Is the UK anti-semitic?

[Pliny Harris]

Wait, Galloway was refusing to backtrack whatsoever on his claim that Bratfud was an "Israeli-free zone." He refuses to talk alongside anyone with Israel citizenship. That goes beyond any problems we might rightly have with Israel and in fact persecutes people for their nationality. If you're not allowed to "cry [insert word for a bigot" at that, what can you legitimately "cry [insert word for a bigot" at?

 

[mnb089mnb]

You misunderstand. My point is not that we don't talk about these issues, my point is that we can't talk about them sensibly without one side screaming xenophobia as if that is some sort of counter-argument. As if the best way to resolve our issues is to characterize one side as racists so that they shut up and we don't have to listen to them. It's a tactic that is wearing thin.

No, I don't misunderstand I think I know exactly where you're coming from.

But what do you do if someone is being racist or xenophobic?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

But what do you do if someone is being racist or xenophobic?

Explain to them why their position is irrational.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Explain to them why their position is irrational.

Most people aren't robots. They have visceral and emotional reactions to events.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Wait, Galloway was refusing to backtrack whatsoever on his claim that Bratfud was an "Israeli-free zone." He refuses to talk alongside anyone with Israel citizenship. That goes beyond any problems we might rightly have with Israel and in fact persecutes people for their nationality. If you're not allowed to "cry [insert word for a bigot" at that, what can you legitimately "cry [insert word for a bigot" at?

That's where Galloway is a bit dodgy IMO. Boycott Israeli institutions is one thing and perfectly legitimate. Indeed I support such an approach. Boycotting individuals purely on the basis of their nationality is not cool.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Most people aren't robots. They have visceral and emotional reactions to events.

Which makes a rational response all the more necessary. You can dismiss someone using "racist" as a pejorative fairly easily, it's hollow and doesn't mean anything. Much more difficult to deny a reasoned argument. That's why the stats that were posted on TFF about black/white conviction rates were so powerful. You just can't ignore something like that. Unlike a SJW shouting white privilege in your face.

 

[smat]

Yep I second that. It's really hard being white, male and hetero.

#gamergate

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

wat

 

[SUTSS]

EG has a point here though. You can especially see it with the UKIP/Immigration debate. Instead of just shouting down every UKIP supporter why not make the positive case for immigration? People who are undecided can see the UKIP argument but there is no counter argument, just accusations of racism so who are they going to be more persuaded by?

 

[Christian Slater]

I think there's certainly a casual anti-semitism in society. Judaism seems to be fair game for public scorn or ridicule. However, I don't see it being at the level if malice as is claimed here.

 

[SUTSS]

Does casual anti-semitism allow more serious forms of anti-semitism to occur?

 

[Christian Slater]

It certainly enables it.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Well of course Zionist groups would maintain that their chosen people ideology doesn't imply superiority, they'd never be able to maintain their victim narrative if they did. The scripture and mythology itself however is fairly overt about it. And besides, it's not even about what they are or what they believe so much as what they're perceived to.



No response from a social justice warrior is ever complete without hysterical cries of "bigot!".

You pretty much said Jews brought antisemitism on themselves by claiming to be chosen people.

But the only people who bang on about chosen people are antisemites.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You pretty much said Jews brought antisemitism on themselves by claiming to be chosen people.

You've deliberately worded it that way to make it sound like I'd suggested they somehow deserve what they get, which clearly isn't what I said. How do you explain anti-Semitism as a phenomena? It can't be random given the way it manifests so similarly.

 

[Christian Slater]

Anti-Semitic stereotypes and casual bigotry is ingrained in culture, tge prejudices Jewish folk suffer today is the same they experienced centuries ago. They've always been considered the unwanted outsider.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

You've deliberately worded it that way to make it sound like I'd suggested they somehow deserve what they get, which clearly isn't what I said. How do you explain anti-Semitism as a phenomena? It can't be random given the way it manifests so similarly.

Well, it's pretty complicated, but can basically be distilled to a few ideas. Firstly, Jewish communities, being diasporic, retained their own customs and laws, within wider socieites; and like other culturally distinct minority groups in the Middle Ages (whether migrant, like the Romani or indigenous, like the Welsh) were viewed with suspicion and hostility.

But there were several other currents going on that led to the particular character of antisemitism . Firstly the Catholic Church; in exempting Jews from canon law about usury, and in promoting the idea of the Jewish Deicide; stoked resentment against Jewish communities, often intentionally. Secondly, economic factors - largely punitive taxation of Jews by the Crown meant that dealings with Jewish moneylenders were often disastrous or extortionary - often due to the moneylender being bankrupted by taxation, leading to mortgaged property being 'acquired' on the cheap by non-Jews, who unable to charge interest were 'forced' to foreclose.

All of this happened throughout Europe for centuries. Stuff like blood libel is common to other distinct minority groups (for example, the myth about Romani kidnapping children was equally prevalent and pernicious). Some stuff is explicitly down to the roles Jews occupied in Medieval Christian society.

Then you've got the Enlightenment-era scientific racism, the birth of European Nationalism, the rise of European fascism, the foundation of Israel, divide and rule tactics in colonial North Africa (particularly Algeria) and Arab Nationalism to explain where we are at the moment.

 

[Dave]

Yes.