Man City v West Brom 12:45 - 21/3/2015

[Stringy]

I think it's useful shorthand because it does imply the denial of a clear chance. I know it's not 'the law' but from a descriptive point of view it differentiates that sort of foul from, say, a handball on the line, which would also be denying a clear goalscoring opportunity

I disagree that it is a good description. What if you get Matt Rhead breaking through the last man on the half way line and you have Vincent Kompany chasing him and tripping him over? He probably would have tackled him anyway and in this case the two terms wouldn't be interchangeable. Similarly what if a defending player is the last man but he's pushing the striker very wide?

 

[Master D]

I really, really hate Michael Owen, Steve McManaman and Robbie Savage as commentators. Especially the latter two, at least Michael Owen is relatively boring and inoffensive. Someone needs to tell Steve and Robbie that moaning about everything and seeming outraged and appalled is not good analysis.

Mock outrage and shouting the loudest is what 'punditry' is all about these days. McManaman is a smug, arrogant tosser of the highest order. Haven't watched the pre-match show but did he mention that he used to play for Real Madrid?

Nothing is worse than motormouth Steve Claridge and Danny Mills on the radio though.

 

[silkyman]

Would the player he sent off in either of those cases?

If he's being pushed very wide, is he really the 'last man' that the attacker would have to beat to get a sight of goal?

Anyway. 2-0

 

[silkyman]

City's 1000th PL goal in Pellegrini's 100th game in charge which could yet see Hart's 100th City clean sheet and Aguero's 100th City goal.

#milestones

 

[Stringy]

Would the player he sent off in either of those cases?

If he's being pushed very wide, is he really the 'last man' that the attacker would have to beat to get a sight of goal?

Anyway. 2-0

Probably not and obviously I was exaggerating to the point of lunacy in both cases. I just don't agree that last man and denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity is necessarily interchangeable. You can be the last man and commit a foul that would not deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

 

[JimJams]

I disagree that it is a good description.

You are wrong. Plain and simple. And I don't say this purely because I said it in my first post in the thread. I have chosen to disregard any kind of argument you can offer as that suits my agenda. Good day to you sir.

 

[silkyman]

It's like watching someone play FIFA at the moment.

 

[Stringy]

You are wrong. Plain and simple. And I don't say this purely because I said it in my first post in the thread. I have chosen to disregard any kind of argument you can offer as that suits my agenda. Good day to you sir.

Hadn't even noticed.

 

[JimJams]

It's like watching someone play FIFA at the moment.

Watching someone play FIFA is boring as fuck.

 

[silkyman]

Probably not and obviously I was exaggerating to the point of lunacy in both cases. I just don't agree that last man and denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity is necessarily interchangeable. You can be the last man and commit a foul that would not deny an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

So if you put it the other way around and someone has been sent off for stopping an attacked from being clear through on the 'keeper then they will have been the 'last man'.

They are not automatically interchangeable, but if the defender is obviously the 'last man' between the attacker and a shot at goal with only the 'keeper to beat, then they will usually get sent off.

 

[silkyman]

Watching someone play FIFA is boring as fuck.

Yes, but you do see a lot of totally one sided games.

 

[Stringy]

So if you put it the other way around and someone has been sent off for stopping an attacked from being clear through on the 'keeper then they will have been the 'last man'.

They are not automatically interchangeable, but if the defender is obviously the 'last man' between the attacker and a shot at goal with only the 'keeper to beat, then they will usually get sent off.

I do agree that if there's a chance of a shot on goal then they will usually be sent off. If I was in a stadium I would expect a sending off too. And I think the referee was right to send a WBA player off in this case.

But for argument's sake, I was just thinking more along the lines of what Gary Nev was saying the other month. The top keepers he would expect to save maybe eight out of ten one-on-ones. Had Bony gone through in a similar position vs De Gea or Neuer or whoever, and the defender had committed a foul as the last man but not been sent off, would there have been reasonable grounds for criticism? Would that be an obvious goalscoring opportunity or would you have take into consideration the quality of the goalkeeper?

I guess precedent comes into it. We have an idea of what we expect to be given for what kind of foul.

 

[Mr.Andrews]

silkyman yes especially when one side is playing against ten men. its not difficult to dominate the game from that point onwards.

 

[JimJams]

So confirmed, the ref got the wrong guy. As mentioned, best thing for WBA in the long run.

 

[This Charming Mike]

City's 1000th PL goal in Pellegrini's 100th game in charge which could yet see Hart's 100th City clean sheet and Aguero's 100th City goal.

#milestones

The OCD in me wants all of this to happen.

 

[silkyman]

silkyman yes especially when one side is playing against ten men. its not difficult to dominate the game from that point onwards.

That's why every team with 10 men always loses. I knew there was a reason!

 

[silkyman]

I do agree that if there's a chance of a shot on goal then they will usually be sent off. If I was in a stadium I would expect a sending off too. And I think the referee was right to send a WBA player off in this case.

But for argument's sake, I was just thinking more along the lines of what Gary Nev was saying the other month. The top keepers he would expect to save maybe eight out of ten one-on-ones. Had Bony gone through in a similar position vs De Gea or Neuer or whoever, and the defender had committed a foul as the last man but not been sent off, would there have been reasonable grounds for criticism? Would that be an obvious goalscoring opportunity or would you have take into consideration the quality of the goalkeeper?

I guess precedent comes into it. We have an idea of what we expect to be given for what kind of foul.

But then you're changing the law completely. One on one with the keeper is a 'genuine goalscoring opportunity' (wonder how close that 8/10 figure is to reality) and I don't think you can change it based on the 'keeper ability or you'd have to take the attacking player into account too! Is Aguero up against De Gea a genuine chance but Kompany against Myhill not?

 

[Stringy]

But then you're changing the law completely. One on one with the keeper is a 'genuine goalscoring opportunity' (wonder how close that 8/10 figure is to reality) and I don't think you can change it based on the 'keeper ability or you'd have to take the attacking player into account too! Is Aguero up against De Gea a genuine chance but Kompany against Myhill not?

Taken from the Referees' Handbook.

'Denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal...'

I guess it depends on how you view the term obvious. Clearly there is a difference between Peter Crouch breaking clean through with 40 yards still left to run and Lionel Messi in the same position. If the last man hacked Messi down it would be denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity. If Peter Crouch was running through on goal and someone hacked him down, you'd still have fancied other defenders to get around him.

In that case, 'last man' definitely would not be interchangeable with 'denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity'.

Surely?

 

[JimJams]

But you can't enforce the laws of the game based on a refs opinion of a players ability.

 

[Stringy]

But you can't enforce the laws of the game based on a refs opinion of a players ability.

But you can't enforce the laws of the game if it's not clear what is an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

 

[Stringy]

And also, wouldn't it be a fact that Messi was quicker than Crouch rather than an opinion?

 

[silkyman]

But you can't enforce the laws of the game if it's not clear what is an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

One on one with the keeper.

 

[silkyman]

And also, wouldn't it be a fact that Messi was quicker than Crouch rather than an opinion?

It would be a lovely way for referees to favour bigger sides though.

The laws of the game actually saying that a Stoke defender bringing down a United forward is a red card, but a United defender bringing down a Stoke forward in identical circumstances isn't.

That way madness lies.

 

[Stringy]

That's a good point. Consistency is important.

Still, I find it hard to imagine that any two fouls are the same.

 

[Whitechapel]

Banners only work if you have enough fans to lift them...

 

[silkyman]

That's a good point. Consistency is important.

Still, I find it hard to imagine that any two fouls are the same.

They never will be, so the laws have to be broader strokes.