Rivalries (real, tinpot and imagined)

[shoddycollins]

I wanted to reply to Vanni's comments in the Bingham thread, but it would be a bit silly to do that since the rest of his post is about preserving the sanctity of that thread for discussion of the chosen, one, so I've created a new thread to reply in... And I figure the thread can be about rivalries in general, not just Cartlepool

A few points I'd like to point out if I may -

1 - The table doesn't lie. Pools are higher than Carlisle atm, so by definition, they're better. And don't tell me they had the easiest fixtures, as it doesn't matter.
2 - I hope no one says Carlisle and Pools aren't rivals, because it's clear this isn't banter but decades old rivalry.
3 - I'm afraid HG is doing a bad job at policing this thread.
4 - For the 2347th time this thread is about the great one(peace be bestowed upon him). Silly talk about which side's the better should go in the Jabo Fat Billy thread or whatever the hell it's called.

(Let's see if I can google up an image of Him which isn't already on this thread...............................................ok found one, even though He's celebrating a goal against us)

I think I speak for both Carlisle and Hartlepool fans when I say this, but while there is certainly a strong niggle between our two clubs, it's not a major rivalry.

It's not really decades old, and I would say it not a proper 'derby' rivalry that's going to make anyone's top 100 footballing rivalries, or even have a name as such. We have no traditional derby and often look on enviously at those other teams who have one game above all that gets the blood flowing. Our proper traditional rivalry was Workington Reds, but we haven't played them in a long time and these days look upon them as a friendly local non-league side we can get some summer practice against, nick goalkeepers from, offload unwanted players to and occasionally borrow the ground of when ours gets flooded. The days we actually played in the league were well before my time, and I don't know what things were like back then.

We've always latched onto another club wherever we've been as we need somewhere we can amass a large number of away fans and have that big away trip that other clubs have. In the Conference it was Morecambe and in League 1 it was Preston. Actually before we got relegated from Division 3, it was Darlington. Currently it's definitely Hartlepool. These clubs usually respond to our away fans by mocking how seriously we were taking it and trying to turn it into a derby match when they couldn't really care less about us, although any match with a large number of away fans will always have a bit of an edge which rubs off on the home fans. The return fixtures at Brunton Park are often nowhere near as hotly contested, though Hartlepool I think do bring more fans up than Preston used to. Should we end up in a different division to Hartlepool anytime soon, we will focus our attention somewhere else.

I would say that the majority of our fans know fine well this isn't a derby, that we're not filling the gap in the Poolies' lives that Darlo vacated. There are no dartboards in pubs in Hartlepool with Jimmy Glass' face on them, no Monkey Hangers who care more about finishing above us than they do promotion. We don't care as much about them as we're mocked for either, we just like a good away day. It's only really the wannabe hoolies and keyboard warriors posting on Facebook who want to believe this is like the Boca / River of the North. I used to find their behaviour a bit embarrasing, even though part of me would secretly like a derby, but it does seem that Hartlepool have a few of the same too (particularly video-rant guy), so it isn't just us at least.

Hartlepool might feel in a similar situation now that Darlington are pining for the fjords, but I imagine that while there is a club bearing the Darlington name, Hartlepool fans will always feel this club are their traditional rivals, even if they can't actually play them right now. It's possible Darlo could return some time in the distant future. They're making pretty slow progress at the moment, but I'm sure part of that is to do with not being able to play their home games in Darlington. They'll probably get more of a crowd behind them and some momentum once they can play in the town.

It's not really a local rivalry, you could fit several clubs into the distance between us down South. We're in different regions of the county even, though there was a time when Cumbria was part of a 'North' region along with the North East, and we are still in the same BBC Region, we're also both in that vague 'places where the nearest big city is Newcastle' area, so there is a certain localness to it, it's just a bit of a pisstake to suggest that there is some kind of local bragging rights, as Carlisle and Hartlepool fans don't exactly encounter each other on a regular basis. Our nearest League 2 club is actually Morecambe, even closer in terms of time thanks to the M6, I presume their nearest is York. The one thing we do share is being kind of stuck up here far from anyone else in the forgotten part of the country.

