Scotland v England, World Cup Qualifying 10th June 17:00

[St. Juste]

To be fair, confusing Holland with the Netherlands is a very common mistake, especially in this country, where the 2 names have become (wrongly) pretty interchangeable.

Once perhaps, not twice - especially when I kept referring to the Netherlands. He even googled it!

Interestingly, I have many Dutch colleagues and none have an issue with them being used interchangeably - it's an Anglicised thing rather than just UK I think. It's like referring to the whole of the UK as Yorkshire.

 

[4froale]

Terrible game of football bar the last ten minutes. You could see that Scotland wanted it far more than ourselves but overall they were dogshit. For how poor we were, we had the better chances.

I said to my mate that I had a bad feeling when griffiths lined up the first free kick. Harts positioning was terrible on both.

Also on to Harry Kane. I like him, but he doesn't half miss some chances.

 

[Luke_1884]

Also on to Harry Kane. I like him, but he doesn't half miss some chances.

He doesn't half take some chances too, no?

 

[Stagat]

Yesterday morning i found out that i was going to be both a father and an uncle for the first time

Bit weird.

 

[Furry Beaver]

Bit weird.

You wouldn't be saying that if you saw how attractive my sister was.

 

[Stagat]

You wouldn't be saying that if you saw how attractive my sister was.

Well played.

Congratulations on the news btw.

 

[Leo]

The Jimmy Saville chant first started from Rangers fans singing it towards Celtic fans in relation to their paedophilia scandal years ago, they also started singing it towards Hibs supporters in recent clashes which is rather bizarre considering Hibs don't have any sort of history of paedophilia, i think Rangers fans just like accusing other sets of supporters of foul practices as they are a shower of utter low life scumbags.

Oh don't start with the we are holier than thou shite. Hibs as has any other team has an element of utter lowlife scumbags and to condemn ALL Rangers fans of being of that ilk is a pretty idiotic and pathetic comment. You obviously have difficulty in recalling offensive chants directed at Rangers by numerous other fans. You 'just think' Rangers fans like...blah, blah ? Get facts before you open your mouth son!

As for Rangers fans chanting anything about Savile at Celtic & Hibs I was not aware of that, have NEVER had it mentioned to me by ANY Celtic or Hibs fans that I know but if infact it is true then I would utterly condemn these arseholes as I did the moronic Scotland fans for Saturday!

 

[Leo]

No other national anthems are booed by Scotland so I don't know what history you are referring to.

A c& p.....

Scottish FA sorry after fans boo Liechtenstein national anthem
Scottish Football Association acting chief executive George Peat has described last night's jeering of the Liechtenstein national anthem as "disgraceful" and issued a public apology.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Where exactly the line is drawn between acceptable acts of football pantomime rivalry, and what becomes unacceptable and offensive, is hard to distinguish. Everyone's going to have their own personal views on where that line is drawn, and you're always going to have a few who take things too far. It's also a moving target as attitudes change over time.

For an example I can give from personal experience, 15-20 years ago chants that would now be considered homophobic and well out of order were unfortunately commonplace when Bournemouth played Brighton. I ashamedly daresay I joined in being an immature stupid teenager at the time. Whereas next season when the two clubs meet again. there will likely be a few that start such a chant, only for it to be cut off by the majority as the majority attitude now rightly deems it as unacceptable.

I have no problem anyone booing GSTQ and I hope nobody in Scotland or Germany takes offense if 'we' (by which I mean England fans) boo Flower of Scotland or Deutschlandlied - as no harm is intended. As Dirk has suggested already, Germany games do tend to bring out the worst in us English, more so than Scotland I think.

 

[St. Juste]

A c& p.....

Scottish FA sorry after fans boo Liechtenstein national anthem
Scottish Football Association acting chief executive George Peat has described last night's jeering of the Liechtenstein national anthem as "disgraceful" and issued a public apology.

Lichtensteins national anthem is GSTQ which is why it is booed. No other reason, simply the origin of the song.

George Peat is an idiot and I am 90% certain he will not know the origins of the song.

