Hillsborough victims unlawfully killed

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

Yep, staggering to read the lies repeated the very next day after a jury unanimously debunked them.

The count was 7 to 2 on that question, that's not unanimous in a court of law pal.

 

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

Christ, that is a painful, ignorant read. And as for your comparison with the Forest fans, had you actually bothered to read up on the facts you'd know that, out of the 83 operational turnstiles on the day, Liverpool fans were designated only 23 of them which caused the bottle neck to occur. Again, down to bad organisation on the day.

Seriously, on emotive subjects like this, either read up on the facts or don't comment.

You've missed my point, almost purposely.

I said do you believe we'd be talking about deaths of Forest fans if they'd have been in that end with only 23 turnstiles open? I don't think we would.

You can't deny Liverpool fans had previous in this era and if the minority had acted like normal rationale human beings and queued and gained entry into the ground in the correct manner, this event wouldn't have happened.

 

[Veggie Legs]

SERNWA (and anyone else who's still questioning the jury's verdict), go and read the David Conn piece that MBR linked on the first page of this thread. It's long but detailed and absolutely worth reading.

 

[Pagnell]

You've missed my point, almost purposely.

I said do you believe we'd be talking about deaths of Forest fans if they'd have been in that end with only 23 turnstiles open? I don't think we would.

You can't deny Liverpool fans had previous in this era and if the minority had acted like normal rationale human beings and queued and gained entry into the ground in the correct manner, this even wouldn't have happened.

I haven't missed your point at all. You're making a ludicrous conjectured comparison that is almost impossible to predict and claiming you believe the outcome would have been different. Under the circumstances at the very least it's in bad taste, at worst damn offensive.

I find it a very sad that, despite a jury finding categorically that no blame should be attributed to Liverpool fans on the day, there are still ignoramuses like you determined to do so whilst either deliberately ignoring the facts or not bothering to educate themselves by reading up on them before commenting.

 

[The Jovial Forester]

The count was 7 to 2 on that question, that's not unanimous in a court of law pal.

No, that was on the unlawful killing verdict.

 

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

I haven't missed your point at all. You're making a ludicrous conjectured comparison that is almost impossible to predict and claiming you believe the outcome would have been different. Under the circumstances at the very least it's in bad taste, at worst damn offensive.

I find it a very sad that, despite a jury finding categorically that no blame should be attributed to Liverpool fans on the day, there are still ignoramuses like you determined to do so whilst either deliberately ignoring the facts or not bothering to educate themselves by reading up on them before commenting.

You're dodging that question because you know very well Forest fans' behaviour at that time would have been far more dignified.

I know there were lots of contributing factors to the events of that day.

What we were told yesterday is that it was literally everybody's fault from the police to Wednesday, the FA and even the company who designed the stand apart from Liverpool fans, bearing in mind it was the amount of them forcing themselves against a turnstile then led Dunkenfield to have to make a decision and that sits right with you?

If their fans behaviour was correct ie waiting to get into the ground in the correct manner there was no decision for Dunkenfield to make. Must be blind to not see that.

 

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

SERNWA (and anyone else who's still questioning the jury's verdict), go and read the David Conn piece that MBR linked on the first page of this thread. It's long but detailed and absolutely worth reading.

I will when I have time, although I still won't see how Liverpool fans wont have to share the blame.

 

[Pagnell]

You're dodging that question because you know very well Forest fans' behaviour at that time would have been far more dignified.

I know there were lots of contributing factors to the events of that day.

What we were told yesterday is that it was literally everybody's fault from the police to Wednesday, the FA and even the company who designed the stand apart from Liverpool fans, bearing in mind it was the amount of them forcing themselves against a turnstile then led Dunkenfield to have to make a decision and that sits right with you?

If their fans behaviour was correct ie waiting to get into the ground in the correct manner there was no decision for Dunkenfield to make. Must be blind to not see that.

Words almost fail me to express how offensive and ignorant you are coming across here. It's almost as if you revel in your complete ignorance of the facts, and are attempting to overcome that with highly offensive, conjectured fan comparisons that are impossible to prove yet you're happy to claim things would have been different.

