Hypothetical question

[Stevencc]

Can you at least blink?

Only if I try really hard!

 

[SALTIRE]

Salty, I just saw in this thread: https://www.onefootballforum.co.uk/...-i-just-bought-this.10594/page-20#post-648509 , that you were shopping Whisky again, so I can only assume that you already "had a few" when you posted this

Dirk's bunch? You mean "Angles" and "Saxons"? Nah, Steven is more the Norman. He likes the french league and even watched the french super cup this weekend. No one of our "bunch" would do that

btw: Now I have this pic in my head "You in your kilt with your bagpipe playing Scotland the Brave and watching Highlander, Rob Roy and Braveheart. Or a documentary of Bannockburn and maybe even Culloden " and drinking a few ....

Whilst eatin' haggis, don't forget the haggis; and in my string vest (genuinely)

 

[G.B]

 

[SALTIRE]

A hero that fella.

 

[St. Juste]

I've met Craig Gordon actually. He was drunk at the time. As he was for the majority of his stay in the North East.

The Premiership as you call it doesn't exist. The top tier of English football is called the Premier League. A rather amusing exposure of your complete ignorance, there.

I've been to Glasgow. I cried the whole time.

So you have absolutely no evidence he was an alcoholic, that was to be expected.

At least he got voted as having the best save in Premier League history.

Yes, you seem to cry quite a lot.

To show that Sinclair has a similar (if not worse) PL pedigree to Jack Rodwell. That he's Celtic's best player speaks volumes.

Brendan should seriously consider signing Rodwell. He'd absolutely run the show in that penniless pub league.

I'm really not sure he would, even St. Johnstone beat Sunderland in a recent pre season friendly (where Rodwell was playing).

How many SPFL games have you seen?

Obviously they could attract better players like Micah Richards and Jack Rodwell. Maybe someone like Darren Fletcher at a stretch.

To be fair I doubt Celtic fans will want to move as they won't ever see the champions league again if they did.

Celtic, or Rangers, in the Premier League would be able to attract the calibre of player similar to any non London Premier League team.

Some would want to move, some wouldn't, but they never will.

Gretna did. And Annan Athletic. Giants of the game. Currently none, but that's not really relevant.
And apparently Tweedmouth Rangers are an English team plying their trade in the Scottish 6th tier. I wiki'd that.

I was only aware of those two teams playing in Scotland.

I would say it is quite relevant, Scotland has a distinct national and footballing identity - Wales did not. Hence Welsh players defying the WFA to play for that horrendous Olympics experiment.

Celtic would stay up in the Premier League. Not by much, but I think they would.

Aberdeen might just be able to hold their own in the Championship.

Everyone else is utter cack and belongs in L2/NL.

Again, how many times have you seen an SPFL match?

Aberdeen are better than other teams to the league, but clearly not to the extent they'd be two or divisions above

 

[JoshBCFC]

So you have absolutely no evidence he was an alcoholic, that was to be expected.

I'm really not sure he would, even St. Johnstone beat Sunderland in a recent pre season friendly (where Rodwell was playing).

How many SPFL games have you seen?

Pre-season friendlies mean fuck all.

 

[St. Juste]

Pre-season friendlies mean fuck all.

If you have an alternative measure I'd like to hear it.

 

[epic73]

Pre-season friendlies mean fuck all.

And Sunderland aren't even a Premier League team.

 

[JoshBCFC]

If you have an alternative measure I'd like to hear it.

Well, pre-season friendlies is probably the best measure, but it's still not a very good one. For example, we drew against Portsmouth last year in a pre-season friendly. That doesn't mean Portsmouth were as good as we were. Just because St Johnstone beat Sunderland 5-0 in a friendly doesn't mean they would if they were playing the championship.

 

[Stevencc]

If a Glaswegian beat an Englishman in the final of a "Glaswegian accent contest" St. Juste would claim it to be the greatest victory and upset in the history of organised competition.

 

[St. Juste]

And Sunderland aren't even a Premier League team.

Startling insight.

Well, pre-season friendlies is probably the best measure, but it's still not a very good one. For example, we drew against Portsmouth last year in a pre-season friendly. That doesn't mean Portsmouth were as good as we were. Just because St Johnstone beat Sunderland 5-0 in a friendly doesn't mean they would if they were playing the championship.

I'm in 100% agreement, it's not a good measure at all. St. Johnstone won't be as good a side as Sunderland (surely....) given the huge disparity in budgets. St. Johnstone will be roughly commiserate with an equivalent English team from a budget perspective - probably slightly above due to the SPFL having greater appeal / exposure for players than, say, League Two, and the prospect of European football.