There have certainly been extra dimensions to the rivalry this past year. Nathan Buddle favouriting a tweet from a Carlisle fan saying he hoped we relegated Hartlepool last season; 14 goals in our last three meetings; Billy Paynter and Tony Caig going to Hartlepool and then Paynter promising (and following up on that) to celebrate in front of Curle if he scored; The Hartlepool video-warrior. Players and managers (and in Hartlepool's case, chairmen) who aren't as aware of the clubs histories will blatantly call it a derby because that's what suits them best, they want to play in derbies, so they call this one. Jeff Stelling called it a derby too, but I'm sure that's more to do with him being a media guy.

So yeah, I planned to write something a bit less disjointed but got a little carried away and ended up rambling. There is rivalry between us but it's not especially old and is no derby.

 

[Vanni]

Good post Shoddy, and no you weren't rambling.

"these days look upon them as a friendly local non-league side we can get some summer practice against, nick goalkeepers from, offload unwanted players to and occasionally borrow the ground of when ours gets flooded"

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

This is fantastic because I had signed in to post my thoughts on the Oxford-Orient bitch fest that flared up in another thread, but my own rambling effort is far more at home here.

Our main rivalries are with Swindon and Reading and they are (obviously) based on location. I'm not sure that Leyton Orient qualify as "rivals" under any accepted definition but there is a lot of animosity and I think I'm correct in saying that it all stems from the last game of the 2006 season. The strength of feeling probably surprises fans of any other clubs because they just won't remember the game.

Orient needed a win to guarantee automatic promotion and Oxford needed a win to stay in the league. Circumstance meant that one team was going to be celebrating at the others expense and the fact that we were one of the two worst teams in the league meant the odds were not in our favour. Our club made an early mistake by giving Orient far, far more tickets than we had to.

With the game square at 2-2, both teams needed a win and pushed forward, Orient hit us on the break and got the winner in stoppage time. Their fans were on our pitch celebrating. A lot of Oxford fans felt groups of Orient supporters were more focussed on taking the piss than anything else. I remember reading that an Oxford fan lashed out at the Orient captain.

The bad feelings are obviously stronger on the Oxford side, given that Orient had a party to get on with and a promotion to enjoy. A lot of Oxford supporters looked for the fixture and were happy the away one is up first. I do get that. I'm not a top boy looking to act nawty and I'm absolutely the worst person in the world to ask about that - I fight like a drowning giraffe and nothing in my wardrobe costs more than £3. It's just that football is a lot better when viewed from a packed away end wih a bit more of an atmosphere. It already has a busy thread on our forum and the anticipation is increasing on our side.

I don't really know how up for it Orient will be - I actually don't know much about them at all, outside what I've written here. It's sort of telling that one of their fans on here is keen to point out that we mean nothing to them whilst also admitting to following our forum for "years" though.

As things stand, Orient look like they're going to smash this league. If we can keep our form up until October then it could also be important for the on-the-pitch result, which would add a bit more spice.

As for other teams, Mansfield fans are still bitter about an abandoned game and we went through a couple of trips that just descended into handbags amongst the supporters. From what I've read, that's sort of fizzled out and I'd say we are actually the less bothered of the two teams (a rare occasion indeed).

Geographically speaking, our closest games in this league - I'd guess Northampton, Bristol and Wycombe - don't really mean much to me at all.

 

[E10rifle]

Unicorn derby: West Ham
Actual derby: Brentford
Secondary derby: Southend
They wish it was a derby: Dagenham
The media will portray it as a Derby but will be wrong: Any other London club, Colchester
Vague historical antipathy: Cambridge
Abject irrelevance: Barnet

 

[BeesKnees]

Genuine derbies: Enfield and Stevenage
The rest come and go depending on whether we are competing with them for something important.
Luton fans got stroppy when they decided our chairman was to blame for their points deduction. Northampton fans seemed to enjoy our relegation so in both examples it's extra sweet when we get points against them but I can't really call it a rivalry as I don't care what they do when we don't play them.

 

[E10rifle]

A lot of Oxford fans felt groups of Orient supporters were more focussed on taking the piss than anything else. I remember reading that an Oxford fan lashed out at the Orient captain.

The bad feelings are obviously stronger on the Oxford side, given that Orient had a party to get on with and a promotion to enjoy.