You're living proof that, no matter what is subsequently proven about Hillsborough, there will always be gullible individuals who believe there has to be truth in the original bullshit.

Go away, I find you repulsive.

 

[johnnytodd]

I imagine some who attended do feel guilty in some way...............but they shouldn't ..........because the amount of things the organizers and most importantly the police got wrong on that day ........undoubtedly caused the disaster.

The cover up by them after the disaster only goes to prove this. The politicians who said it wasn't worth an enquiry should be ashamed of themselves.

I am delighted for the families as they never gave up and it is them that got the truth.

 

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

Words almost fail me to express how offensive and ignorant you are coming across here. It's almost as if you revel in your complete ignorance of the facts, and are attempting to overcome that with highly offensive, conjectured fan comparisons that are impossible to prove yet you're happy to claim things would have been different.

You're living proof that, no matter what is subsequently proven about Hillsborough, there will always be gullible individuals who believe there has to be truth in the original bullshit.

Go away, I find you repulsive.

That's the thing, you can't argue against my points can you and debate? So the bottom lips come out.

The very fact that you can't answer my question on if roles were reversed proves my point, we were told in essence yesterday that would have happened with any set of supporters in the world, but you can't answer my question with a yes, what does that tell you?

You talk about facts, if Liverpool fans didn't force themselves through and over turnstiles and pushed themselves in their thousands against them, Dunkenfield wouldn't have had to make any decision and that's a fact.

 

[The East Terrace]

Spurs fans didn't force their way into the ground in 1981 semi against Wolves yet there were similar problems at the end, luckily and amazingly nobody was killed. The ground was not fit for purpose and Sheffield Council allowed it to open its doors for business as usual. FA ignored it and carried on using it for semi finals. There were crushes at Man Utd semi there in late 70's as well, this is why I said SYP should have been aware of the problems at that end. As for Liverpool fans having previous, in 1989 every clubs fans had previous, this is why is so easy for the cover up to take place. Government covering their own arses and of their pals in Council, FA and SYP, blame it on drunken yobs and the public lapped it up. Leppings Lane end was a disaster waiting to happen for over a decade.

 

[Hibserpool]

That's the thing, you can't argue against my points can you and debate? So the bottom lips come out.

The very fact that you can't answer my question on if roles were reversed proves my point, we were told in essence yesterday that would have happened with any set of supporters in the world, but you can't answer my question with a yes, what does that tell you?

You talk about facts, if Liverpool fans didn't force themselves through and over turnstiles and pushed themselves in their thousands against them, Dunkenfield wouldn't have had to make any decision and that's a fact.

The same thing almost happened when Spurs played Wolves in 1981 and 38 fans were injured in the same stand, some as serious as broken bones. It was very fortunate no one died that day.

Educate yourself on the matter instead of burying your head in the sand.

 

[Pagnell]

That's the thing, you can't argue against my points can you and debate? So the bottom lips come out.

The very fact that you can't answer my question on if roles were reversed proves my point, we were told in essence yesterday that would have happened with any set of supporters in the world, but you can't answer my question with a yes, what does that tell you?

You talk about facts, if Liverpool fans didn't force themselves through and over turnstiles and pushed themselves in their thousands against them, Dunkenfield wouldn't have had to make any decision and that's a fact.

Bottom lip? I think not. You talk about debate but how is it possible to have a debate when you have shown over and over again you are completely ignorant of the facts, and worse still, almost appear to revel in that?

And as a result of that ignorance you haven't made any valid points. All you have done is argue against the findings of the jury by claiming Liverpool fans were at fault, whilst also claiming that Forest fans wouldn't have had the same thing happen to them. And this is despite having zero evidence to support that claim and there being previous examples of similar problems at exactly the same stand with different fans.

As I said earlier, read up on the facts or don't comment.

 

[jacobncfc]

You've missed my point, almost purposely.

I said do you believe we'd be talking about deaths of Forest fans if they'd have been in that end with only 23 turnstiles open? I don't think we would.

