General Election 2019

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Brexit is pathetic & undesirable - and will cost our country and people a hell of a lot more. And that’s not just in monetary value.

But at least we’ll have a proven liar, unlawful, suppressor of information & Russian state lead fool with power - what could go wrong?

I'd wager that a Corbyn government would hurt the economy more than a WTO Brexit would, not to mention the effect ignoring the referendum result would have on our democracy. And I suspect if the Russians are backing anyone in this it's probably the guy that would like to remove our nuclear deterrent, cut military funding, see NATO dissolve and who is alarmingly friendly with many of the West's enemies.

The Tories are pioneers of state controlled internet. Snoopers charter and porn verification ring any bells?

Oh please don't mistake me for a Tory. If I defend them this time it's purely because the prospect of a Corbyn government is genuinely horrifying, and they're the only party with any kind of position and inclination to get Brexit done. As soon as that's out of the way the entire party can collapse as far as I'm concerned. There's been a slight glimmer of hope throughout this whole mess that they might emerge as a conservative party in more than name only, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[Gassy]

You’re coming across as a Tory through and through. You literally spout the latest Tory punch line on here week after week. Now you’re suggesting if anyone is being back by Russians, it’s Labour Keep on putting your head in the sand there, fella.

Corbyn also wouldn’t ignore the referendum result, he said he’d negotiate a deal. What’s the next Tory quote you’ll put to us?

I’ll take your wager though, easy win.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

Free broadband announcement has been great, triggered all the free market headbangers Saw someone saying "next they'll say free water" like it was a killer retort when in fact it ought to be up there on the agenda with all the major utilities. Maybe magic grandpa isn't as doomed as he looked.

 

[Jockney]

Oh, I don't say it because it's not possible, I say it because it's pathetic and desperate and undesirable. Even though it won't happen it's definitely achievable. It would be wildly expensive and no one would be getting anything for 'free', but at least you'd have a Marxist with power over your new state-run internet. What could go wrong.

It is being funded by a unitary tax on companies like Amazon and involves not only bringing much of BT back into public ownership but also the creation of Digital Rights charter to protect citizens from surveillance. That is the real of it, not some frankly deranged fantasy about Jeremy Corbyn somehow managing to seize executive function over the state's security apparatus. lol.

What's happened to you, eh, lad? You've gone from 'Sensible Liberal' Concern Troll to a frothing-at-the-mouth petty nationalist in what seems like less than three years.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You’re coming across as a Tory through and through. You literally spout the latest Tory punch line on here week after week. Now you’re suggesting if anyone is being back by Russians, it’s Labour Keep on putting your head in the sand there, fella.

I don't think anybody is backed by the Russians, those are hysterical scare stories for the simpletons to lap up, but certainly if you're an enemy of Britain and want to see us weakened then Corbyn would be your preferred PM.

Corbyn also wouldn’t ignore the referendum result, he said he’d negotiate a deal.

He said he'd negotiate a new deal and then hold another referendum with Remain as an option, thus invalidating the original referendum result. That's not spin, that's a fact.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It is being funded by a unitary tax on companies like Amazon and involves not only bringing much of BT back into public ownership but also the creation of Digital Rights charter to protect citizens from surveillance. That is the real of it, not some frankly deranged fantasy about Jeremy Corbyn somehow managing to seize executive function over the state's security apparatus.

It was revealed in the last 24 hours that Labour's estimate of £230m yearly maintenance costs were off by about £460m because John McDonnell & co. don't know how to use a spreadsheet. No word on the £57bn in pension liability costs either. Probably not worth talking authoritatively about where the money will come from when Labour don't seem to know themselves. As for civil liberties, you have much more faith in Jez than I do.

What's happened to you, eh, lad? You've gone from 'Sensible Liberal' Concern Troll to a frothing-at-the-mouth petty nationalist in what seems like less than three years.

I don't think I have changed, though perhaps the comforting array of caricatures you have to draw from has.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

As if the state can't just nick your data anyway as it stands, plus all the private interests getting easier access.

 

[Gassy]

I don't think anybody is backed by the Russians, those are hysterical scare stories for the simpletons to lap up, but certainly if you're an enemy of Britain and want to see us weakened then Corbyn would be your preferred PM.



He said he'd negotiate a new deal and then hold another referendum with Remain as an option, thus invalidating the original referendum result. That's not spin, that's a fact.

How would he be? Because he doesn’t believe in bombing Syria and he believes in countries de-nucliaising? That bastard.