I don't really know how up for it Orient will be - I actually don't know much about them at all, outside what I've written here. It's sort of telling that one of their fans on here is keen to point out that we mean nothing to them whilst also admitting to following our forum for "years" though.

I read a lot of football forums. Though actually I mostly meant times that it has been brought up by others on the O's board. Seriously Oxford, as a club, mean absolutely nothing to Orient fans other than being the place we got promoted. I'm sure there were a few cretins out of the 4,000+ that were giving it large, but the vast majority were just delighted that we'd finally escaped this foetid division after 11 years.

I guess the day in general lives large in the memory for the club as a whole in general, and your dispropotionately large amount of delinquent fans in particular. So yes, it is very much a one-way thing.

 

[shoddycollins]

Unicorn derby: West Ham
Actual derby: Brentford
Secondary derby: Southend
They wish it was a derby: Dagenham
The media will portray it as a Derby but will be wrong: Any other London club, Colchester
Vague historical antipathy: Cambridge
Abject irrelevance: Barnet

What's a unicorn derby?

 

[E10rifle]

What's a unicorn derby?

A mythical beast of a derby, because it doesn't exist (well, hasn't since the 1980s). But it would. If we weren't shit.

 

[shoddycollins]

A mythical beast of a derby, because it doesn't exist (well, hasn't since the 1980s). But it would. If we weren't shit.

Thanks... well:

Unicorn derby: Newcastle United
Actual derby: Workington
Secondary derby: Middlesbrough
They wish it was a derby: Queen of the South
The media will portray it as a Derby but will be wrong: Hartlepool (rivalry, yes, sometimes very heated, yes, derby... no)
Vague historical antipathy: Lincoln
Abject irrelevance: Levki Sofia

 

[Murphy]

Dagenham & Hereford.

That's what FIFA always had us down for anyway for whatever reason.

 

[shoddycollins]

Dagenham & Hereford.

That's what FIFA always had us down for anyway for whatever reason.

I thought you were saying that you'd decided to kick Redbridge out and replace them with Hereford.

 

[ThisTinpotLeague]

I read a lot of football forums. Though actually I mostly meant times that it has been brought up by others on the O's board. Seriously Oxford, as a club, mean absolutely nothing to Orient fans other than being the place we got promoted. I'm sure there were a few cretins out of the 4,000+ that were giving it large, but the vast majority were just delighted that we'd finally escaped this foetid division after 11 years.

I guess the day in general lives large in the memory for the club as a whole in general, and your dispropotionately large amount of delinquent fans in particular. So yes, it is very much a one-way thing.

Bahaha. Have to do a bit better than that to get a bite.

Fair enough then, it's very one sided, I'll believe you. Won't effect our enjoyment of the match.

Colour me surprised to hear that it's not just a couple of sad acts monitoring our forums though, Oxford United are actually prime fare on your own board? I don't think I've read very much on Orient until you got relegated, and this past week, so fair play to those die hards trawling through our place more than I do.

 

[Laker]

Our historic rivals are Peterborough, and if(when?!) we are in the same division again it'll be chaos. We haven't played them competitively for so long, I'm wishing it to come along every time there's a cup draw!

We had good fun with Histon in the Conference when they thought there was a derby there but they've now sunk down to their natural irrelevance again. But they did their best to destroy us. But was it a derby? I don't think so.

We've had vague moments of rivalry with a few reasonably local sides - Northampton, Southend, Orient, Stevenage and of course Luton but none could be truly classed as derbies.

 

[Pliny Harris]

Unicorn derby: Burnley, Leeds United, Shuddersfield, even bloody Bratfud City. Competed with all but Dirty Leeds in the football league plenty.

Actual derby: This is the tricky bit. Is there one? York City was always a winner but we've been separated for several years. The other Yorkshire league sides are MASSIVE compared to us and engulf local support, while the sides from over the 'ills are long gone. For now the grim truth is Guiseleeds and Jester are our rivals... In the coming years we could enjoy rivalries with FC United of Manchester, Stockport County, York City and Rochdale depending on what happens.

Secondary derby: All our current rivalries are pretty secondary. Guiseley and Chester again?