Which is the logical answer to this hypothetical question. Celtic and Rangers would be able to do significantly more with a larger budget, whether they will flounder it (a la Newcastle) or build on it (like Spurs) is hard to predict and will depend entirely on how they run.

If a Glaswegian beat an Englishman in the final of a "Glaswegian accent contest" St. Juste would claim it to be the greatest victory and upset in the history of organised competition.

Congratulations, the most ludicrous post on a thread full of them.

 

[Nilsson]

I'm really not sure he would, even St. Johnstone beat Sunderland in a recent pre season friendly (where Rodwell was playing).

How many SPFL games have you seen?

I can see you're struggling so I'll use bullet points for you.

• You said "Scott Sinclair did well enough with Swansea (in the Premier League) to get signed by Man City" --- Well Jack Rodwell did well enough with Everton (in the Premier League) to get signed by Man City in the same transfer window as Sinclair and has had an almost identical PL career as him
• You went on to ask "Is is not possible he is recapturing form earlier in his career?" --- Well is it not possible that Jack Rodwell would "recapture form earlier in his career" if he too moved to Scotland?
• A player as shit as Scott Sinclair being Celtic's star player doesn't look good. What are you trying to suggest, that Scottish football is in such a good place?

ps. A little tip, pre-season matches are basically training sessions, I wouldn't read too much into them if I were you.

 

[St. Juste]

I can see you're struggling so I'll use bullet points for you.

• You said "Scott Sinclair did well enough with Swansea (in the Premier League) to get signed by Man City" --- Well Jack Rodwell did well enough with Everton (in the Premier League) to get signed by Man City in the same transfer window as Sinclair and has had an almost identical PL career as him
• You went on to ask "Is is not possible he is recapturing form earlier in his career?" --- Well is it not possible that Jack Rodwell would "recapture form earlier in his career" if he too moved to Scotland?
• A player as shit as Scott Sinclair being Celtic's star player doesn't look good. What are you trying to suggest, that Scottish football is in such a good place?

ps. A little tip, pre-season matches are basically training sessions, I wouldn't read too much into them if I were you.

• Er, righto then.
• It is entirely possible Jack Rodwell would recapture form earlier in his career, assuming he actually had form. Not sure his contributions to Everton match those of Sinclair to Swansea. But, anyway, any player could recapture form, it's a pretty meaningless statement.
• In such a good place, relative to what? The current Celtic side are probably the best they have been in at least 5 years (probably longer). It's the best Aberdeen side in 20 years, again probably longer. Some teams are doing better, some are doing far worse (i.e. Rangers). Attendances continue to be exceptional, amongst the very highest in the world on a proportional basis. The coefficient has gone up and down, probably around about where you would expect Scotland to be but lacking the overachievement we have had in the past.

In more general terms, it's quite clear for the available empirical data that football continues to be concentrated in the wealthiest leagues in the largest nations - the 'Big 5' in Europe. This has a manifest effect on all other nations, Scotland to a certain extent yes, but nothing like the dip that has been seen in Brazil or the Netherlands. Every league, bar the big 5, is an export league. Some are buffeted by an inflated domestic TV deal (e.g. Norway) which unfortunately Scotland does not have.It's a new reality, and there's nothing Scotland or any other league can do to change it. It has predominantly affected the largest clubs here, on the whole most clubs are no better or worse than they have been before. What the majority of fans do not miss is the profligate spending of the early 00s.

So, yeah, in general things are pretty good.

 

[Nilsson]

So, yeah, in general things are pretty good.

Imagine how good things would be if we sent one of our decent footballers up there. Scott Sinclair? Wait until you've seen Michail Antonio, he'd probably get 40+ goals.

 

[G.B]

If a Glaswegian beat an Englishman in the final of a "Glaswegian accent contest" St. Juste would claim it to be the greatest victory and upset in the history of organised competition.

something something population

 

[St. Juste]

Imagine how good things would be if we sent one of our decent footballers up there. Scott Sinclair? Wait until you've seen Michail Antonio, he'd probably get 40+ goals.

You think Michail Antonio is a better player than Henrik Larsson?

How to explain Man City drawing twice with Celtic in two games last season? They should won 10-0, right....

 

[Nilsson]

You think Michail Antonio is a better player than Henrik Larsson?

How to explain Man City drawing twice with Celtic in two games last season? They should won 10-0, right....

Bringing up Henrik Larsson would be a good point if we were having this conversation 15 years ago.

