when the overall result doesn't go your way.

FWIW, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what's next, especially with regard to the Labour leadership.

 

[Gassy]

^
Of course, logical consistency requires me to concede that, taking a UK wide view, approx. 45% voted for pro-Brexit parties and 55% voted for pro-Remain.

I can’t pretend I’m happy about that. I say it after every election, but FPTP is a terrible system and needs to go.

Lol got in there before I could.

FPTP needs to be looked at without a doubt, how Cameron was allowed to change the seat distribution amazes me as well. Just because a government has power, does that mean they can just change it however they want? Scary thought it so.

But how would we fix it? What voting system would we go for? Obviously nothing will change though as it works for the Tories, so unless someone else get's in - nothing will change.

As for Scotland, I'm fully behind a 2nd referendum. They completely deserve it after they have been pretty much stabbed in the back. I fear a situation like Catalonia coming along

 

[Fompous Part]

I favour the MMP variety of proportional representation (see here), which is used for the electing people to the devolved parliaments in Scotland and Wales. It maintains the idea of having a constituency MP (which is very important, IMO), but also allows for a more proportional allocation of seats overall.

But yeah… I can’t see it changing. The problem is what it’s always been: only a party with a workable majority can initiate the process towards electoral reform, and no party that has just won a majority via FPTP has much incentive to dismantle that system. Both Labour and the Tories are equally complicit in this.

 

[Chris FGR]

Woke up to the news my entire city has gone blue.

Utterly depressing that a working class city has voted for the Tories. Unbelievable.

Get Brexit Done clearly a vote winner in leave areas.

Shouldn't have been the main issue at this election though, it's actually far less important to the majority of people's daily lives then most of the other policies.

 

[Gassy]

I favour the MMP variety of proportional representation (see here), which is used for the electing people to the devolved parliaments in Scotland and Wales. It maintains the idea of having a constituency MP (which is very important, IMO), but also allows for a more proportional allocation of seats overall.

But yeah… I can’t see it changing. The problem is what it’s always been: only a party with a workable majority can initiate the process towards electoral reform, and no party that has just won a majority via FPTP has much incentive to dismantle that system. Both Labour and the Tories are equally complicit in this.

Thanks for this. But does the winner of the ruling party usually win the most seats as well? Let's say Tories won as ruling party and Labour won the seats, surely they'd just block everything?

Or am I missing something?

 

[Modernist]

He said he won't lead the party at another election, which is pretty much as good as for now.

What are people's thoughts on Scotland having a 2nd referendum?

I would want one if I was Scottish. They hate the Tories yet they are governed by them, they want to remain in the EU but they are forced to leave.

I hope they have another one and vote to leave the union, something I never thought I'd say.....And I wish them all the best when they do.

As for us in England, well who knows what will happen, as a remainer I can't see things going well, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Chief Rocka]

Not much to say really, gutted with how it’s turned out but proud of Hartlepool voting Labour in again and rejecting the god awful Richard Tice and his Brexit Party racist twats.

BXP and CON cancelled each other out thankfully, Mike Hill was sweating bullets at one point, should never of been this close though, shows a wide scale rejection of Jeremy Corbyn who outside of the London bubble is universally hated.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

What are people's thoughts on Scotland having a 2nd referendum?

SNP - "Give us a another referendum!"

Gov. - "No."

SNP -

 

[Gassy]

SNP - "Give us a another referendum!"

Gov. - "No."

SNP -

I think it's more likely of a Catalonia situation tbh.

Can the Tories keep denying the people & government of Scotland what they want?

After all, it's a democracy - why should the English decide Scotland's future?

 

[Modernist]

BXP and CON cancelled each other out thankfully, Mike Hill was sweating bullets at one point, should never of been this close though, shows a wide scale rejection of Jeremy Corbyn who outside of the London bubble is universally hated.

Yet when I've heard people say they don't like him they never seem to be asked or give a reason why. Can't help but think the hatchet job the media have done has worked, I don't think we're a particularly intelligent electorate.