No, instead the idea of dropping the pound EVEN LOWER, the idea of raising the pension age to 75, no trade deals set up with half of the word, a hard border with Ireland (potentially starting violence again), the break up of the UK and privatization of the NHS - that won’t weaken us, we will be stronger for it

The Lib Dems are looking to ignore the referendum. Labour will as you say strangely campaign to leave, but ignoring it would he cancelling/revoking article 50. If you consider that having remain on the ballet paper as ignoring it, are you then concerned that remain would win?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

How would he be? Because he doesn’t believe in bombing Syria and he believes in countries de-nucliaising? That bastard.

He's talked enthusiastically about cutting the budget of an already underfunded military for decades. And yes, he does want to remove our nuclear deterrence capabilities. Whatever you think of that you can't deny that our enemies would be glad about it.

No, instead the idea of dropping the pound EVEN LOWER, the idea of raising the pension age to 75, no trade deals set up with half of the word, a hard border with Ireland (potentially starting violence again), the break up of the UK and privatization of the NHS - that won’t weaken us, we will be stronger for it

What do you think would happen to the pound if Jezza was elected? Nobody is pledging to increase the pension age to 75. Nobody is going to set up a hard border with Ireland. Nobody is pledging to privatize the NHS. This is fantasy. What on Earth have you been reading?

The Lib Dems are looking to ignore the referendum. Labour will as you say strangely campaign to leave, but ignoring it would he cancelling/revoking article 50. If you consider that having remain on the ballet paper as ignoring it, are you then concerned that remain would win?

Of course I am, because why would Remainers negotiate a good deal with the EU, when they can gaurantee a Remain win by negotiating a weak one? Labour have already vowed to campaign against their own deal for crying out loud. The options on the ballot would amount to Remain versus Remain-lite. The original referendum result would be wiped out, and no matter the outcome the Remainers would have their Brexit betrayal.

 

[Gassy]

You do know JC is a leaver, right?

Obama wanted to lower the amount of nuclear weapons - most do, but it’s a game of chicken. I want JC to do it, but only if we all do it together. What did you think, JC was going to wipe out our nuclear weapons overnight?

I was specific with my words, I never said anyone has pledged anything, you did. I said the idea of - and what have I been reading? Boris not refusing NHS deal with Trump, the idea of retirement age going up & the fact that there will be a border in the event of a no deal - otherwise we might as well start telling every refugee in France to come to Ireland and then you have free, unchecked entry into the UK. Imagine how many people and illegal imports would suddenly come through Ireland (both ways), it would be a matter of days before a border goes up - never mind the tariffs that will be applied to goods crossing legally

 

[Gladders]

Sunday polls make Grim reading for non tories. Yougov has them on a 17pt lead!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1195815404129660928

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

That is not a surprise, I’ve never seen more ineptness than how labour and the Lib Dem’s have gone over the last two years.
I’m and it will lead to a hard brexit (I think the hardliners have played absolute blinders) which will in the end be blamed on labour for all issues caused.

if people wonder why no one buys into renationalisation costs, look no further than hs2......government costs always spiral.

labour could just have made it simple, attack the costs of boris brexit, attack the mistakes tories made during austerity (easy to attack since they now backtrack on a few)

Gave a few simple ideas, improving rail in north, social care, more local government money.
and attack full on Johnson selling nhs to trump.

Instead they come up with ideas for free movement, mass nationalisation and numerous giveaways........makes them such easy prey for the right wing media and makes them look completely out of depth.

the non degree, basic hard grafting lower and middle classes are not thick, they just like simple basic solutions to current issues........it can be called lies and deceit but the leave eu side have been much more effective at this than labour are.

labour need a Complete change top to bottom, their idiotic ‘revolution’ studenty type b*llocks of the last 8 years will win them nothing but eternal Tory governments

 

[Modernist]

That is not a surprise, I’ve never seen more ineptness than how labour and the Lib Dem’s have gone over the last two years.
I’m and it will lead to a hard brexit (I think the hardliners have played absolute blinders) which will in the end be blamed on labour for all issues caused.

if people wonder why no one buys into renationalisation costs, look no further than hs2......government costs always spiral.

labour could just have made it simple, attack the costs of boris brexit, attack the mistakes tories made during austerity (easy to attack since they now backtrack on a few)

Gave a few simple ideas, improving rail in north, social care, more local government money.
and attack full on Johnson selling nhs to trump.

Instead they come up with ideas for free movement, mass nationalisation and numerous giveaways........makes them such easy prey for the right wing media and makes them look completely out of depth.

the non degree, basic hard grafting lower and middle classes are not thick, they just like simple basic solutions to current issues........it can be called lies and deceit but the leave eu side have been much more effective at this than labour are.

labour need a Complete change top to bottom, their idiotic ‘revolution’ studenty type b*llocks of the last 8 years will win them nothing but eternal Tory governments

But thats what they believe in, do you change that just to get into power?