And lower league sides regularly cause upsets. Bradford beat Chelsea at SB not so long ago, Huddersfield's second string drew with Man City last season, hell, even my beloved Manchester United once lost to Southend.

 

[JimJams]

Doesn't referencing players whose glory days have long since past just back up peoples perception that the SPL is weak?
Are Celtic as good now as they were when the Swede was in their team?

 

[Liverlad]

Would love them to join our none league with the hope of climbing up the ladder, then the English do something sneaky like scrap promotion just to piss off the scotts and watch them cry for a second vote.

 

[Jockney]

Celtic would do well. Midtable-ish, and imagine Parkhead would be something of a fortress. They'd be competing for Europe within a few seasons.

 

[St. Juste]

Bringing up Henrik Larsson would be a good point if we were having this conversation 15 years ago.

And lower league sides regularly cause upsets. Bradford beat Chelsea at SB not so long ago, Huddersfield's second string drew with Man City last season, hell, even my beloved Manchester United once lost to Southend.

Well, not really, I've actually seen the league during this time period and whilst Celtic might be weaker, the rest of the league certainly isn't. Aberdeen are a far better team now than they were then.

But twice, in one season, in their only game against English opposition? As I said, the statements you are making are explicitly against the available evidence.

Even if the point you are making, quite clumsily, was correct that rubbish Premier League players would do great in the SPFL - why would it matter? Who would care? The gap between the two leagues is not up for debate. It's not surprising that you addressed none of the points regarding the top 5 leagues pulling away, it's happening to everyone. It's really not much of a concern for me or anyone else in Scottish football. Our proportional attendances are still fantastic, and most clubs are pretty much as good as they have been in the past. Do you really think people care, or are jealous of the fact, that Troy Deeney is paid £100k a week?

Doesn't referencing players whose glory days have long since past just back up peoples perception that the SPL is weak?
Are Celtic as good now as they were when the Swede was in their team?

The SPL hasn't existed for years.

And if that is what you took from my post, then the "perception" the SPFL is weak is not something I or anyone else could change - it exists in your head and is not tied at all to the evidence. Weak compared to what? Do you ever even watch it?

Celtic aren't, no. They are currently the best they've been in, I'd say, 8-10 years. But that's only part of the story, teams like Partick Thistle, Ross County, Inverness, St. Johnstone, Motherwell have been far better in the past 10 years than most of the preceding century.

Would love them to join our none league with the hope of climbing up the ladder, then the English do something sneaky like scrap promotion just to piss off the scotts and watch them cry for a second vote.

The levels of ignorance demonstrated by some people never cease to amaze me.

 

[JimJams]

Your skills of interpretation are terrible.
People are talking about how players could go into Scottish football and score 40 goals and you reference Larsson. Larsson doesn't play in Scotland now so his goalscoring feats are a complete irrelevance to the subject of the current state of Scottish football. That you choose to bring up a player who hadn't played in Scotland for 13 years speaks volumes.
And again (sigh) you either don't read or comprehend what is said in my post. Like it or not public perception is that the league is weak, both compared to other European leagues and compared to it's own status in the past. So it's not MY perception, it's THE perception. Just because you'd like to ignore that and talk about punching above your weight doesn't take away from that, it actually just backs up the second point about being weaker than it was, which again, is what your post highlights.
If somebody makes claim that somebody would walk into and piss on your league, then referencing a player who played in that league a decade and a half ago, when the league was better does nothing to prove them wrong.
Surely you reference a player FROM THE PRESENT DAY and compare the two, with the point being about the CURRENT quality of football in Scotland. Bringing up the best player to play in Scotland in the last 20 years or so for comparison is desperation. Which is the point. Which you seem to have spectacularly missed.
How much Scottish football I watch personally has nothing to do with the point at hand in the post. That you can't actually see that is a little more concerning. You engage in debate with everybody yet it seems that you don't even read what you're debating.

Onto the next point, are all those teams doing better purely because Rangers haven't been in the mix? 5 years of one of the big 2 out of the way, some were bound to get better amongst that division weren't they?

 

[Bilo]

WHY ARE PEOPLE ARGUING WITH ST JUSTE

Here's how it works (no exceptions):

Someone says something, either directly aimed at him or just enough for him to disagree.
He interprets what has been said in the least favorable way possible.
He goes on to criticize his own interpretation.
The original someone either has to defend a stance not originally taken, or criticize the interpretation in which case the discussion moves away from the original point.

This is schoolbook for destructive arguing and it's designed for arguments to not lead anywhere.