You can't deny Liverpool fans had previous in this era and if the minority had acted like normal rationale human beings and queued and gained entry into the ground in the correct manner, this event wouldn't have happened.

Yes, we probably would. Just like it would've been Tottenham Hotspur fans in 1981 or Leeds United fans in 1987 if the police hadn't closed off that tunnel leading to the central part of Leppings Lane.

 

[StevieEvansRedNWhiteArmy]

You mention the spurs game in 81 asif it helps your argument.

Although details don't 100% correlate, the very fact in those instances the fans behaved correctly (in a few peoples words) and it didn't result in deaths, helps my point that Liverpool fans behaviours that day contributed to deaths.

There's examples of Liverpool fans behaviours resulting in crushes historically aswell, but that's another can of worms never to be opened as it goes against the idea Liverpool fans are angels.

 

[mowgli]

You mention the spurs game in 81 asif it helps your argument.

Although details don't 100% correlate, the very fact in those instances the fans behaved correctly (in a few peoples words) and it didn't result in deaths, helps my point that Liverpool fans behaviours that day contributed to deaths.

There's examples of Liverpool fans behaviours resulting in crushes historically aswell, but that's another can of worms never to be opened as it goes against the idea Liverpool fans are angels.

What utter bollocks!

 

[jacobncfc]

Although details don't 100% correlate, the very fact in those instances the fans behaved correctly (in a few peoples words) and it didn't result in deaths, helps my point that Liverpool fans behaviours that day contributed to deaths.
.

There's no suggestion that Spurs or Leeds fans behaved any differently. The police behaved differently.

 

[The East Terrace]

Pure luck is how nobody was killed before. Look at the video clips on Youtube of 81 semi final, the overcrowding and crushing are exactly the same, fans spilling out onto the pitch. Sheffield Council, SYP and SWFC knew about this and just ignored it.

 

[smat]

Mr Duckenfield said that, in the pressure of the day, he froze and did not consider the consequences of his actions.

"I think it's fair to say that it is arguably one of the biggest regrets of my life, that I did not foresee where fans would go when they came in through the gates," he said.

He also admitted to a "terrible lie". "Everybody knew the truth, the fans and police knew the truth that we'd opened the gates," he said.

The former chief superintendent said he "deeply regretted" not telling then-FA chief executive Graham Kelly that it was his decision that caused the fatal crush saying he would regret the lie "to his dying day".

What more does anyone need?

 

[The East Terrace]

While I certainly have no sympathy for SYP, they were put into a position of Policing something in an unsafe environment. I read that SWFC hadn't had a safety certificate in 8 years?
SYP like any Police force at the time treated fans as yobs. We were pushed, shoved and ignored on account that they saw all of us as nothing more than drunken scum infected with the "English Disease". It is that mentality that led to their initial reaction to the situation and by the time they did realise that those were actually just people in the crush and not rioting yobs it was too late. There will always be some who hang onto the original lies, let them, if it makes them feel in some way superior, let them live in ignorance. Finally, 27 years on, the lies peddled and believed are coming apart and the true cause of that horrendus day are coming to light.

 

[Gashead]

The cover up is is indefensible.

My heart does go out to the 96 who died, they were there nice and early and simply looking forward to an FA cup Semi final. Heartbreaking.

I've been thinking about it the over the last day and no one can defend SYP in their actions after the disaster but I do have a degree of sympathy for those involved, Duckenfield didn't wake up that morning and decide he want to to cause the deaths of nearly 100 Liverpool fans.

Come on man, it wasn't that Duckenfield did anything intentionally, but it was serious neglect of his duties!! That's why it was wrong.

He didn't prepare for the game properly as the main bloke in charge of safety. He didn't even visit the ground before the game!! His predecessor knew all about the Leppings Lane turnstiles, all the safety details etc. and I'm certain would have sent fans away from the central pens or had a back-up plan for those outside at least. If Duckenfield had been prepared, I'm sure that's what he would have done too.

 

[johnnytodd]

SYP need to be brought to book, they have now serious questions to answer in relations to this, the miners strike and Rortherham to name just 3.

