Primark removes racist t-shirt

[Jockney]

context of the t-shirt is ambiguous enough that it can be read in a number of ways, though i think about as many people will connect if with the walking dead as jim crow-era violence. nobody watches the walking dead because it is shit.

i don't see a problem with the bloke complaining. i'm not saying his complaints should have been honoured but it certainly didn't hurt primark any to pull them from the shop.

just a bunch of spoilt, paranoid right-wingers getting into a tizzy about 'principle' again.

 

[Jockney]

This is a problem with some black people, they have no understanding of the N word other than the context it is used in some rap music,

I'm pretty sure if you're black you know what racism feels like, at various different levels.

 

[Jockney]

let's turn this trash fire of a thread into a trash blazeeeee.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

 

[JaseTheVillain]

It's not really a good comparison. People don't discriminate on the grounds of race etc when they call someone a c***.

Fair enough.

Context does matter. But the context isn't just your mates. It's the transatlantic slave trade and the legacy of discrimination since slavery ended. Watch Roots or any film on slavery - you'll see that the term is loaded and could be offensive. 'Cvnt' was never used to reinforce an abhorrent, dehumanising and exploitative practice.

I think you should be allowed to call your mates what you like. Personally, I'm not offended. How could I be? I'm white and English. I've never experienced discrimination. However, lots of people do. If you called it your mate in public there could be someone that it upsets and that's why you should choose not to use it, in my opinion.

Are there any other arguments in favour of using the word than reclaiming it?

Fair point, but as I said earlier, is it offensive if the party who is societally supposed to be offended is not?

 

[Red]

Fair enough.



Fair point, but as I said earlier, is it offensive if the party who is societally supposed to be offended is not?

I think that's irrelevant if you're using an offensive term within earshot of anyone else who might and probably will be offended.

 

[Red]

I'm pretty sure if you're black you know what racism feels like, at various different levels.

I'd agree, but I meant that some black people seem not to care about the socio historic root of the word or how it affects others.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

I think that's irrelevant if you're using an offensive term within earshot of anyone else who might and probably will be offended.

That includes someone who is supposed to be societally offended, does it not? Therefore my point still stands.

 

[Red]

I don;t get this 'supposed to be offended' angle you're using Jase.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

If I'm totally honest, I'm losing track of what the fuck I'm on about too.

 

[Red]

If I'm totally honest, I'm losing track of what the fuck I'm on about too.

Me as well, a bit (about what I'm saying)

 

[smat]

This is a problem with some black people

oh my giddy fucking god, this place

 

[Red]

oh my giddy fucking god, this place

Nice hatchet job son. Daily Fail might be looking for amateur hacks if you need work .

Wasn't it you that orchestrated the 'Red wants prisoner's to be raped' fabrication?

Smat, you sometimes turn up in threads where a serious discussion is happening, post a silly and flippant remark, and then withdraw. How about making a constructive contribution?

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

This is a problem with some black people

Big lips?

 

[Red]

Big lips?

And nostrils.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

And penises.

 

[NorfolkWomble]

The use of the word uncle tom is pretty offensive.

 

[Red]

The use of the word uncle tom is pretty offensive.

Why?

 

[NorfolkWomble]

Why?

It's infantilising and removes agency from people on account of their race. i.e. because a black man is agreeing with a white person's view, its because of a racial hierarchy rather than the possibility that the black man can form their own opinions.

 

[markwwfc1992]

Woooo, calm down mate. I wasn't referring to you specifically. Just saying that a lot of people begin sentences with 'I'm not racist, I've got black friends', or the one I mentioned and then proceed to say something racist. Methinks you protest too much. I actually agree with Stringy's view.
The Scum like to single out ridiculous examples like this and use allegory to vilify 'The PC brigade'.

Fair enough, I apologise as I presumed you were aiming the previous quote to me directly.

 

[markwwfc1992]

The man behind the quote has spoken:

 

[Red]

It's infantilising and removes agency from people on account of their race. i.e. because a black man is agreeing with a white person's view, its because of a racial hierarchy rather than the possibility that the black man can form their own opinions.