 

[Agombar stool]

I think it's more likely of a Catalonia situation tbh.

Can the Tories keep denying the people & government of Scotland what they want?

After all, it's a democracy - why should the English decide Scotland's future?

They will argue that it was stated that it was a once in a generation vote - whatever the parameters of that are.

Its now slightly skewed by the fact that Scotland voted to stay in the EU which they are now being taken out of 'against their wishes'. I'm not sure if there is any legal precedence in that or anything.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think it's more likely of a Catalonia situation tbh.

Can the Tories keep denying the people & government of Scotland what they want?

After all, it's a democracy - why should the English decide Scotland's future?

Well they haven't done that much denying, they granted them a "once in a generation" referendum five years ago in which the Scottish people rejected independence. I can see the argument for a second referendum as there has been a material change in the Union (although did anyone make that argument when we joined the EU?) but I think it's unreasonable to demand it be held before we've fully left the EU with a trade deal in place, before Scots know what staying in the UK actually looks like. That's based on democratic principle, but in practicaly terms I suspect the whole thing will be a waste of time. The realities of leaving the United Kingdom are so much worse for Scotland than leaving the European Union. I think a Yes vote winning now is much less likely than it ever was in 2014.

 

[Gassy]

Well they haven't done that much denying, they granted them a "once in a generation" referendum five years ago in which the Scottish people rejected independence. I can see the argument for a second referendum as there has been a material change in the Union (although did anyone make that argument when we joined the EU?) but I think it's unreasonable to demand it be held before we've fully left the EU with a trade deal in place, before Scots know what staying in the UK actually looks like. That's based on democratic principle, but in practicaly terms I suspect the whole thing will be a waste of time. The realities of leaving the United Kingdom are so much worse for Scotland than leaving the European Union. I think a Yes vote winning now is much less likely than it ever was in 2014.

I agree with denying until we've completely left the UK. The issue is, will Boris listen to any of the opposition or just purely plough on with what he thinks? With English remainers, we are slaves to Boris' ideas now - but he also has to protect our union as well, so Scotland will have to be listened to, although it seem's their demands will be free movement & customers union etc.

I think Scotland would be fine leaving the UK, especially now we're leaving the EU - I think it's even more likely that they would prosper (providing they got into the EU that is, although it would probably take quite a while).

By 2025 I think the political landscape in the UK will look very very different to 2015 - almost unrecognisable.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think a hard border between England and Scotland and the neccessary adoption of the Euro currency are both going to be just as unpopular as they were in 2014, when the SNP were at pains to assure voters that those things would never ever happen.

 

[smat]

Probably no consolation whatsoever at this point, but it does seem that your efforts in Alyn and Deeside (LAB hold with majority of 213) made a positive difference.

Too many people (on all sides) think politics involves little more than casting a vote and being a snarky bellend on Twitter. Kudos to you and your fellow campaigners for putting the hours in and getting involved properly.

Sorry if this sounds condescending (not the intention). I just wanted to say something because I know how difficult it can be when you work full-time, have familial responsibilities, etc. And I know how shit it is when the overall result doesn't go your way.

FWIW, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what's next, especially with regard to the Labour leadership.

Thank you Drew. That's a really nice message and not at all condescending. It is a pretty horrible moment and I do appreciate it.

It's too soon for me to say really as I'm still processing it. The scale of the defeat is beyond even my worst fears. Our policies, by and large, are quite popular (though I was finding that some people were a bit overwhelmed and sceptical about the number of pledges). The biggest problems were Brexit and Corbyn's reputation. I don't think Labour could really have done much else with regard to the former - we would have suffered a Remain squeeze from the Lib Dems if we had stuck with the 2017 position, and we were never going to be able to out-Brexit the Tories. I suppose not all problems have a solution.