 

[St. Juste]

Your skills of interpretation are terrible.
People are talking about how players could go into Scottish football and score 40 goals and you reference Larsson. Larsson doesn't play in Scotland now so his goalscoring feats are a complete irrelevance to the subject of the current state of Scottish football. That you choose to bring up a player who hadn't played in Scotland for 13 years speaks volumes.

And again (sigh) you either don't read or comprehend what is said in my post. Like it or not public perception is that the league is weak, both compared to other European leagues and compared to it's own status in the past. So it's not MY perception, it's THE perception. Just because you'd like to ignore that and talk about punching above your weight doesn't take away from that, it actually just backs up the second point about being weaker than it was, which again, is what your post highlights.
If somebody makes claim that somebody would walk into and piss on your league, then referencing a player who played in that league a decade and a half ago, when the league was better does nothing to prove them wrong.

Onto the next point, are all those teams doing better purely because Rangers haven't been in the mix? 5 years of one of the big 2 out of the way, some were all bound to get better amongst that division weren't they?

Having seen the quality of the league during this time period I'm aware it has not changed that much. However, maybe I was wrong in reasoning with the "Antonio would score 40 goals in the Premier League" maybe I should have just ignored it as the nonsense it clearly is. Even if accurate, which it isn't, it would be a moot and meaningless point.

Is this the public perception? From where? The EPL fans have always considered the league to be "weak" and always will, regardless of the reality. As for the self perception in Scotland, absolutely, this has also always been the case. Have a look at the papers from 1967, shortly after Celtic won the European Cup, Scottish football was "dying" because they lost a pre season friendly. You couldn't make it up. This is a wider Scottish phenonmenon I have written about extensively. As for how it is perceived in Europe, who knows or cares? It probably isn't perceived at all, I have no strong views on the Finnish or Romanian leagues.

However, the perception does not match the reality of the situation. Scottish football, certain clubs specifically, went through a brief period of spending well beyond their means in the late 90s / early 2000s. It wasn't even a particularly successful spell in Scottish football and led to bankruptcies and liquidations. It is not something anyone looks back on with any fondness, I'm very glad we are not living within our means. Another fact that is undeniable is the strength of our proportional attendances, which are excellent. Our performance in European competition over the past 20 years has been good, over the past 5 not so much but generally slightly above what you would expect from a nation of 5 million people in Europe. If you're forming a warped perception of a league you haven't seen, and not based on the available facts, there's clearly nothing I or anyone else can do to change that. You either form your opinions based on the available evidence, or you don't.

With regards to your final point - not at all, most of them have been doing well whilst Rangers were there, whilst they were gone, and now that they have returned. The only one you would have a slight case with would be Aberdeen who have cemented their place as the second best team in the country, but they could well have done that with Rangers in the league (they did last year).

WHY ARE PEOPLE ARGUING WITH ST JUSTE

Here's how it works (no exceptions):

Someone says something, either directly aimed at him or just enough for him to disagree.
He interprets what has been said in the least favorable way possible.
He goes on to criticize his own interpretation.
The original someone either has to defend a stance not originally taken, or criticize the interpretation in which case the discussion moves away from the original point.

This is schoolbook for destructive arguing and it's designed for arguments to not lead anywhere.

Quite the contrary, I'm taking a very fair interpretation of many of these posts - most people are saying Scottish football is rubbish, admitting they don't watch it, and claiming that full backs will score 40+ goals in the league.

Nobody has addressed any of the points surrounding the top 5 leagues pulling away from the rest.

Nobody has provided any evidence of the supposedly declining quality of Scottish football.

Nobody has given any reasoning why Celtic could supposedly get no points again any team in the league (besides Rangers) even though they drew twice with Man City in their only two games against English opposition.

Instead we are hearing how it is "perceived" in England - badly obviously. But then so is every other league on earth, "could Messi do it in Stoke?". Mocking ignorance is quite a common theme.

I do wonder why Wanyama and VVD didn't score 40+ goals between them...

 

[Bilo]

full backs will score 40+ goals in the league.

"could Messi do it in Stoke?"

Knowing full well I'm breaking my own rule here: quoting obvious jokes as serious statements (then claiming they, in turn, are representative for the line of arguing as a whole) is exactly what anyone but you would define as least favorable interpretation.

 

[epic73]

Nobody has provided any evidence of the supposedly declining quality of Scottish football.

Nobody's provided any evidence that it's improving or even good.

 

[JimJams]

http://www.thesportster.com/soccer/top-15-worst-professional-soccer-leagues-in-the-world/
American perception.
I'm not gonna trawl through foreign sites for their views. Language barriers and all that.