 

[silkyman]

Pure luck is how nobody was killed before. Look at the video clips on Youtube of 81 semi final, the overcrowding and crushing are exactly the same, fans spilling out onto the pitch. Sheffield Council, SYP and SWFC knew about this and just ignored it.

I've just been watching about that on the BBC website, and also the information that SWFC were told they should make improvements, but just didn't because of the cost. On a City forum I read, a few lads were talking about a game there where lads were being lifted off their feet and couldn't move due to the pressure. There were clearly so many warning signs that were ignored. The FA should take critisicm for hosting games there, as should SWFC for not making the changes that they should have made. The FA accepted that it WAS a problem, enough to drop it as a venue for six years, but then just went back there.

It was a litany of fuckups at an unsuitable venue

They didn't open enough turnstyles on the day leading to the bottleneck in the first place because they wanted to keep the two sets of fans apart, but had something like 170 fewer coppers on duty, who could easily have helped shepherd the crowds. They didn't bother with an external cordon (as they had had the previous year). They ignored SWFC's usual policy of closing pens when they were full and then opened a gate to funnel more people into it.

 

[johnnytodd]

All grounds were shite them days, you never ended up standing where you started the match.

 

[The Fury]

I’m a long time former member of TFF who occasionally reads this forum. I am neither a Liverpool supporter nor a Scouser. I viewed this thread today hoping to be moved by a sense of solidarity. Perhaps naively, I assumed all football supporters would be united by the verdict yesterday. Especially, the astonishing relief of question 6 in righting the wrongs of the initial inquest, and the unanimous assertions of question 7 recognising the apportioning of blame for Hillsborough on Liverpool supporters – tantamount to suggesting they unlawfully killed each other – has, always, tarnished all football supporters as a collective. Because we are a community, a community demonised throughout the 1980s, from the very top, as part of a wider campaign of denigration of the working class. Hillsborough and the response to it was always a manifestation of this. To my mind, Liverpool supporters and the Hillsborough families have never walked alone in the pursuit of justice in this matter.

Sadly, I feel compelled to register to dispel some of the sheer ignorance I have encountered in this thread. I implore anyone that if they wish to have an opinion on this matter (on anything, in fact) then basic due diligence ought to be undertaken. An understanding of historical context, chronology, myth, evidence – both available and for a long time concealed - and past proceedings is necessary. It is plain to me that one contributor to this thread has done so little of this it borders on negligence. It is a level of spectacular ignorance that ought not to be so brazenly spouted in public discussion. By all means, pedal such ignorance in your living room. But not publicly.

May I express further admiration to Pagnell for not engaging. It is something I simply could not resist, mate.

First, let’s think about historical context. You display at least a modicum of awareness in knowing that there was a disaster at Heysel. The aftermath of the disaster, of course, led to manslaughter convictions for 14 Liverpool fans (with one subsequently overturned), condemnation of UEFA for allowing the event to occur at a dilapidated old stadium not fit for purpose, the head of the Belgian FA for selling tickets in the Liverpool end to Juventus supporters, and two police chiefs for inadequate planning and responding to events. It is rightly a stain upon English football and Liverpool Football Club. But justice has long been served in respect of Heysel.

Yet you have unashamedly used Heysel as some sort of evidence that there was something intrinsically criminous about Liverpool supporters. You even, utterly disingenuously, argue that if Nottingham Forest supporters were allocated Leppings Lane on the day of the disaster then it would not have occurred.

This commits a most grievous error of historical ignorance. It assumes that Liverpool had a particularly bad reputation for football hooliganism and that Heysel was somehow unique. In fact, in the 70s and 80s, murders occurred at games between Bolton v Blackpool, Arsenal v West Ham, Birmingham v Leeds to name a few that spring to mind immediately. Both Leeds and Manchester United had been banned from Europe for their hooliganism and there was widespread violence and lengthy prison terms served in instances of rioting at games far too numerous to cite. There was also the very real connection between right-wing groups such as the National Front systematically infiltrating hooligan groups, spreading racism and fascism which enhanced the culture of violence. The upshot was that crowd segregation and the construction of cages were enforced and the Thatcher government eventually convened a special committee on the issue. One outcome was to ban the sale of alcohol. But this didn’t get to the nub of the matter – alcohol was not a contributing factor in Heysel, Birmingham v Leeds or, of course, the Bradford fire, all of which informed the committee’s rulings. It made a grave error, in assuming alcoholic consumption was a cause of both violence and tragedy at football matches. Empirically, it was connected to neither. And it is a myth that persisted in respect of Hillsborough.