So Scotland will, correctly, boo GSTQ regardless of which country sings it - because the song was written to counter what was, somewhat incorrectly, seen as a Scottish invasion of England.

Where exactly the line is drawn between acceptable acts of football pantomime rivalry, and what becomes unacceptable and offensive, is hard to distinguish. Everyone's going to have their own personal views on where that line is drawn, and you're always going to have a few who take things too far. It's also a moving target as attitudes change over time.

For an example I can give from personal experience, 15-20 years ago chants that would now be considered homophobic and well out of order were unfortunately commonplace when Bournemouth played Brighton. I ashamedly daresay I joined in being an immature stupid teenager at the time. Whereas next season when the two clubs meet again. there will likely be a few that start such a chant, only for it to be cut off by the majority as the majority attitude now rightly deems it as unacceptable.

I have no problem anyone booing GSTQ and I hope nobody in Scotland or Germany takes offense if 'we' (by which I mean England fans) boo Flower of Scotland or Deutschlandlied - as no harm is intended. As Dirk has suggested already, Germany games do tend to bring out the worst in us English, more so than Scotland I think.

I can see no reason why England fans would have any issue with Deutschlandlied. And in general I am completely opposed to boo'ing national anthem unless the content of the song directly refers to the nation boo'ing (as GSTQ did, and FOS does).

You are correct in that footballing attitudes have changed markedly, for the better, in recent years. It wouldn't surprise me if the future sees pretty much all swearing and negative chants taken out of the game at the highest level due to the changing demographic of the support. Whether that is a good thing or not is up for debate.

 

[Dirk]

Lichtensteins national anthem is GSTQ which is why it is booed. No other reason, simply the origin of the song.

The melody but not the text, this is originally "Oben am deutschen Rhein" (above the german rhine) (later they replaced the "deutschen" with "jungen (young)" .

Edit: The melody was even used in the German Kaiserreich "Heil dir im Siegerkranz" (Hail to Thee in Victor's Crown) also derived from GSTQ

Now I know why the English booed the Deutschlandlied because we once had a GSTQ similar hymn and replaced it after the Kaiserreich because it wasn't that popular?
just saying

btw: It's Liechtenstein

 

[Leo]

Lichtensteins national anthem is GSTQ which is why it is booed. No other reason, simply the origin of the song.

George Peat is an idiot and I am 90% certain he will not know the origins of the song.

So Scotland will, correctly, boo GSTQ regardless of which country sings it - because the song was written to counter what was, somewhat incorrectly, seen as a Scottish invasion of England.



Lichtenstein's national Anthem is not God Save the Queen....It is called 'Obem an jungen Rhein'. The only tie it has is that for some reason it has the same tune although there is no tie between Britain & Lichtenstein. Other countries have also used the tune. I don't know the lyrics to the anthem but I'd be mightily sure that there would be no words in that could upset the delicate 'tartan army' who obviously decided on that occasion to disrespect Lichtenstein ffs because of the tune? Your statement that Scots will correctly boo GSTQ regardless of which country sings is in line with the usual nonsense you spout. It was NOT God save the Queen that was being played.

 

[St. Juste]

Yes, it looks like it was just booed because of the tune and because people (incorrectly) associated it with GTSQ.

So, yes, it shouldn't have been booed.

England and NI renditions most certainly should be.

Glad we cleared that up.

 

[Leo]

Yes, it looks like it was just booed because of the tune and because people (incorrectly) associated it with GTSQ.

So, yes, it shouldn't have been booed.

England and NI renditions most certainly should be.

Glad we cleared that up.

Agree with your first two comments.

However I disagree with your comment about England & Northern Ireland. You and others see no problem with booing a National Anthem...I believe it is disrespectful irrespective of the country. Difference of opinions...c'est la vie....we won't agree.

 

[SALTIRE]

The tune is Jacobean as well. Another thing they nicked off us anyway. Mind you the way it's composed it's dull as dishwater. I don't even think any English men like their anthem either, it could do with getting modernised.

 

[St. Juste]

Agree with your first two comments.

