Rooney returns...

[GodsGift]

Some excellent responses here considering the professionalism of Rooney relative to other top level athletes, his premature decline and the possible cultural or societal reasons that underpin this.

Well played all round.

His grandmother is Scottish, so that would explain it.

 

[St. Juste]

His grandmother is Scottish, so that would explain it.

Irish actually.

But he's not too dissimilar in age to, say, Andy Murray.

Do you think both have demonstrated the same level of professionalism and dedication throughout their respective career?

 

[GodsGift]

Irish actually.

But he's not too dissimilar in age to, say, Andy Murray.

Do you think both have demonstrated the same level of professionalism and dedication throughout their respective career?

Wrong. His grandmother from his mother's side is Scottish and Berti Vogts tried to get him to play for the national team when he was 16. His father's mother is Irish.

And no, probably not. But I'm not pretending to argue he is or has ever been a model pro.

 

[Stevencc]

He obviously gets his taste for booze and low-quality deep-fried foods from his Scottish roots.

Just think what the man could have achieved were he not cursed from birth with such wretched genetics.

A cautionary tale, indeed, to any aspiring sportsman with the same...affliction.

 

[St. Juste]

Wrong. His grandmother from his mother's side is Scottish and Berti Vogts tried to get him to play for the national team when he was 16. His father's mother is Irish.

And no, probably not. But I'm not pretending to argue he is or has ever been a model pro.

I wasn't aware of that, for some reason the Irish connection got far more publicity.

Correct, nobody is debating anything really. Rooney could have been so much more, does anyone wants to theorise why he chose not to?

He obviously gets his taste for booze and low-quality deep-fried foods from his Scottish roots.

Just think what the man could have achieved were he not cursed from birth with such wretched genetics.

A cautionary tale, indeed, to any aspiring sportsman with the same...affliction.

Explaining Rooney's reaction, the German coach beat his chest theatrically and said: "(Rooney told me) 'I am English, I am English!' OK, sorry."

Wayne himself seems to be in no doubt regarding the matter.

For what it's worth, plenty of Scottish footballers have most certainly wasted their talent due to a variety of reasons such as alcoholism, mental health issue, poverty and ignorance. On the model pro / wasters scale Scottish football would not be doing particularly well.

At least it's an issue that can be discussed rather than the response thus far of, to paraphrase, Rooney can't be criticised because he is English.

Is Rooney the problem of is the system the problem? Have any high profile Italian / German / French players really struggled in their early 30s? What are the reasons for this disparity?

 

[Stevencc]

Rooney is dead on his feet because of a number of factors. Attitude, work environment (Premier League "star" from the age of 16, played a staggering amount of minutes very early), diet, genetics, lifestyle etc.

It isn't as simple as continuing your schtick about nationality - besides perhaps criticising the nature of the Premier League.

 

[JimJams]

I mean Egyptians, fuck me they're finished before they've even started.

 

[Renegade]

Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano have the inbuilt Brazilian curse of unprofessionalism. A predisposition to partying. Hard.

 

[Pagnell]

Yeah, in his defence, playing virtually every minute of every game he was fit for from about 17 really hasn't helped his later career. That doesn't happen to most players until their early 20s.

 

[St. Juste]

Rooney is dead on his feet because of a number of factors. Attitude, work environment (Premier League "star" from the age of 16, played a staggering amount of minutes very early), diet, genetics, lifestyle etc.

It isn't as simple as continuing your schtick about nationality - besides perhaps criticising the nature of the Premier League.

I didn't say it was down to his nationality, I rather pondered the hypothesis that this is more likely to happen to English (and British) players relative to those from the continent. There are obviously British players who are very dedicated and have long careers, and the opposite from players from the continent, but is there a general trend in one way or the other?

Antonio Cassano is an example of a continental player with a notoriously poor diet and lifestyle - his career in his 30s isn't exactly sparkling - be interested to hear if anyone else has further examples.

Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano have the inbuilt Brazilian curse of unprofessionalism. A predisposition to partying. Hard.

Absolutely, it's a phenomenon well known and documented in Brazil, and has long roots in the country and its footballing tradition.