Fresh from her persecution of the miners – look up Orgreave for another instance of cover-ups from our friends at South Yorkshire Police – an orchestrated campaign to target football supporters – was instituted by Thatcher. This is not historical interpretation. This is fact. Football supporters are described in official documents as animals and beasts. Such terminology is key; it is the language of dehumanisation. Once you have relegated a human being to animal level, any level of persecution can be committed. It is a mandate for murder.

And it was ordinary football fans that suffered for this. The Thatcher government wanted to impose ID cards that all football fans had to carry, in a severe restriction of civil liberties. Historically, we know what happens when a group of people are singled out and targeted. It never ends well.

The ending at Hillsborough was framed and informed by all of the above. Specifically, the response of the police, where a crush was considered a riot, where pens were not opened and fans were beaten back. Go and read the witness statements from officers on the ground – this is fact. The unequivocal result of the Independent Panel and now the Inquest in this matter makes it clear that lives were lost because of this error in response. Which in turn was informed by top-down attitudes to football fans. But hooliganism was widespread – events at Leppings Lane do not belong to Liverpool solely, and that’s because it could have been any other set of supporters. Including, obviously, Nottingham Forest.

And so let’s talk about that day and address some myth and chronology. First, this idea of ticketless and drunken fans turning up late and storming the Leppings Lane turnstiles. It has proven to be utterly wrong. Liverpool’s allocation was a total of 24,256 – the Leppings Lane terrace could hold 10,100 and it was accessed through 7 turnstiles. All 24k Liverpool supporters had to use 23 turnstiles located just off Leppings Lane, all in one area: a natural bottleneck. Nottingham Forest were allocated less tickets but, utterly wrongly and tragically, much more room to access their areas of the ground. Hillsborough had problems in 1980 where there was a crush at the Leppings Lane End in the FA Cup Semi-Final. The layout at the end of the ground was changed and the safety certificate never reviewed. Eventually, the invalid certificate lapsed. There were further crushes in the FA Cup semis in 1987 and 1988. A disaster at Hillsborough was inevitable.

On the day, there were roadworks on the M62 which connects Liverpool to Sheffield. This held up travelling supporters and undoubtedly, given the layout of Leppings Lane contributed to events. But it was avoidable – and the fault of the FA and the Police. Liverpool FC had asked the FA to consider allocating Liverpool fans the other side of the stadium. On advice from South Yorkshire Police, the FA rejected it.

Watch the CCTV footage. The bottleneck at the Leppings Lane entrances meant that substantial queues already formed at 2pm. An hour before kickoff!!! I’ve been to Premier League games this season turning up 20 minutes prior to kick off! In the confusion, some fans presented tickets at the wrong turnstiles and the arrival of supporters resulted in congestion. In the CCTV footage you quickly begin to see revelry turning to fear. By 2:40pm the queue outside became dangerous. It was a crush. It was not drunken fans demanding entrance. The crush was a mathematically inevitability based on numbers and space. Alcohol consumption does not fit into this equation. And, indeed, the ‘evidence’ collected by South Yorkshire Police after the match – photographs taken outside the ground and of bins in the vicinity – designed to show excessive alcohol consumption – showed no abnormal alcohol consumption. Looking at the photos, in fact, I see more cans of Coca-Cola than I do anything else.