They wish it was a derby: Uh, Guiseley. We got the lone man, his dog and his Sainsbury's bag full of programmes from the '70s excited very frequently in our glue league days. Examples include Buxton, Garforth, Harrogate fuck'n Railway Athletic, Bradford Park Ave, Mossley, Stalybridge and Altrincham.

The media will portray it as a derby but will be wrong: Guiseley?

Vague historical antipathy: Altrincham spring to mind from winning their 94th reprieve when we folded, and their chairman being very gobby about it.

Abject irrelevance: Prescot Cables.

 

[GEORGE]

Our historic rivals are Peterborough, and if(when?!) we are in the same division again it'll be chaos. We haven't played them competitively for so long, I'm wishing it to come along every time there's a cup draw!

We had good fun with Histon in the Conference when they thought there was a derby there but they've now sunk down to their natural irrelevance again. But they did their best to destroy us. But was it a derby? I don't think so.

We've had vague moments of rivalry with a few reasonably local sides - Northampton, Southend, Orient, Stevenage and of course Luton but none could be truly classed as derbies.

I thought your historic rivals were Cambridge City. Well they were when I started watching football.

 

[jacobncfc]

We only really have two. Forest is obviously the main one, they claim not to care but have been notable by their pitch invading, wild celebrations in recent League Cup and friendly meetings. Mansfield is decent, both clubs seem to accept it as their second biggest game so there's not really any pretending not to care.

We've had some tasty encounters with Lincoln but they seem to have disappeared off the map and Burton seemed to think it was a derby during the one season we've ever been in the same division.

There's some historical dislike going on with Bristol Rovers, but I'm not sure either side remembers why any more.

 

[Richard Cranium]

This is fantastic because I had signed in to post my thoughts on the Oxford-Orient bitch fest that flared up in another thread, but my own rambling effort is far more at home here.

Our main rivalries are with Swindon and Reading and they are (obviously) based on location. I'm not sure that Leyton Orient qualify as "rivals" under any accepted definition but there is a lot of animosity and I think I'm correct in saying that it all stems from the last game of the 2006 season. The strength of feeling probably surprises fans of any other clubs because they just won't remember the game.

Orient needed a win to guarantee automatic promotion and Oxford needed a win to stay in the league. Circumstance meant that one team was going to be celebrating at the others expense and the fact that we were one of the two worst teams in the league meant the odds were not in our favour. Our club made an early mistake by giving Orient far, far more tickets than we had to.

With the game square at 2-2, both teams needed a win and pushed forward, Orient hit us on the break and got the winner in stoppage time. Their fans were on our pitch celebrating. A lot of Oxford fans felt groups of Orient supporters were more focussed on taking the piss than anything else. I remember reading that an Oxford fan lashed out at the Orient captain.

The bad feelings are obviously stronger on the Oxford side, given that Orient had a party to get on with and a promotion to enjoy. A lot of Oxford supporters looked for the fixture and were happy the away one is up first. I do get that. I'm not a top boy looking to act nawty and I'm absolutely the worst person in the world to ask about that - I fight like a drowning giraffe and nothing in my wardrobe costs more than £3. It's just that football is a lot better when viewed from a packed away end wih a bit more of an atmosphere. It already has a busy thread on our forum and the anticipation is increasing on our side.

I don't really know how up for it Orient will be - I actually don't know much about them at all, outside what I've written here. It's sort of telling that one of their fans on here is keen to point out that we mean nothing to them whilst also admitting to following our forum for "years" though.

As things stand, Orient look like they're going to smash this league. If we can keep our form up until October then it could also be important for the on-the-pitch result, which would add a bit more spice.

As for other teams, Mansfield fans are still bitter about an abandoned game and we went through a couple of trips that just descended into handbags amongst the supporters. From what I've read, that's sort of fizzled out and I'd say we are actually the less bothered of the two teams (a rare occasion indeed).

Geographically speaking, our closest games in this league - I'd guess Northampton, Bristol and Wycombe - don't really mean much to me at all.

Howard Webb was in charge of that game aswell.

 

[shoddycollins]

Howard Webb was in charge of that game aswell.

So in this game Howard Webb refereed between Oxford and Mansfield, Did ManU get awarded a penalty in the final minute?

 

[Stoney]

We only have one rivalry in my eyes, Chesterfield. I think that maybe more down to the fact I live half way between Mansfield and Chesterfield so I literally don't know or come across any Notts County fans.