I always found it amusing one of the most prominent rebels, Romario, went on to become a prominent (and actually quite effective) Rio Senator.

I wonder if Rooney will become a high profile MP?

Quite a few Brazilian players struggled in their late career - Robinho and Kaka being good recent examples. The former had a mini resurgence in domestic footballer and the latters demise perhaps more to injuries than lifestyles - as a wealthy, evangelical tennis player his biography is a stark contrast to the other Brazilians mentioned.

 

[SALTIRE]

Never heard of this Irish connection with Rooney, I remember hearing about how he could've played for Scotland though. Maybe he'd have been better off playing for us the amount of grief he gets from England fans, as despite him being both England's and Man Utd's top scorer, not many of those sets of supporters appreciate his records there.

As to his size, he'll no doubt try and emulate his hero Neville Southall and become a walking house when he calls it a day.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

The manager under whom Rooney spent most of his career, starting from age 18, was of course Alex Ferguson. Perhaps Rooney could have been managed, educated, guided better when he arrived at that stage? Or perhaps Fergie tried but couldn't get through to him. Guess we'll never know. What's obvious from the record books is that Rooney did play a lot of football from a very early age, much earlier than most. No surprise perhaps he's declined earlier than most.

By any measure Rooney's career has been pretty successful though. Appearances, goals, silverware and yes money.

Yes he could have hit even higher heights and should have maintained his peak level longer into his career. His last couple of lame duck years should have been much more productive than they have been. But heck, none bar the tiniest, tiniest percentage of footballers past or present would be disappointed with his career.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

You said his standards have meant he's regressed worse than Gazza. The only thing he's "guilty" of is not persuing perfection like Ronaldo. That's a fairly massive gap.

An interesting observation.

At one time Rooney and Ronaldo played together in the same team. Some might take the view that one of them left, faced new challenges which meant he had to adapt and improve and became a greater player for it while the other stayed where he was, leaned on his laurels and hoovered up the trophies and the glory that were readily on offer while playing for the biggest and most successful club in his native country.

As a comparison that line of thought might have some merit which would then beg the question; would Rooney have become a better player had he moved abroad and been pushed harder..?

Thoughts on that anybody..?

 

[Nilsson]

"Pretty successful"

He's had a fucking incredible career. Yes he could've looked after himself better but not everybody is Cristiano Ronaldo. Playing full seasons of men's football since the age of 16, his decline was always likely to come sooner than the going rate.

and Man Utd's top scorer, not many of those sets of supporters appreciate his records there.

The vast majority of United fans appreciate his record for us. In fact, I'd say even United fans who don't like him appreciate his overall contribution to the club.

 

[St. Juste]

You said his standards have meant he's regressed worse than Gazza. The only thing he's "guilty" of is not persuing perfection like Ronaldo. That's a fairly massive gap.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier, but the Gascoigne comparison is absolutely apt. Indeed Gascoigne made his move to Everton at age 33, relative to Rooney at age 31, and continued to play in the Premier League at that age. Indeed, what eventually stopped Gascoigne was injury - and he never was the same player following the knee injury he sustained (from a horrendous challenge he committed) in the 1991 FA Cup final.

Time will tell, but I'm not sure Rooneys contribution to football, and the Premier League, in his 30s will differ much if at all than what Gascoigne achieved.

The manager under whom Rooney spent most of his career, starting from age 18, was of course Alex Ferguson. Perhaps Rooney could have been managed, educated, guided better when he arrived at that stage? Or perhaps Fergie tried but couldn't get through to him. Guess we'll never know. What's obvious from the record books is that Rooney did play a lot of football from a very early age, much earlier than most. No surprise perhaps he's declined earlier than most.

By any measure Rooney's career has been pretty successful though. Appearances, goals, silverware and yes money.

Yes he could have hit even higher heights and should have maintained his peak level longer into his career. His last couple of lame duck years should have been much more productive than they have been. But heck, none bar the tiniest, tiniest percentage of footballers past or present would be disappointed with his career.