However I disagree with your comment about England & Northern Ireland. You and others see no problem with booing a National Anthem...I believe it is disrespectful irrespective of the country. Difference of opinions...c'est la vie....we won't agree.

The original song contained a verse that referred to "crushing rebellious Scots". It was written in response to the Jacobean invasion of England - which wasn't really a Scotland England conflict anyway. They were saving the King from what they perceived to be a Scottish invasion. It always will, and should be, booed in Scotland.

Irrespective of that, as a republican it's a ludicrous national anthem and should be booed at every available opportunity.

 

[Dirk]

The original song contained a verse that referred to "crushing rebellious Scots". It was written in response to the Jacobean invasion of England - which wasn't really a Scotland England conflict anyway. They were saving the King from what they perceived to be a Scottish invasion. It always will, and should be, booed in Scotland.

Irrespective of that, as a republican it's a ludicrous national anthem and should be booed at every available opportunity.

Maybe the Netherlands (not only the province Holland ) should boo at their own hym "Het Wilhelmus (Der Wilhelm)" about Wilhelm von Oranien-Nassau (William of Orange) because it has the strophe "bin ich von deutschen Blut ( I am of german blood)" . Was written in the Middle ages and is the oldest national anthem after all.
Some of these texts in the National anthems are really "outdated" to say the least and historically "handicapped" like the first 2 strophes of the German Deutschlandlied which were badly misinterpreted by the Nazis and are now forbidden, only the third strophe is allowed. It was originally a freedom-text written in the 1840's during the revolution and is about the love for a united Germany but the Nazis misused the real meaning with purpose. Anyway as I said earlier I hate it when foreign national anthems are booed and I am with Leo here.

 

[Leo]

The original song contained a verse that referred to "crushing rebellious Scots". It was written in response to the Jacobean invasion of England - which wasn't really a Scotland England conflict anyway. They were saving the King from what they perceived to be a Scottish invasion. It always will, and should be, booed in Scotland.

Irrespective of that, as a republican it's a ludicrous national anthem and should be booed at every available opportunity.

Oh I realise that it will be booed but I don't accept that it should be. It is imo a mark of disrespect. It is after all the National Anthem of the UK which includes Scotland but the 'See you Jimmy' brigade prefer Flower of Scotland....their prerogative.

 

[Leo]

The tune is Jacobean as well. Another thing they nicked off us anyway. Mind you the way it's composed it's dull as dishwater. I don't even think any English men like their anthem either, it could do with getting modernised.

Love Jerusalem.....

 

[SALTIRE]

Oh I realise that it will be booed but I don't accept that it should be. It is imo a mark of disrespect. It is after all the National Anthem of the UK which includes Scotland but the 'See you Jimmy' brigade prefer Flower of Scotland....their prerogative.

I like Flower (gotta love The Corries), but I'd rather go back to Scots Wha' Hae - it's more brutal, but far more stirring and passionate.

 

[SALTIRE]

The original song contained a verse that referred to "crushing rebellious Scots". It was written in response to the Jacobean invasion of England - which wasn't really a Scotland England conflict anyway. They were saving the King from what they perceived to be a Scottish invasion. It always will, and should be, booed in Scotland.

Irrespective of that, as a republican it's a ludicrous national anthem and should be booed at every available opportunity.

Aye as I said they nicked the tune, rewrote it as a patriotic piece with anti-Scottish tones (probably understandable with the conflicts going on around then) and used it for propaganda, much like Rule Britannia (the original by Arne is a belting tune though even I have to admit); and it stuck with that line taken out when things settled down.

 

[Furry Beaver]

Oh don't start with the we are holier than thou shite. Hibs as has any other team has an element of utter lowlife scumbags and to condemn ALL Rangers fans of being of that ilk is a pretty idiotic and pathetic comment. You obviously have difficulty in recalling offensive chants directed at Rangers by numerous other fans. You 'just think' Rangers fans like...blah, blah ? Get facts before you open your mouth son!

As for Rangers fans chanting anything about Savile at Celtic & Hibs I was not aware of that, have NEVER had it mentioned to me by ANY Celtic or Hibs fans that I know but if infact it is true then I would utterly condemn these arseholes as I did the moronic Scotland fans for Saturday!