With Notts County for me it's just a game that's nice to win and a good chance to take lots of fans and have a good drink! I've seen more hatred between Mansfield and other South Yorkshire clubs such as Rotherham and Doncaster (due to the miners strike etc) than I've ever seen at Notts.

Whilst in the conference Alfreton tried to get a rivalry going with us, it was basically the same scenario that Cambridge had with Histon.

 

[Laker]

I thought your historic rivals were Cambridge City. Well they were when I started watching football.

I'm going to guess you started watching football before me. ;-) You are correct that there was a Cambridge derby back in the 50s and 60s however we haven't played each other competitively since then and there's no animosity from our side though I'm vaguely aware they don't like us too much, partly as we stole "their" league spot in 1970.

I had forgotten it really as most proponents of that derby are probably dead!

 

[Kenneth E End]

Luton fans got stroppy when they decided our chairman was to blame for their points deduction.

Barnet who were a constant at the bottom end of the table attempting to escape relegation, having to vote to give 3 teams in their division a massive disadvantage. Yes there was no self interest in that decision whatsoever. He shouldn't have ever been put in the position to make a call in the first place.

Anecdotally, I think Kleanthous regrets that decision now. He's actually become a 'friend' of the club/board with some of his views for 3 up/down.

 

[Kenneth E End]

There are several Luton one way rivalries; these teams obviously think we care about them. Name no names... (cough) Mansfield, Stevenage.(cough)

We have one proper proper rivalry and that is, and always is Watford.

 

[BeesKnees]

Barnet who were a constant at the bottom end of the table attempting to escape relegation, having to vote to give 3 teams in their division a massive disadvantage. Yes there was no self interest in that decision whatsoever. He shouldn't have ever been put in the position to make a call in the first place.
Anecdotally, I think Kleanthous regrets that decision now. He's actually become a 'friend' of the club/board with some of his views for 3 up/down.

Out of a panel of eight, six voted in favour of the deduction so TKs vote played little part in the actual decision.
According to him two declared conflict of interest but were told to get on with it by the rest of the board. Now considering 3 were chairman of championship clubs, 3 were chairman of league one clubs and 2 were from league two. Who do you think were the most likely ones who might of declared a conflict of interest?
TK has always made it clear that he felt Luton were doubly punished but he was not in a position to change the outcome. As I understand it, he has never said how he or any other individual voted only how the decision was made, he has said he regrets that as it was his first ever board meeting he hadn't seen all the evidence before being asked to make a decision.
Even the Luton board in 2008 accepted that TK wasn't the reason for the points deduction and actually were grateful for his honesty as they had originally been told it was unanimous when actually there had been 2 abstentions.

None of this stopped Luton fans going overboard and claiming our Chairman was to blame for your points deduction.

 

[SamPAFC]

Unicorn Derby: well we're not close to any big teams so we don't really have one, I guess when we were in the championship Bristol City was our closest game and you could maybe argue that there was the tiniest bit of a rivalry

Actual Derby: Exeter, although it does seem like a made up rivalry in the sense that they are 40 miles away, in most other areas of England that isn't even that close. It's not even like we've been in the same league as them for most of our history, we've been higher than them... But I guess at some point our fans decided they didn't like eachother and it's been a rivalry ever since.

Secondary Derby: I know a few people would say Torquay, but there is such a gap between us in terms of quality/fan base that there is hardly animosity between fans, it's more of a friendly rivalry that is always a good away day. Other than that, it has always been teams that were rivals on the pitch, like Luton in our promotion season in 2002, and in the 90s Burnley always seemed to fuck us over, they beat us in the 1994 playoffs then relegated us 4 years later.

They wish it was a Derby: probably Torquay tbh, although I don't they take it that seriously either

The media portrays it as a Derby but are wrong: Portsmouth and the so called 'Dockyard Derby', tbh this whole made up rivalry is all just to sell tickets and it does work seeing as the crowds for these games do seem to be quite big. However, I've noticed that this season unlike other seasons there does seem to be a lot of arguments and bites between both sets of fans on Twitter, mostly stemmed from Pompeys persistent obsession of Reuben Reid and the fact that we both see eachother as possible promotion rivals for this season.