Well, potentially, but I guess the response would be if not SAF then who? He's regarded as the best manager of all time and was a living legend before Rooney even arrived at the club. With some exceptions, he was able to make the majority of his players into fit, dedicated professionals. Indeed, he raised many players far beyond what they could have achieved - and that might even include Rooney himself.

Nobody is comparing him to some journeyman pro, obviously, but where exactly in the pantheon does he fit? Top 20 United players of the Premier League era? Top 100 players of the Premier League era? Higher?

An interesting observation.

At one time Rooney and Ronaldo played together in the same team. Some might take the view that one of them left, faced new challenges which meant he had to adapt and improve and became a greater player for it while the other stayed where he was, leaned on his laurels and hoovered up the trophies and the glory that were readily on offer while playing for the biggest and most successful club in his native country.

As a comparison that line of thought might have some merit which would then beg the question; would Rooney have become a better player had he moved abroad and been pushed harder..?

Thoughts on that anybody..?

Ronaldo was a better player than Rooney in England as well as abroad.

And Rooney strikes me as someone who would not thrive abroad, for innumerable reasons. More British players should be encouraged to go abroad, but Rooney did the right thing staying.

I would suggest for players to thrive abroad they need to have a certain maturity, and even intelligence, that Rooney clearly does not have.

 

[St. Juste]

"Pretty successful"

He's had a fucking incredible career. Yes he could've looked after himself better but not everybody is Cristiano Ronaldo. Playing full seasons of men's football since the age of 16, his decline was always likely to come sooner than the going rate.

The vast majority of United fans appreciate his record for us. In fact, I'd say even United fans who don't like him appreciate his overall contribution to the club.

Well, obviously, that's not what he is being criticised for. There are very few professionals as dedicated as Ronaldo - Messi isn't - but I would suggest Rooney was less professional than your average Premier League player which is quite disappointing for a record appearance holder / goal scorer / international captain.

I wouldn't be surprised if people like Peter Crouch, Jon Walters and Jermaine Defoe outscore Rooney in his 30s - that's pretty damning.

 

[Nilsson]

Rooney was less professional than your average Premier League player which is quite disappointing for a record appearance holder / goal scorer / international captain.

If you truly believe that Rooney was less professional than the average PL player yet still managed to play 600+ club games, ended up being Manchester United and England's all-time record goalscorer, be an integral member of multiple PL winning teams etc. then how much better do you think he could've been if he applied himself even as well as the average PL player? As good as Pele, Maradonna, Messi?

 

[St. Juste]

Duplicate post.

 

[St. Juste]

If you truly believe that Rooney was less professional than the average PL player yet still managed to play 600+ club games, ended up being Manchester United and England's all-time record goalscorer, be an integral member of multiple PL winning teams etc. then how much better do you think he could've been if he applied himself even as well as the average PL player? As good as Pele, Maradonna, Messi?

It's hard to tell but - no, I don't think he would have ever reached that level.

What he would have done is score a lot more goals, didn't he only hit 20+ league goals in two seasons? Compared with 8 seasons where he managed less than 15? Yes, so he would have done better in that respect. He never hit a consistently excellent run of scoring over several seasons - Kane has managed 20+ league goals in three of three seasons as a regular. Aguero has managed 4 in 6. Tevez managed it in his first two seasons at Man City.

You could say Rooney played a different position, played in a deeper role etc., which is true but this is because he wasn't scoring consistently. Arsenal didn't move Henry to midfield. If you're scoring regular you stay where you are and command primacy as the attacking force in your team. Rooney didn't do this and was shunted around as a result.

He also would still be playing at the highest level at 31, perhaps entering his peak, as many players do.

His lifestyle and professionalism was superior to that of Maradona, as a side note.

 

[Nilsson]

It's hard to tell but - no, I don't think he would have ever reached that level.

What he would have done is score a lot more goals, didn't he only hit 20+ league goals in two seasons? Compared with 8 seasons where he managed less than 15? Yes, so he would have done better in that respect. He never hit a consistently excellent run of scoring over several seasons - Kane has managed 20+ league goals in three of three seasons as a regular. Aguero has managed 4 in 6. Tevez managed it in his first two seasons at Man City.