I disagree that it's offensive. I'm sure you've read Beecher Stowe's book. I used the term to refer to black people who bellittle themselves by referring to themselves and other black people by using the N word. My calling them Uncle Tom's doesn't remove their agency, they've let that be removed themselves.

 

[sl1k]

I get that, but is a word hurtful if it isn't used in a hurtful manner?

Yes. Because whether it has malicious intent or not, the word still bares its' literal meaning + connotations. It's just poor use of language + expression.

Obviously context mitigates it a little situationally. But it's still a silly choice of word innit.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I could understand a little more if The Walking Dead was less popular. The context is shared by almost everyone though

I can't decide whether you don't know how many people there are, or if you just think the walking dead is a lot, lot more popular than it really is.

Either way, you're pretty far off with this statement.

 

[Stringy]

I can't decide whether you don't know how many people there are, or if you just think the walking dead is a lot, lot more popular than it really is.

Either way, you're pretty far off with this statement.

You haven't quoted the rest that sentence, which was that you wouldn't jump to conclusions even if you hadn't watched it. And most people do know what The Walking Dead is so can only assume you must have been living under a rock for the past three or four years too!

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

And most people do know what The Walking Dead is so can only assume you must have been living under a rock for the past three or four years too!

Whether you're referring to England or the world, you're still wrong and that wasn't your initial point - which was that most people would get the reference.

I didn't quote the bit about jumping to conclusions because I thought it was a bit too serious and I am not arrogant enough to tell people when they should and shouldn't be offended.

 

[Stringy]

The Walking Dead really is popular and if you hadn't watched it then I'd be amazed if you hadn't seen or heard references to it on TV adverts, Twitter, Facebook, regular conversation etc. Obviously unless we go out and do some research neither of us can prove it but I really think you're underestimating how many people share the reference to Lucille. Even if you didn't get the reference you could have used your powers of inference to work out that perhaps it's not racist. No-one wears a t-shirt with the intention of inciting violence and hatred against black people.

I'm not being arrogant. I just think if you're offended by it you're perhaps barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Jockney]

The Walking Dead really is popular and if you hadn't watched it then I'd be amazed if you hadn't seen or heard references to it on TV adverts, Twitter, Facebook, regular conversation etc. Obviously unless we go out and do some research neither of us can prove it but I really think you're underestimating how many people share the reference to Lucille. Even if you didn't get the reference you could have used your powers of inference to work out that perhaps it's not racist. No-one wears a t-shirt with the intention of inciting violence and hatred against black people.

I'm not being arrogant. I just think if you're offended by it you're perhaps barking up the wrong tree?

I don't think the issue is that the t-shirt is being sought after by fascists or angry racists (this aside from the fact that you don't have to be racist, consciously or otherwise, to reproduce racism). The normalising effect in the contemporary moment it has on historical racist sloganeering is a matter of debate, though. Aside from the racist connotations, why anyone would passively identify with random and chaotic street violence is an unsettling example of cognitive dissonance, as if language, through a process of intense and ubiquitous commodification, has been divested of its power which obviously isn't the case.

 

[Leo]

I don't think the issue is that the t-shirt is being sought after by fascists or angry racists (this aside from the fact that you don't have to be racist, consciously or otherwise, to reproduce racism). The normalising effect in the contemporary moment it has on historical racist sloganeering is a matter of debate, though. Aside from the racist connotations, why anyone would passively identify with random and chaotic street violence is an unsettling example of cognitive dissonance, as if language, through a process of intense and ubiquitous commodification, has been divested of its power which obviously isn't the case.

you must be a hoot to have a bit of chit chat with over a bite to eat Jockney...ffs..........

 

[Stringy]

The t-shirt is a reference to one fantastic episode of television in a programme which is otherwise popular but average - nothing more, nothing less, in my view. All of this about normalising racial slogans, street violence and the power of language is a great argument but not for me. Lots of fantastic words which convey cool meaning, but very ivory tower ish.

Edit: it's just a t-shirt