Rooney returns...

[Stevencc]

Are you saying Rooney never played a similar position to Kaka?

Even if you remove him, still plenty of superior players on show.

I'm saying that Bilo claimed he was in the top ten forwards born in the 80s, Kaka isn't relevant to that discussion no matter how many acres of the pitch Rooney covered.

All the players you listed are/were superior to Rooney, though.

 

[epic73]

You could make a case for Rooney being better than Mueller.

 

[St. Juste]

You could make a case for Rooney being better than Mueller.

Rooney is 4 years older and has won a lot less.

 

[Pagnell]

Rooney is 4 years older and has won a lot less.

You sound like Spear. Since when has a player winning more than another been a definitive indication of being the better player? I'll answer that for you. Never.

 

[epic73]

Rooney is 4 years older and has won a lot less.

Mueller plays for Bayern.

 

[JimJams]

It's also not "a lot less" either, unless Juste doesn't understand what that means.

 

[St. Juste]

You sound like Spear. Since when has a player winning more than another been a definitive indication of being the better player? I'll answer that for you. Never.

It is one of many factors.

However, don't know why you are jumping on me - I provided 1 factor, the person asserting the contrary provided zero.

I'll provide one more factor - Muller won the World Cup Golden boot and Silver boot. Rooneys record in international tournaments is awful.

If you want a thorough discussion of their respective merits, fine, but don't expect me to mount a thorough defence of Muller in the face of zero evidence.

Mueller plays for Bayern.

Well observed.

Now where is your evidence or factors as to why Rooney is better?

 

[epic73]

It is one of many factors.


Well observed.

Now where is your evidence or factors as to why Rooney is better?

Mueller winning more isn't really a fair way to judge the quality of the players because Mueller plays for Bayern, who have won the last 6 Bundesliga titles and are the best team in Germany by a mile.

I'm not trying to claim Rooney is better, I'm just saying that Mueller having won more isn't a fair measure of quality.

 

[Bilo]

Zlatan is a great example of a player who played at the highest level for far longer than Rooney. He started his career in Sweden, having turned down a trial for Arsenal, where he played scored plenty of goals and won league titles. Then went to Ajax where he played well, scored plenty of goals and won league titles. And so on and so on.

He has more goals than Rooney in fewer appearances for a worse national side. Including 4 against England.

At club football the distance is even greater - both in terms of goals and trophies won.

Ibrahimovic is a far better player than Rooney and I distinctly recall people on this site laughing at this suggestions years ago. He had a far longer spell at the topVila than Rooney too - dispelling Rooney from Man Utd despite being 4 years older.

Don't school me on Zlatan mate, I'm Swedish, most Swedish people who haven't watched a football match in their lives will know more about him than you do.

My point was regarding his peak, and here's the numbers:

In Sweden, he scored 16 goals in 40 appearances (of which 12 goals were in the Swedish second division). I can assure you, you have no idea how shit the Swedish second division is. This is downright poor. Rooney, at the age of 18, would've tripled that. Seriously, not even exaggerating. He didn't win a league title, let alone in plural, so you made that up.

At Ajax, he started that ridiculous winning spree, but only scored 35 goals in 74 appearances, below one per two as is the general rule for a striker performing well in a notoriously attacking league.

At Juve, he scored 23 goals in 70 appearances, and here we're talking downright poor again, at least by his standards.

In 2006, the year he turned 25, he joined Inter and this is when he started delivering world class performances. At Inter, he scored a hugely improved 57 in 88. So he took a giant leap at the age of 25, which correlates well to him then performing significantly better past 30. His peak lasted about nine years, the same can be said for Rooney, and in fact, most strikers in the world.

 

[Abertawe]

Go on Bilo - chew him!

 

[St. Juste]

You could make a case for Rooney being better than Mueller.

I'm not trying to claim Rooney is better, I'm just saying that Mueller having won more isn't a fair measure of quality.

So you can make the case but you won't? Bit of a waste of everyones time.

As it is, no one factor will ever be a good means of comparison. Relative achievements, team and individual, absolutely are relevant though. Muller is a key part of a winning team at club and international level, he isn't the sub goalie.

My point was regarding his peak, and here's the numbers:

In Sweden, he scored 16 goals in 40 appearances (of which 12 goals were in the Swedish second division). I can assure you, you have no idea how shit the Swedish second division is. This is downright poor. Rooney, at the age of 18, would've tripled that. Seriously, not even exaggerating. He didn't win a league title, let alone in plural, so you made that up.