You could say Rooney played a different position, played in a deeper role etc., which is true but this is because he wasn't scoring consistently. Arsenal didn't move Henry to midfield. If you're scoring regular you stay where you are and command primacy as the attacking force in your team. Rooney didn't do this and was shunted around as a result.

He also would still be playing at the highest level at 31, perhaps entering his peak, as many players do.

His lifestyle and professionalism was superior to that of Maradona, as a side note.

Entering his peak at 31? A guy who started playing PL football every week at 16? I think you were expecting too much from our dear Wayne.

I'm not trying to say he was perfect or should be considered as one of the greatest goalscorers the PL has ever seen (although I'm sure he's content with being United and England's top goalscorers) but I think you're being overly harsh. He was rarely played as a standard number 9 because we had other players who could do that job and his all around game was so good that he was able to play different roles. I wouldn't say playing him as a number 9 got the most out of him anyway. From 2004-2010 he was one of the best players in the world.

And to say he was "less professional than your average Premier League player" is wrong. He could've looked after himself better but most players could, it's not like every team is filled with consummate professionals. And when coaches and players talk about him they say how he always sets an example in training and gives 100%.

 

[Nilsson]

Rio
"He worked tirelessly after training on his shooting, doing it at match pace... none of this slow & chilled out shooting drills that you sometimes see players do - match tempo practice so when it came to games, he has seen them pictures daily on the training pitch & can execute more efficiently. He worked on his free kicks daily & his general ball striking.... None of these records get taken down without all that extra practice & focus so he deserves it all."
https://www.facebook.com/RioFerdinandOfficial/posts/1403619673019277:0

Fergie also saying he'd be one of the players to stay behind in training
"David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney would all stay after training to perfect their free-kicks. They would be religious about spending an extra 30 minutes trying to bend balls past the goalkeeper. That’s why Beckham became a master of taking free-kicks from between 25 and 30 yards from goal and Giggs from between 18 and 23 yards. Rooney was better closer to the penalty box."
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...ps-from-new-book-leading-no7-preparation.aspx

Doesn't really sound like he was "less professional than your average Premier League player"

 

[JaseTheVillain]

The thing that bothers me most about Rooney is wasted potential. As people said, most players aren't as dedicated as Ronaldo, but if Rooney were he'd be as good as him imo. Rooney's best season came the season after Ronaldo left Man United and they didn't miss him in the slightest due to that. He could have carried that form on, but never did due to aforementioned lifestyle choices.

Mostly Rooney frustrates me, if his ability went to a player who had more motivation and dedication they'd be in the top 3 players in the world, as it is, Rooney would maybe come in the top 10 at his absolute best, probably still top 100 or so now.

 

[Smally]

Rooney at 16 looked like he would go on to be one of the best players to have ever played the game. While he's not reached those heights, he's still England and Man Utd's record goal scorers. And still only 31. He's been a truly great player but not quite reached the heights I'd have hoped for.

As to why he hasn't reached those heights, there is no one factor to that. Had he played as a striker all his career things could have been different. But he was so good at doing other things than just scoring goals, Utd could afford to play him in different positions. When he joined United, Van Nistelrooy was the main striker, Rooney playing with him rather than instead of him made more sense. Then over the years United signed the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov, Hernandez and Rooney was able to play well with all of them in different positions and in different systems.

Rooney probably could have looked after himself better, you could say the same for almost every player who ever lived. But to say the average professional looked after themselves better than Rooney is a bit of a stretch. If Rooney wasn't looking after himself then the records he holds would not be his.

To say an attacking player who based a large part of their game around attacking, moving, dribbling and passing with pace, and has had long term injuries, could be approaching their 'peak' years at 31-32 is also quite the stretch. Players who reach their peak at that age tend to be ones less reliant on their physical prowess. Rooney has clearly struggled as his body as been on the wane (Jim Jams joke), and I doubt he will carry on playing until his late 30's, but he certainly has the skills to keep trying to adapt to his new limitations.

 

[Pagnell]

As people said, most players aren't as dedicated as Ronaldo, but if Rooney were he'd be as good as him imo.