The centre are gleefully sticking the boot in (I reckon the Guardian op-eds are just drafts the ghouls didn't get to file in 2017) but they have been thoroughly repudiated as well. If centrism was the answer then the Lib Dems wouldn't have been decapitated. We have to keep making the case for transformative policies that will materially improve people's lives. I think the left has the numbers in the PLP to nominate someone who will do this and then it will be down to the members to sign it off.

Obviously whoever replaces Corbyn will face just as much of a collective hatchet job from our beloved media, but it's hard to believe we can find someone with quite as much baggage. That is cold comfort today.

Labour needs to convince people in towns that we are their party again, and it also needs to hold onto its mass membership otherwise it is toast. I don't see Keir Starmer doing either of these things, pleased though the Guardian would be to see him win the leadership. Mention of Jess Phillips makes me laugh. You probably couldn't pick a Labour MP with less chance of winning over the membership. The more logical successors are Angela Rayner or Rebecca Long-Bailey.

With the electoral map Corbyn leaves behind, not to mention boundary changes and even voter ID laws, 2024 will be incredibly difficult for whoever takes his place.

 

[Dave-Vale]

Has to be Rayner for me. Although I’d be worried about the extent of the hatchet job the media could do on her considering her background.

 

[Fompous Part]

^ Her backstory might be the best thing she has going for her. Overcame a very inauspicious start (raised on a council estate by a single mother, left school with no qualifications, up the duff at 16) in a genuinely impressive way. I think any classist attack on her background, identity, accent, etc. would backfire horribly.

 

[Millerbri]

Today is the day I must apologise to my children.

We spent their whole childhood telling them that they should be polite, generous and to always treat other people with respect.
We also told them that cheats and liars never prosper.

Sorry kids it appears that most of the country dont agree.

It truly is Black Friday.

 

[Dave-Vale]

^ Her backstory might be the best thing she has going for her. Overcame a very inauspicious start (raised on a council estate by a single mother, left school with no qualifications, up the duff at 16) in a genuinely impressive way. I think any classist attack on her background, identity, accent, etc. would backfire horribly.

It might but the media are very good at convincing the working class to think and act a certain way. They’d want to convince them that she isn’t smart enough etc.. but as you say her background could (and should) be a huge draw for a lot of people.

 

[Laker]

I think it's more likely of a Catalonia situation tbh.

Can the Tories keep denying the people & government of Scotland what they want?

After all, it's a democracy - why should the English decide Scotland's future?

The SNP didn’t get a majority in Scotland and then there’s assuming all of them would vote to leave.

 

[Gassy]

The SNP didn’t get a majority in Scotland and then there’s assuming all of them would vote to leave.

If they didn’t get a majority in Scotland then neither did the Tories get a majority for the UK.

Not really sure I understand your logic?

 

[Camborne Gills]

I think Jeanette Krankie is using that to try and force another referendum that they won't win.

Wasn't it 55-45 to stay last time?

In other news, well done to Jo Swinson for her 144 days as 'leader' of the Lib Undemocrats.
I've seen snowmen last longer than that!!

 

[Super_horns]

From claiming she could be Prime Minister to losing her job eh ?

Some downfall !!

 

[Laker]

If they didn’t get a majority in Scotland then neither did the Tories get a majority for the UK.

Not really sure I understand your logic?

I’m saying that there’s no evidence to suggest that a majority of Scots want to leave the UK, at least based on the general election results this week.

 

[Gassy]

I’m saying that there’s no evidence to suggest that a majority of Scots want to leave the UK, at least based on the general election results this week.

If that’s the case, then there is more evidence of UK citizens wanting to stay in the EU than leave it.

 

[Laker]

If that’s the case, then there is more evidence of UK citizens wanting to stay in the EU than leave it.

But we had a referendum that said otherwise, one we were promised would be a once in a lifetime question and would be fully respected by parliament. There’s already been one Scottish referendum that said they want to stay. There’s no evidence that sentiment has changed at all.

Edit: for the record, I don’t have a problem with them going but Sturgeon claiming it’s the will of the people etc is way off the mark. If I was Scottish I’d probably vote to leave too.