 

[rudebwoyben]

Barnet who were a constant at the bottom end of the table attempting to escape relegation, having to vote to give 3 teams in their division a massive disadvantage. Yes there was no self interest in that decision whatsoever. He shouldn't have ever been put in the position to make a call in the first place.

Anecdotally, I think Kleanthous regrets that decision now. He's actually become a 'friend' of the club/board with some of his views for 3 up/down.

In the two previous seasons we had finished 14th and 12th in League 2, so we were hardly a constant at the bottom end of the table.

 

[Wombling Kiwi]

for the Wombles ours is obviously the MK Mongs.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Colour me surprised to hear that it's not just a couple of sad acts monitoring our forums though, Oxford United are actually prime fare on your own board? I don't think I've read very much on Orient until you got relegated, and this past week, so fair play to those die hards trawling through our place more than I do.

One of my jobs involves watching football, just so happened I had Oxford v Yeovil to watch. Jumped on the Oxford forum to read the match day thread, was rather surprised to see a 'Leyton Orient' thread at the top!

The only time Oxford are mentioned on our messageboard is as the place where we got promoted, that's all. Oxford as a club mean about as much to me as Hartlepool, just a team in our league.

 

[Flaxman's Alibi]

Mansfield fans only have one fierce rivalry, and that's Chesterfield. Though the naughty buggers try and dismiss it these days as their club has been on an upward trajectory and we've very much been languishing in the doldrums.

12 miles apart, I've read over the years that the hatred was born out of the miners strike (for those that prefer to call us scabs, my father, uncle and grandfather were all striking Mansfield miners, but we'll brush over that inconvenience) but I remember heated derbies before 1984 - though I was a kid, so any old heated quarrel seemed like an event.
Plus, the mines thing is a bit lopsided, as there were far more collieries in the North Notts coalfield than in North-east Derbyshire one - it's a bit like Wee Jimmy Krankie calling Lou Ferrigno a scab (theres one for the teenagers). I kinda think that the whole pit strike issue is more of a flag of convenience these days, and we don't just need to pop over the M1 to be called scabs. I've been called one in such unlikely places as Brighton and even Torquay, though admit that the term is more of a vocal rock to hurl at a bunch of people - 80% of which have never worked down a mine.

No, I think the bitterness is simply from the close proximity of the town's, both of which are of equal sizes (unless you count our joined at the hip neighbour, Ashfield, then our community is suddenly considerably larger), though most right minded Mansfield folk would agree that Chesterfield has much more going for it and is the wealthier of the two.
What both towns have is that famous small town, insular mentality and a needy one upmanship hunger, and in that case (and in many thanks to our previous life sucking former owner) we've been playing an unsuccessful version of catch up with our rival for the past two decades. So in theory I think the anger surrounding our derbies is down simply to: small mindedness, neediness, one upmanship, and a plain desire for small town antagonism.

Just a note about Notts Co. It is a rivalry, but there's little bitterness on the Mansfield part. We just take delight in beating our city rivals, who will always look down their noses at the yokels from up North of the county. We talk differently to them, think differently to them, pluck our banjos differently to them, but I kinda like our winking joshery, much more than the pit of your stomach, sneering hatred that follows around the Mansfield-Chesterfield bitchfest. Many Mansfield folk just see it as a party, win, lose or draw. Both attract their daytrippers, one for a piss up and one for a fight.

Thanks for reading.

 

[wilsontown]

Well, we sing songs about Leeds and Scarborough, but I highly doubt that Leeds give the slightest fuck about us and Scarborough no longer exist so we might just as well be singing about Glasshoughton Welfare for all the relevance it has.

There's a distinct edge whenever we play Bury due to something that happened long before most of the wannabe casuals on both sides were born, but they've gone on to better things.

Hartlepool always travel in large numbers to us but we don't really reciprocate, then again York is a nicer day out than Hartlepool. That's currently our closest away fixture, just ahead of Mansfield and Accrington. There's a bit of needle with Mansfield, but that's about it.

 

[mowgli]

We havn't had a local derby since 1993 when we were in The Conference playing Slough Town. Some of our fans like to make out Oxford are our rivals but the majority of us don't as they're just another Football League club.