Sorry, but no. Purely in terms of natural ability and skill, Ronaldo is on another level to anything Rooney could ever have reached, regardless of how much dedication he'd have had.

 

[Smudge]

Entering his peak at 31? A guy who started playing PL football every week at 16? I think you were expecting too much from our dear Wayne.

I'm not trying to say he was perfect or should be considered as one of the greatest goalscorers the PL has ever seen (although I'm sure he's content with being United and England's top goalscorers) but I think you're being overly harsh. He was rarely played as a standard number 9 because we had other players who could do that job and his all around game was so good that he was able to play different roles. I wouldn't say playing him as a number 9 got the most out of him anyway. From 2004-2010 he was one of the best players in the world.

And to say he was "less professional than your average Premier League player" is wrong. He could've looked after himself better but most players could, it's not like every team is filled with consummate professionals. And when coaches and players talk about him they say how he always sets an example in training and gives 100%.

I think this is fair. I think what people are also neglecting to mention is simply nature. Some people have to work hard at weight, fitness etc. others it just comes naturally. Rooney was always a big lad, even at 16, and thats the way he is. Every player (well, not every single one, but a lot of them) will let loose a bit when they're on holiday, or between games, or when they get time off etc. but some players of certain builds will struggle to then make up for it. Im thinking when we used to have James Beattie and Nuno Valente playing for us, both naturally fat guys, who would come back every pre season the size of a house and probably wouldnt have worked it all off until about September.

People are going on about Rooney's 'lifestyle choices' and comparing him to Gazza are more than a bit over the top. Getting a bit fat on holiday and having a few pints after an England game arent exactly self destructive behaviours on the level of the likes of Paul McGrath, Maradona etc.

And for all these debates, I dont know how anyone can say Rooney hasnt reached any potential. Won every club honour there is with United, broke their scoring record, broke England's scoring record and their most capped outfield player. Short of winning something with England, he really cant have done much more.

 

[Abertawe]

Him going to Las Vegas on the eve of an international tournament and then playing like a Sunday league carthorse was a shambles. It's that sort of thing that prevented him from breaking into the all time elite for me. He's generally been a model pro for the entirety of his career but he can't say he gave it his absolute all but hey he's only human. He's still got many years left at just 31 and I think he'll be determined to prove a point so the story hasn't ended just yet.

 

[Smudge]

Fair comment on the Vegas thing. Though you can blame some of that one some pretty appalling management from Hodgson. He knew full well that Rooney was suspended for the first 2 group games, and was already under pressure not to pick him at all. Any manager with any authority would have given him a regime to make sure he would still be fit when he hadnt played a proper game in so long before that 3rd group game. Rather than no having the bollocks to give strict instructions to his star players, and then blindly defending it when it came back to bite him afterwards. But Hodgson and England is a whole other story. You can make a case for simply dozens of players who havent ever looked quite as impressive for England as they did for their clubs, even players like Lampard and Gerrard who were otherwise pictures of professionalism and fitness.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

I'm not sure he was ever even close to being 100% fit again after we rushed him back to play Bayer Munich in 2010. I think that then playing in the wotld cup over the summer has had wsy more of an impact than has ever been acknowledged.

He still played some sensational football with us and I'd probably argue the back half of 2012 after that city goal was as good a run of form as he or any other United player I've seen has had. But he was never as explosive as he was, his touch became more erratic and he struggled after injuries for more than the average player would.

 

[St. Juste]

Rio
"He worked tirelessly after training on his shooting, doing it at match pace... none of this slow & chilled out shooting drills that you sometimes see players do - match tempo practice so when it came to games, he has seen them pictures daily on the training pitch & can execute more efficiently. He worked on his free kicks daily & his general ball striking.... None of these records get taken down without all that extra practice & focus so he deserves it all."
https://www.facebook.com/RioFerdinandOfficial/posts/1403619673019277:0

Fergie also saying he'd be one of the players to stay behind in training
"David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Cristiano Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney would all stay after training to perfect their free-kicks. They would be religious about spending an extra 30 minutes trying to bend balls past the goalkeeper. That’s why Beckham became a master of taking free-kicks from between 25 and 30 yards from goal and Giggs from between 18 and 23 yards. Rooney was better closer to the penalty box."
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...ps-from-new-book-leading-no7-preparation.aspx

Doesn't really sound like he was "less professional than your average Premier League player"

How many did free kicks did Rooney even score? Also, I've just remembered, Leigh Griffiths practiced free kicks - and scored two of them against England. He's a horrendous professional, even by Scottish football standards. Seems to be slightly improving recently.