At Ajax, he started that ridiculous winning spree, but only scored 35 goals in 74 appearances, below one per two as is the general rule for a striker performing well in a notoriously attacking league.

At Juve, he scored 23 goals in 70 appearances, and here we're talking downright poor again, at least by his standards.

In 2006, the year he turned 25, he joined Inter and this is when he started delivering world class performances. At Inter, he scored a hugely improved 57 in 88. So he took a giant leap at the age of 25, which correlates well to him then performing significantly better past 30. His peak lasted about nine years, the same can be said for Rooney, and in fact, most strikers in the world.

Let's deal with this in stages.

1) Your point about Rooney tripling Zlatans goal haul in the Swedish second division. Can't accept that, there's absolutely no evidence for it and conjecture isn't even a strong enough word to describe how far a reach it is.

2) I don't agree with your criticism of his goal record at Inter and Juve, these are numbers Rooney would be proud of for much of his career.

As for length of peak, even if we do accept this it means that when Zlatan wasn't at peak he was still scoring goals and being a crucial part of his team. Zlatan not at peak was winning titles with Juventus. Rooney not at peak is struggling with Everton and shipping off to the MLS.

So at his best Zlatan was better, and even off peak he is doing better. Wouldn't be surprised if he continues to outscore the much younger Rooney in the MLS too.

 

[Bilo]

Let's deal with this in stages.

Ok mate

1) Your point about Rooney tripling Zlatans goal haul in the Swedish second division. Can't accept that, there's absolutely no evidence for it and conjecture isn't even a strong enough word to describe how far a reach it is.

Believe me, he'd triple it and I'm being very generous to the Swedish second division. But hey, why listen to me, I've only followed a club for 15 seasons in the Swedish second division so what the hell do I know. How many Swedish second division games have you watched?

2) I don't agree with your criticism of his goal record at Inter and Juve, these are numbers Rooney would be proud of for much of his career.

I didn't critcize his numbers at Inter, I said that's where he hit his peak. At Juve, he managed an average that would equal 12 goals per 38 games (0,33 while taking penalties in fixed fixtures). Rooney betters that return in eleven (11) seasons.

As for length of peak, even if we do accept this it means that when Zlatan wasn't at peak he was still scoring goals and being a crucial part of his team. Zlatan not at peak was winning titles with Juventus. Rooney not at peak is struggling with Everton and shipping off to the MLS.

The titles with Juventus were retracted mate, and you should stop comparing titles as a sign of individual quality like this. Zlatan didn't win the CL and Rooney did, does that change your opinion regarding the two even the slightest? Of course not.

So at his best Zlatan was better, and even off peak he is doing better. Wouldn't be surprised if he continues to outscore the much younger Rooney in the MLS too.

You can't compare the post-thirty Zlatan to the post-thirty Rooney, as I've tried to explain to you. They peaked at different times, a late bloomer will always perform better than an early bloomer post-thirty. And yes, if you spend your years up until your peak in the Swedish second division, a hugely dominant Ajax side and a bribing Juve, your numbers are likely to come out on top next to an early peaker spending his entire career in the Premier League.

Early peakers are almost always poor past the thirties, especially strikers. I just don't get the obsession you have in Britain over it somehow being Rooney's fault, when it's the bloody rule. 8-9 years peak is where it's at for almost everyone.

 

[G.B]

 

[St. Juste]

Ok mate

You can't compare the post-thirty Zlatan to the post-thirty Rooney, as I've tried to explain to you. They peaked at different times, a late bloomer will always perform better than an early bloomer post-thirty. And yes, if you spend your years up until your peak in the Swedish second division, a hugely dominant Ajax side and a bribing Juve, your numbers are likely to come out on top next to an early peaker spending his entire career in the Premier League.

Early peakers are almost always poor past the thirties, especially strikers. I just don't get the obsession you have in Britain over it somehow being Rooney's fault, when it's the bloody rule. 8-9 years peak is where it's at for almost everyone.

I was comparing 'non peak' Zlatan with 'non peak' Rooney. Non Peak Zlatan won titles with Juventus (the fact they were retracted is irrelevant to his personal achievement). Non peak Rooney was let go early by Everton.

So, to reiterate, Zlatans peak was higher, as was his non peak. At non peak he scored goals and won titles. Rooney did not.