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

Yes
because if you are not in power what you would like is utterly worthless.
get into power on simple, sensible stuff, then you have 5 years to look at more radical ideas.

you cannot as opposition moan about five years of Tory rule if you frankly make yourself unelectable.

 

[Fompous Part]

Brown and Miliband both tried the cautious “look, we’ll redistribute more than the Tories but won’t rock the neoliberal boat too much” approach, and both lost with a piss poor share of the popular vote (29% and 30%, respectively). Perhaps their poor performance owed something to their personalities – Brown had all the charm of soiled underwear, and Miliband couldn’t even eat a bacon sarnie without looking retarded – but the fact remains that Labour’s GE2017 manifesto was their most popular for about two decades.

Not all conservative-minded people are free market ideologues. Many ordinary conservatives are very open to the idea that the best way to improve the railways, social care for the elderly, pre-school childcare, housing provision, etc. is for the government to take a much more active role, up to and including (if necessary) nationalisation. Labour shouldn’t shy away from those big ideas if they believe in them. Also, if they intend to be radical, the electorate deserves to know that before they go to the polling station.

The main problem for Labour (at least as far as this stuff is concerned) is pretty much what it has been for the last two decades. High levels of support for redistributing wealth require high levels of social trust, solidarity and a strong sense of belonging. It’s no coincidence that Labour’s heyday was the immediate aftermath of WW2. Now, the party is full of middle-class graduates who advocate for open borders, voting rights for non-citizens, mass immigration, cultural relativism, chippy identity politics, etc. – all things that erode the emotional foundation on which any sustained level of support for social democracy might be built. I personally can’t see them winning a majority until they get past that curious piece of cognitive dissonance, but I don't think a more ‘pragmatic’, centrist, managerial, or Blairite approach to policy would fare much better.

As for GE2019, the recent polling data for Labour looks bad but no worse than it did at this stage two years ago. Actually, it’s better. A month is a long time in politics and so far there is little evidence that the Tories have learnt much from their absolute shitshow of a campaign in 2017. I see no reason to revise my prediction from a week ago.

 

[Modernist]

Yes
because if you are not in power what you would like is utterly worthless.
get into power on simple, sensible stuff, then you have 5 years to look at more radical ideas.

you cannot as opposition moan about five years of Tory rule if you frankly make yourself unelectable.

And then lose the next election. You either stand for what you believe in or don't bother. If you do that's not worthless whether your in power or not. And lets not forget the tories were 20+ % ahead going into the last election and it ended up a hung parliament. But Brexit will have the main effect on the election, but that said I agree if Labour want power they will have to 'pull back'.

 

[Fompous Part]

If we do get a 2nd vote, I will probably vote leave next time around.

Why?

 

[Camborne Gills]

It was revealed in the last 24 hours that Labour's estimate of £230m yearly maintenance costs were off by about £460m because John McDonnell & co. don't know how to use a spreadsheet. No word on the £57bn in pension liability costs either. Probably not worth talking authoritatively about where the money will come from when Labour don't seem to know themselves. As for civil liberties, you have much more faith in Jez than I do.



I don't think I have changed, though perhaps the comforting array of caricatures you have to draw from has.

Or they let Diane Abbott do the maths again

 

[Gladders]

Or they let Diane Abbott do the maths again

Everything is free so she can't get it wrong

 

[Laker]

What does everyone think of the SNP and Lib Dems being excluded from ITV’s debate? I’m personally not arsed as I can’t/wouldn’t vote for them anyway.

 

[Fompous Part]

I always struggle to be objective about the SNP (so take this with an industrial-sized vat of salt), but I don’t think there is any good reason for their inclusion. They only stand in Scotland, they are hellbent on leaving the Union anyway, and I can’t think of any reason for their inclusion that wouldn’t equally justify the inclusion of Plaid Cymru or any of the parties in Northern Ireland.

STV (the Scottish regional variant of ITV) has recently announced a live debate between the various party leaders in Scotland. They should be content with that. I think their legal challenge was more about creating a moment of grudge-and-grievance political theatre (“Those evil Sassenachs don’t care about us plucky Scots”), which is petty and sad but what they do.

The Liberal Democrats should have been included. They are standing throughout the UK and may be the king-makers in a hung parliament. Yes, Jo Swinson is bloody annoying, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to exclude her.

 

[Camborne Gills]

I always struggle to be objective about the SNP (so take this with an industrial-sized vat of salt), but I don’t think there is any good reason for their inclusion. They only stand in Scotland, they are hellbent on leaving the Union anyway, and I can’t think of any reason for their inclusion that wouldn’t equally justify the inclusion of Plaid Cymru or any of the parties in Northern Ireland.