 

[St. Juste]

Nobody's provided any evidence that it's improving or even good.

What kind of evidence do you want?

http://www.thesportster.com/soccer/top-15-worst-professional-soccer-leagues-in-the-world/
American perception.
I'm not gonna trawl through foreign sites for their views. Language barriers and all that.

Well, it's good you are addressing one part of my post - and your evidence is one news sight.

And even that isn't even criticising the league, it is just saying the majority of league titles have been won by Rangers or Celtic. That is literally it's only criticism. It could be equally applied to La Liga.

Also I did notice this ludicrous statement:

"Sharing 3rd place are Heart of Midlothian, Aberdeen and Hibernian, who each have a whopping 4 cups"

What on earth is he on about? This isn't even remotely accurate.

Knowing full well I'm breaking my own rule here: quoting obvious jokes as serious statements (then claiming they, in turn, are representative for the line of arguing as a whole) is exactly what anyone but you would define as least favorable interpretation.

Do you think English football fans have a balanced perception of other leagues?

Are you not aware Antonio has spent part of his time at West Ham as a full back?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

I watched Scottish Cup semi final back in April, Hibs v Aberdeen. Belting game, 5 goals, end to end frantic stuff at times. Brilliant entertainment no question. But it was like watching kids football, constantly strewn with basic errors of control, simple passes going all over the shop, inexplicable defensive errors. Coming from a Bournemouth fan more used to lower league football who's seen enough crap football and comical defending down the years to last a lifetime - it was a poor standard.

Yes it was one game, and the only 90 minutes of Scottish football I've sat down and closely watched in the last year or two, so a poor sample. But that is Celtic's bread and butter currently, as two of the bigger clubs they face.

Celtic currently have to deal with this contrast in playing domestic football where of course they make mince meat of it, versus Champions League football. Which in of itself can vary quite a lot at group stage level between the big guns and the smaller clubs. I can't imagine this contrast in standard is easy for their squad.

As a random antidote aside, I remember how excited as a Bournemouth fan I was in 2007 when Paul Telfer signed, fresh from Champions League quarter final exploits with Celtic, the culmination of a few solid years Telfer enjoyed up there. It turned out, Telfer was embarrassingly bad in League One. It was a huge disappointment. We mutually agreed to release him after a few months of hopelessly struggling at full back against jobbing third tier wingers. It was hard to fathom how he was performing in the knockout stages of the Champions League not months previous.

 

[St. Juste]

I watched Scottish Cup semi final back in April, Hibs v Aberdeen. Belting game, 5 goals, end to end frantic stuff at times. Brilliant entertainment no question. But it was like watching kids football, constantly strewn with basic errors of control, simple passes going all over the shop, inexplicable defensive errors. Coming from a Bournemouth fan more used to lower league football who's seen enough crap football and comical defending down the years to last a lifetime - it was a poor standard.

Yes it was one game, and the only 90 minutes of Scottish football I've sat down and closely watched in the last year or two, so a poor sample. But that is Celtic's bread and butter currently, as two of the bigger clubs they face.

Celtic currently have to deal with this contrast in playing domestic football where of course they make mince meat of it, versus Champions League football. Which in of itself can vary quite a lot at group stage level between the big guns and the smaller clubs. I can't imagine this contrast in standard is easy for their squad.

As a random antidote aside, I remember how excited as a Bournemouth fan I was in 2007 when Paul Telfer signed, fresh from Champions League quarter final exploits with Celtic, the culmination of a few solid years Telfer enjoyed up there. It turned out, Telfer was embarrassingly bad in League One. It was a huge disappointment. We mutually agreed to release him after a few months of hopelessly struggling at full back against jobbing third tier wingers. It was hard to fathom how he was performing in the knockout stages of the Champions League not months previous.

One game certainly isn't a big enough sample - there are poor quality games strewn throughout various different leagues.

Also, Telfer spend the overwhelming majority of his career in England. He spent 24 seasons in England and 2 in Scotland. So is an odd choice to bring up. Players such as these exist in many different guises, it's usually not totally relevant. Andy Webster was playing regularly at League One level before coming to St. Mirren and being our worst player in the Championship. Daryl Murphy was abysmal in Scotland before scoring plenty in the Championship. Gordon Greer failed at Kilmarnock before captaining a promotion chasing Championship side. Aaron Mooy failed at St. Mirren and was recently Huddersfields record signing in the Premier League.

There are so many factors at play, how X player does in Y country isn't usually particularly relevant, consistent or helpful.