And as for you statement that Rooney would score 3x as many goals than Zlatan in the Swedish second division - you could have watched every game of football that has ever been played and this statement would still be complete nonsense. I'm shocked you don't realise this.

 

[Pagnell]

Christ, you really do have to admire Hugh's dedication to an argument. No matter what, he will never allow someone else to have the last word, even if that someone quite evidently knows more about the subject and he makes himself look a little silly in the process.

 

[St. Juste]

You make a good point but I think it's bizarre Tarkowski & Mee haven't been picked. You've got the option of three guys who have played in a team that have conceded the fewest outside of the top five with all the benefits that familiarity brings and you don't choose it. A goalkeeper & your two cente backs knowing each other inside would be invaluable at a tournament - shithouse from Southgate.

Shelvey should be in too considering his form and skillset that no one else is bringing.

Christ, you really do have to admire Hugh's dedication to an argument. No matter what, he will never allow someone else to have the last word, even if that someone quite evidently knows more about the subject and he makes himself look a little silly in the process.

My lack of knowledge in this field is solely down to me not watching Swedish second division football?

Does anyone think that Rooney would score 3x as many goals at that level? How on earth could anyone know such a thing?

 

[Pagnell]

It's conjecture but not as ridiculous as you're making out for someone with enough knowledge on both the player's quality and the league in question.

Personally, I agree Ibra is the better overall player when everything is taken into account.

 

[St. Juste]

It's conjecture but not as ridiculous as you're making out for someone with enough knowledge on both the player's quality and the league in question.

Personally, I agree Ibra is the better overall player when everything is taken into account.

Oh no, it absolutely is more ridiculous.

I have made no comment on the quality of the Swedish second division because I don't know.

However, even if I had no idea about the quality of the league I absolutely can challenge the unquantifiable, and absurd, statement that Rooney would score 3x more than Ibrahimovic. Why? Why say something so stupid?

As for commenting on the quality of Ibrahimovic, he's been a major player in world football for over a decade and I have seen him play plenty of times. Do I know more about him than the average Swedish person? I have no idea, and I don't want to know.

It's equivalent to me saying Andy Murray would hammer Pete Sampras, and I know this and can't be questioned on it because I know which small town he was born in.

Ibrahimovic was a better player. His peak was better. His non peak is better.

 

[Pagnell]

It's equivalent to me saying Andy Murray would hammer Pete Sampras, and I know this and can't be questioned on it because I know which small town he was born in.

It really isn't.

 

[St. Juste]

It really isn't.

Scottish people who have never watched tennis know more about Andy Murray than you!

The statement, nonsensical though it is, is less conjecture than Rooney scoring 3x as many goals as Ibrahimovic in the Swedish second division.

At least with the former there is some consensus on the gulf in ability between current players and those in the past.

Both statements are nonsensical conjecture, obviously.

 

[Bilo]

Hugh stares himself blind at this one point I made, ignoring everything else and thinking it makes him right. What he doesn't know is that back in the late nighties when Zlatan played there, and also in 2003 should we put an 18 year old Rooney there, the Swedish second division was largely semi-professional footballers. The captain of my club was a mailman, and we got promoted!

But yes of course we don't actually know if Rooney, who was bought by United at 19 after scoring 15 goals in the Premier League would've outperformed Zlatan, who at age 20 had scored 16 goals in fucking Sweden.

We simply cannot know, unfortunately.

 

[St. Juste]

Hugh stares himself blind at this one point I made, ignoring everything else and thinking it makes him right. What he doesn't know is that back in the late nighties when Zlatan played there, and also in 2003 should we put an 18 year old Rooney there, the Swedish second division was largely semi-professional footballers. The captain of my club was a mailman, and we got promoted!

But yes of course we don't actually know if Rooney, who was bought by United at 19 after scoring 15 goals in the Premier League would've outperformed Zlatan, who at age 20 had scored 16 goals in fucking Sweden.

We simply cannot know, unfortunately.

You said he would score three times as many goals. This was utterly ridiculous.

Still, the rest of what you said was that players peak last 9 years only for strikers. I'm not convinced by this - there are plenty of contrary examples. Also, I think starting later is completely different to declining early.

But nevertheless, even if we accept this is true in the careers of Zlatan and Rooney - the formers peak is higher, and his non peak is higher.

 

[Bilo]

You said he would score three times as many goals. This was utterly ridiculous.