The thing that bothers me most about Rooney is wasted potential. As people said, most players aren't as dedicated as Ronaldo, but if Rooney were he'd be as good as him imo. Rooney's best season came the season after Ronaldo left Man United and they didn't miss him in the slightest due to that. He could have carried that form on, but never did due to aforementioned lifestyle choices.

Mostly Rooney frustrates me, if his ability went to a player who had more motivation and dedication they'd be in the top 3 players in the world, as it is, Rooney would maybe come in the top 10 at his absolute best, probably still top 100 or so now.

Ronaldo scored 40 goals in his last season at United, Rooney never managed that. Of course they missed him.

Also, you really think that Man Utd would have sold for a player, for nothing, if he was top 100 in the world currently? He hasn't been near that level for years.

Rooney at 16 looked like he would go on to be one of the best players to have ever played the game. While he's not reached those heights, he's still England and Man Utd's record goal scorers. And still only 31. He's been a truly great player but not quite reached the heights I'd have hoped for.

As to why he hasn't reached those heights, there is no one factor to that. Had he played as a striker all his career things could have been different. But he was so good at doing other things than just scoring goals, Utd could afford to play him in different positions. When he joined United, Van Nistelrooy was the main striker, Rooney playing with him rather than instead of him made more sense. Then over the years United signed the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov, Hernandez and Rooney was able to play well with all of them in different positions and in different systems.

Rooney probably could have looked after himself better, you could say the same for almost every player who ever lived. But to say the average professional looked after themselves better than Rooney is a bit of a stretch. If Rooney wasn't looking after himself then the records he holds would not be his.

To say an attacking player who based a large part of their game around attacking, moving, dribbling and passing with pace, and has had long term injuries, could be approaching their 'peak' years at 31-32 is also quite the stretch. Players who reach their peak at that age tend to be ones less reliant on their physical prowess. Rooney has clearly struggled as his body as been on the wane (Jim Jams joke), and I doubt he will carry on playing until his late 30's, but he certainly has the skills to keep trying to adapt to his new limitations.

That's just hyperbole I'm afraid - at no point did he ever look as good as Mbappe does currently (who is, admittedly, two years older).

As for the second paragraph - as I've outlined before, if a striker is scoring consistently you will play him in a primary attacking position. Many top forwards would be good at other things, but you wouldn't move them away to accommodate other strikers unless they were going to score more.If Rooney was a player of the goalscoring calibre of, say, Henry, he would never have been moved to accomodate players like Hernandez, Tevez, Berbatov (themselves good, not great, strikers).

I don't think the average professional in the Premier League smokes, drinks, eat curry and visits McDonalds on the off season. I could be wrong on that, though. Most of these players won't have been anywhere near as good as Rooney ability wise, or reptuation wise, and absolutely have to look after themselves better. Lesser players wouldn't have got away with a lifestyle Rooney did and be able to sustain a career in the Premier League. I can't imagine someone like Glenn Whelan coming back from off season badly overweight.

As for your final paragraph - look around, Ronaldo, Messi and Ibrahimovic all attacking players reaching their peak around that time. Drogba was an excellent player in his early 30s, RVP had his best seasons around that time too. Rooney has been badly on the wane for several years now, the above (and many others) were getting better. Come to think of it, It's when the likes of Henry and Larsson went to Barcelona - Shearer was having some of the best seasons of his career. There are countless attacking players, many of whom relied on physicality more than Rooney, entering their peak at this time.

 

[JimJams]

The number of strikers hitting their peak after the age of 30 would be drastically outnumbered by those that hit it before.
Not to mention the number of them that have been playing solidly since 16.
Injuries see off shit loads before the 30 mark.