Inside the ground, pens 3 & 4 immediately behind the goal were already packed. Pens 1 & 2 either side were relatively empty. Duckenfield received a request that kickoff be delayed. Duckenfield had been a controversial appointment weeks ahead of the match. He hadn’t controlled a football game of this scale, had not undertaken a review of Hillsborough prior to the match and was unsure of even the most rudimentary layout of the ground. At the Inquest he admitted he should not have been given the match and made fatal errors. He admitted responsibility. Duckenfield did order Gate C to be opened. Directly opposite the Gate C entrance was the tunnel leading to pens 3 & 4. But the tunnel gates towards the two main pens were not closed. Straight in front of them, the fans headed for the tunnel. Recognising the magnitude of his error, Duckenfield – when pressed by the secretary of the FA whilst still in the control room – said that ticketless, drunken Liverpool fans had stormed a turnstile. The storming of course could be refuted by CCTV and eyewitness accounts, and was that evening. The drunkenness and the ticketless allegations, however, were constructed into a narrative. One that good people, fellow football fans who should know better still insist on pedalling.

After yesterday, I choose to no longer solemnly remember the injustices around Hillsborough but celebrate the astonishing commitment of the human spirit, shown first that day by supporters, junior police officers and paramedics trying to help people survive and give dignity to the dead, and then by the Families who have until now been denied justice at every level by a corrupt system.

 

[Womble98]

There would be far more crushes at football grounds if the stadiums weren't well designed and if policing and stewarding was done as poorly as it was there. That is the key thing: if the police had acted properly, and if the stadium had been designed properly, there would not have been deaths that day.

It is also worth thinking about the way a crush work, this is from someone who has done a lot of research into crushes and stampedes:

Here's the kicker: in both of these scenarios the death tolls are so high because the people in the back of the crowd, propagating the crowd force, are almost always too far away to know what's going on at the crush point. These sorts of crowds are extremely noisy and essentially impossible to stick your head up and over to get a better view, this combined with the fact that the back of crowds are usually at safe densities and people have no reason to panic and just keep walking means that the people at the front have no choice but to be crushed. Or in the case of a fire, where people sometimes are aware of what's happening in the front, they will simply keep pushing because it's either that or wait to die, worsening the crush at the front. Hundreds upon hundreds of people can be screaming for help and for people to stop or turn back... the ones who can hear them are already too stuck in the flow to do anything, and the ones who can do something can't hear.

You can read more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/...bia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm
One of the main arguments with regards to Liverpool fans acting badly is that they knew there was a crush and kept pushing, it is an argument I used to buy. This disproves it.

 

[The East Terrace]

Sadly, we all believed the ticketless fans arguement for too long. I never bought into the The Sun's nonesence, everyone knew that was just them selling copy and being scumbags as ever. Despite attending football matches up and down the country in the years leading up to this disaster and witnessing and experiencing how dangerous overcrowded terraces, entry and exits into footbal ground were, I still believed them. Thought Teresa May summed it well in saying something along the lines of the people we trusted to keep us safe and have lied to cover their own mistakes and destroyed peoples lives and memories. Think of all the senior police officers who knew about the cover up, the councillors in Sheffield all of whom will have retired on full pensions, knowing all the mistakes and ignorence that caused 96 people to be killed. It beggers belief and I just wonder how high up into Government this will go. Thatcher was at war with football hooligans, sadly us normal fans got caught up in that war as the Police up and down the country were allowed free reign over fans. Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown ignored it and Cameron only acted once there was nowhere left to hide. Why were all of these PM's and their Governments so desperate to keep all this a secret? The whole thing stinks of Old Boys network and funny handshakes to be honest. I'm glad the the Police officers on the ground and the Paramedics are not caught up in the blame, they did their best but ultimately had to follow orders and that is where the blame lies.

 

[Pagnell]

And the revolting old scrote is still refusing to make any apology for his comments at the time. Thatcher would be proud.

 

[shane]

I've had a crush on James O'Brien for a while now.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

that's class. worst part about this all is how the sun is still number one paper for football fans. despite them utterly despising them. i feel a bit of revulsion for people who buy the paper, feeding such a despicable rag, but as we've seen in this thread they've managed to muddy the waters to a degree. the people who buy into this propaganda aren't bad people, just a bit dim. i think the boycott is an incredible thing and reflects well on the city of liverpool, just a shame other communities aren't as politically acute