It's not, it's perfectly reasonable and you have no idea beacuse you haven't watched a game in the division in question on your life. Either way, Rooney was a far superior player to Zlatan in the younger years, which was the main point (scored more goals in the Prem than Zlatan did in a semi-professional league).

So is it fair to assume someone who manaxed X goals in the Premier league would score at least triple that in a semi-professional league? Yeah, it is. But you're focusing on this to steer clear of the fact that you tried to pull the whool with Zlatan winning "titles" in Sweden (lol). Just admit you actually have no idea what you're on about and didn't know Zlatan played in the Swedish second division at an age when Rooney was established in the Premier league.

Still, the rest of what you said was that players peak last 9 years only for strikers. I'm not convinced by this - there are plenty of contrary examples. Also, I think starting later is completely different to declining early.

Ok, biology disagrees with you but hey ho.

But nevertheless, even if we accept this is true in the careers of Zlatan and Rooney - the formers peak is higher, and his non peak is higher.

Well it depends on what you consider their non peak.

Post-peak, Zlatan betters Rooney, definitely. Pre-peak? Well then we're on about the Swedish second divison and the Premier league again. It's not a contest either.

Truth is, Zlatan was 25 when he reached performance levels comparable to Rooney (again, Rooney betters Zlatan's numbers at Juve in 11 separate seasons, so several years off-peak as well). Who was actually the better player at their absolute peak is up for debate. One I won't have with you, because you have genuinely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[epic73]

Go on St. Juste, tell Dirk you know more about the Bundesliga than he does.

 

[St. Juste]

It's not, it's perfectly reasonable and you have no idea beacuse you haven't watched a game in the division in question on your life. Either way, Rooney was a far superior player to Zlatan in the younger years, which was the main point (scored more goals in the Prem than Zlatan did in a semi-professional league).

So is it fair to assume someone who manaxed X goals in the Premier league would score at least triple that in a semi-professional league? Yeah, it is. But you're focusing on this to steer clear of the fact that you tried to pull the whool with Zlatan winning "titles" in Sweden (lol). Just admit you actually have no idea what you're on about and didn't know Zlatan played in the Swedish second division at an age when Rooney was established in the Premier league.

Ok, biology disagrees with you but hey ho.
Well it depends on what you consider their non peak.

Post-peak, Zlatan betters Rooney, definitely. Pre-peak? Well then we're on about the Swedish second divison and the Premier league again. It's not a contest either.

Truth is, Zlatan was 25 when he reached performance levels comparable to Rooney (again, Rooney betters Zlatan's numbers at Juve in 11 separate seasons, so several years off-peak as well). Who was actually the better player at their absolute peak is up for debate. One I won't have with you, because you have genuinely no idea what you're talking about.

It is not perfectly reasonable, it is complete nonsense. Is it a fair assumption? No - absolutely not. I'm stunned you can't see this.

As for me trying to pull "whool" (sic) I knew Zlatan had an incredible, unprecedented record of winning league titles. I thought it extended back to his time to Sweden but it didn't. I didn't care enough to check, fine.

It's not a ridiculous point I'm defending, no, that's what you're doing above with your 3x goals nonsense.

As for biology - you've made that up again. Do you really think nobody is going to notice? Biology might dictate it's hard for 45 year olds to play professional football, not that the peak time for a striker is 9 years. Good lord.

Your pre peak for Zlatan was his time at Juventus (and Ajax). So yes, pre peak and post peak.

I don't think there are many people, even on this site, who would seriously argue Rooney was a better player than Ibrahimovic. It is so clearly not the case.

It appears that any player not starting in the top 5 leagues in Europe will be tarred with this brush going forward.

As for those claiming that I asserted to know more about Swedish second division football than some Swedish poster - that happened only in your head I'm afraid. Not in reality.

 

[Bilo]

Game set match I'll live off this for a long while.

 

[Nilsson]

Non Peak Zlatan won titles with Juventus (the fact they were retracted is irrelevant to his personal achievement).

How did you work that out?

 

[Stevencc]

This better not be over.

 

[SALTIRE]

A St. Juste post is like War and Peace, except it doesn't go anywhere.

 

[Stevencc]

A St. Juste post is like War and Peace, except it doesn't go anywhere.

Prepare yourself for a 10,000 word reply from St. Juste detailing one oddly specific reason why he thinks his posts are nothing like War and Peace.