STV (the Scottish regional variant of ITV) has recently announced a live debate between the various party leaders in Scotland. They should be content with that. I think their legal challenge was more about creating a moment of grudge-and-grievance political theatre (“Those evil Sassenachs don’t care about us plucky Scots”), which is petty and sad but what they do.

The Liberal Democrats should have been included. They are standing throughout the UK and may be the king-makers in a hung parliament. Yes, Jo Swinson is bloody annoying, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to exclude her.

Yes it is, in fact more than enough! Although it was amusing to see Piers Morgan tear her a new one on GMB during conference season.

 

[Gassy]

What does everyone think of the SNP and Lib Dems being excluded from ITV’s debate? I’m personally not arsed as I can’t/wouldn’t vote for them anyway.

Personally I'm not bothered, but I can see why some people might be. But ultimately, if the Lib Dems are included then the Brexit party should be as well - as polls seem to indicate that Lib Dems have 16%, whilst Brexit is about 10%.

SNP is of course pointless, as they're not representing the entire of the UK.

 

[Millerbri]

We've just had 9 years of the poorest parts of the country paying for tax breaks for the richest people in the country.

We've got a PM that is a proven liar and can't wait to hand over our country to Mr Trump.
He wants out of the EU to provide his friends in the USA with a nice little toy.

He owns 90% of the press and TV so is able to demonise the Labour party and Corbyn in particular.
So it's not too surprising that people still want to vote for the Tories.

I'm not particularly political and don't see the point in getting involved debating back and forth because most people are set in their ways and wont change their minds.

But, I will never understand why an ordinary working man doesn't want a strong NHS, and I can't see what's wrong in having the power, water and railways belonging to the country, instead of pouring money into already filthy rich men's pockets.

Just my view of course and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, only you can do that.

 

[Fompous Part]

First TV debate tonight. I suspect grouting the shower would be a more productive and intellectually stimulating use of my time, but I'll probably watch anyway.

It's a good format for Corbyn, especially since it's just him and Johnson. The government has a record to defend. Corbyn doesn't. Also, Uncle Jez is quite good at this sort of thing, while Johnson tends to struggle unless he's in front of a receptive audience.

 

[Gassy]

First TV debate tonight. I suspect grouting the shower would be a more productive and intellectually stimulating use of my time, but I'll probably watch anyway.

It's a good format for Corbyn, especially since it's just him and Johnson. The government has a record to defend. Corbyn doesn't. Also, Uncle Jez is quite good at this sort of thing, while Johnson tends to struggle unless he's in front of a receptive audience.

I agree with this, also like 5Live was also saying earlier, it’s the governments to lose as they can always get the attention of the entire nation as/when they please, which is much harder to do for any opposition.

I’d like to watch it, but tonight I’m going to watch Rovers drop out the cup to Bromley & also have Wales Vs Hungary on in the background - I’ll catch up on ITV player tomorrow I reckon, if the reviews are any good that is

 

[Fompous Part]

The allocated time slots were far too short for either man to give properly developed answers. Still, it’s Debating 101 to prepare for the agreed format. Corbyn obviously had prepared for the format, hence his more clipped, economical answers. Johnson obviously had not prepared for the format, hence the 10 billion ‘time’s up’ interruptions made by Julie Etchingham. Not sure that his blustering over the top of her did him any favours.

I thought Corbyn was atrocious on Brexit and not at all convincing on the Union (esp. vis-à-vis Scotland). Currently undecided on what was Johnson’s worst moment, but I’ve narrowed it down to either his claim that the monarchy was “beyond reproach” (72 hours after that Prince Andrew interview) or the guffaws from the audience when he talked about the importance of truth.

I'd just about give it to Johnson on points, but I'm sure my take is heavily skewed by bias. No idea what a floating voter would have made of it.

 

[Millerbri]

I thought Corbyn could have come across better but didn't really do too much damage.
He didn't need to prepare too much because he has definite policies and totally believes in them.

Johnson came across as what he is, a blustering public schoolboy type, who had only one narrative...Brexit, Brexit,Brexit and his wonderful new deal.

Move him off his one comfortable rehearsed subject and he was found totally wanting and tried to bluster back onto his chosen subject.

Corbyn wouldn't talk about whether he wants to leave or stay and quoted the party line.

Johnson wouldn't reply to the reference to his past lies and embarrassing behaviour.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[Lamby]

Jo Swinson

 

[Camborne Gills]

Jo Swinson

You like potential bunny boilers then.