I didn't condemn all Rangers fans for it though, just the vocal ones that make themselves seen on social media and heard at the games, they always sing the Jimmy Saville chant towards Hibs games and at Celtic games, if you watch the Mouse Dembele goal v Rangers at Hampden in the league cup semi you can hear their supporters sing it quite clearly just before the ball goes in. Ask any Celtic fan about it if you want and they will tell you they sing it to them all the time.

I didn't want the Scottish fans singing it towards the English support, it is an utterly dreadful chant and Jimmy Saville spent a good lot of his life in Scotland anyway.

 

[St. Juste]

Oh I realise that it will be booed but I don't accept that it should be. It is imo a mark of disrespect. It is after all the National Anthem of the UK which includes Scotland but the 'See you Jimmy' brigade prefer Flower of Scotland....their prerogative.

It's far more disrespectful that the current UK anthem was written in response to a supposed invasion by one of its constituent nations. It's absolutely outrageous and there's no chance it would have survived were the sides opposite.

FOS is also not a particularly good anthem, but there's nothing "See you Jimmy" - classic Scottish cringe term - about opposing an anthem that literally encouraged killing Scottish people.

Aye as I said they nicked the tune, rewrote it as a patriotic piece with anti-Scottish tones (probably understandable with the conflicts going on around then) and used it for propaganda, much like Rule Britannia (the original by Arne is a belting tune though even I have to admit); and it stuck with that line taken out when things settled down.

Not really, this is another problem, the Jacobean rebellion was not a Scottish English conflict. Most people in Scotland opposed the Jacobites, it was a Catholic army in a ferociously Protestant nation. Most of the Government - Jacobite battles involved plenty of Scottish troops on both sides.

But despite this the song does not make the distinction, it's as incorrect as it is offensive.

 

[DJM99]

For me we really picked up when Ox came on. He really bought a lot of energy for me that we lacked without him. Livermore and Dier aren't midfielders who enjoy getting forward so they don't contribute to attack. For me, if used correctly Ox could become a very good box to box midfielder that we lack at the moment.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

 

[Leo]

It's far more disrespectful that the current UK anthem was written in response to a supposed invasion by one of its constituent nations. It's absolutely outrageous and there's no chance it would have survived were the sides opposite.

FOS is also not a particularly good anthem, but there's nothing "See you Jimmy" - classic Scottish cringe term - about opposing an anthem that literally encouraged killing Scottish people.

'Absolutely outrageous'....away and give me peace............ I need no history lesson justy lad.

You are correct re your comment about 'See You Jimmy'....That's why I used it. You will be aware of course that the last verse has not been sung for God knows how many years and has been dropped. Still, best to hold a grudge.....

 

[St. Juste]

'Absolutely outrageous'....away and give me peace............ I need no history lesson justy lad.

You are correct re your comment about 'See You Jimmy'....That's why I used it. You will be aware of course that the last verse has not been sung for God knows how many years and has been dropped. Still, best to hold a grudge.....

Can't see a song about killing English people becoming the UK national anthem. The fact the verse was dropped is not even remotely relevant, the original intent of the song is clear.

I know it's a very Rangers thing, but how much would you have to hate yourself to sing about killing people from the country you're from?

Indeed, the only club who would even countenance singing such a song is Rangers - it's part of the reason why proportionally few Scotland fans come from either Rangers or Celtic. They are far too obsessed with England and Ireland for that.

 

[Leo]

I didn't condemn all Rangers fans for it though, just the vocal ones that make themselves seen on social media and heard at the games, they always sing the Jimmy Saville chant towards Hibs games and at Celtic games, if you watch the Mouse Dembele goal v Rangers at Hampden in the league cup semi you can hear their supporters sing it quite clearly just before the ball goes in. Ask any Celtic fan about it if you want and they will tell you they sing it to them all the time.

I didn't want the Scottish fans singing it towards the English support, it is an utterly dreadful chant and Jimmy Saville spent a good lot of his life in Scotland anyway.

Oh I must have missed the part in your post to which I referred where you particularized 'just the vocal ones'....just checked and I didn't. However I'll accept that is what you meant. Tbh I hear the tune of 'he's one of our/your own' sung by almost every support in televised games and it is very rarely that I actually distinguish who the fans are actually singing about. That being that I have no reason to doubt what you say about it being sung & as I said previously I absolutely condemn those who do indulge Rangers fans or not! Having said that, and to avoid being accused of 'whataboutery', I won't go into detail about vile songs/chants sung towards Rangers over the years. All clubs have an element of scum who follow the team.

 

[Leo]

Can't see a song about killing English people becoming the UK national anthem. The fact the verse was dropped is not even remotely relevant, the original intent of the song is clear.

I know it's a very Rangers thing, but how much would you have to hate yourself to sing about killing people from the country you're from?

Indeed, the only club who would even countenance singing such a song is Rangers - it's part of the reason why proportionally few Scotland fans come from either Rangers or Celtic. They are far too obsessed with England and Ireland for that.

Of course it is relevant....You must still live in the past ffs.....times move onwards and attitudes change, they certainly have since way back when. But best to hold a grudge....

Yeah, Rangers fans sing it....the first verse only and I'd wager that none of them even contemplate the verse you yawningly gibber on about or even know that it existed. Your assumption that to sing it asks the question that you posed is idiotic in the extreme.

Rangers fans obsessed with England...oh ffs. I went to see them home and away for over 40 years and I met one, yes one Rangers fan who had a leaning towards the England national football team. You live in your own wee planet where everything you read and hear must be fact. You have no idea justy. And to sing the National Anthem does NOT make Rangers supporters ant Scottish or pro English.

 

[St. Juste]

Oh I must have missed the part in your post to which I referred where you particularized 'just the vocal ones'....just checked and I didn't. However I'll accept that is what you meant. Tbh I hear the tune of 'he's one of our/your own' sung by almost every support in televised games and it is very rarely that I actually distinguish who the fans are actually singing about. That being that I have no reason to doubt what you say about it being sung & as I said previously I absolutely condemn those who do indulge Rangers fans or not! Having said that, and to avoid being accused of 'whataboutery', I won't go into detail about vile songs/chants sung towards Rangers over the years. All clubs have an element of scum who follow the team.

Correct, and Rangers and Celtic have comparatively more. This isn't news to anyone who lives in Scotland.

Of course it is relevant....You must still live in the past ffs.....times move onwards and attitudes change, they certainly have since way back when. But best to hold a grudge....

Yeah, Rangers fans sing it....the first verse only and I'd wager that none of them even contemplate the verse you yawningly gibber on about or even know that it existed. Your assumption that to sing it asks the question that you posed is idiotic in the extreme.

Rangers fans obsessed with England...oh ffs. I went to see them home and away for over 40 years and I met one, yes one Rangers fan who had a leaning towards the England national football team. You live in your own wee planet where everything you read and hear must be fact. You have no idea justy. And to sing the National Anthem does NOT make Rangers supporters ant Scottish or pro English.

Quite to the contrary, given the attitudes towards religion in this country I'd say singing GSTQ is the very definition of living in the past. Asking a deity people no longer worship to save a figurehead of an irrelevant medieval institution from a Scottish invasion - you genuinely couldn't make it up.

I imagine very few Rangers fans know about the existence of the other verse because they are ignorant fools. Again, not news to anyone who lives in Scotland. To know about it, and still sing it, demonstrates rather pitiful self loathing.

Er, really? Despite the fact that English flags are displayed at Ibrox on a regular basis and there are Rangers supporters clubs in England? It is the English team in Scotland - very much like Celtic are the Irish team. To reiterate you will find very few Old Firm fans supporting Scotland, but it's somewhat amusing to see them accuse someone else of living in the past. You should tell the people flying those 'Battle of the Boyne' banners at your club, every week.

 

[Leo]

Correct, and Rangers and Celtic have comparatively more. This isn't news to anyone who lives in Scotland.

Of course isn't news. However you, as usual, miss the point entirely as to why I mentioned this...Duh!