SCOTTISH INDY REF 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

[Captain Scumbag]

Face it ladz, Scotcheggsit's happening

Liked because I will always, even in the midst of an existential and constitutional crisis, tip my hat to world class food-based punnery when I see it. Certain standards should be maintained no matter what.

 

[Leo]

That small majority of MSPs (SNP + Green) were democratically elected. Does that not suffice? If not, why not?

How else does the electorate signal its desire to have a referendum? Abertawe’s “referendum on whether to have a referendum” idea? Reliance on polling techniques that everyone knows can be very unreliable? Not sure what you have in mind here./QUOTE]

If we go along with what you say re them being democratically elected then they 'could', if that status quo remained, continue to apply to have 'once in a generation' referendums whenever the notion took them if the Leave camp are defeated. How does the electorate signal its desire to have a referendum? Not sure there is a simplistic answer to that one save the numerous polls that are undertaken from sections of the public, also MP's and MSP's meetings with their constituents & public community meetings would, to a degree, give them an indication as to how the land is lying. No doubt there are other avenues where feelings would be expressed ie the media?

The main problem I have is how often are we going to have to undergo this tedious procedure simply to satisfy Nationalists which, imo, is not truly an 'Independence' referendum as Sturgeon's aim is to leave the UK and join (having to apply first) a European Union.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

If we go along with what you say re them being democratically elected then they 'could', if that status quo remained, continue to apply to have 'once in a generation' referendums whenever the notion took them if the Leave camp are defeated.

I think that’s just a regrettable consequence of devolution. It created a Scottish demos. It provided a political system through which an exclusively Scottish voice could be articulated on any issue, including non-devolved ones.

Back in the late 1990s Labour and the Lib Dems didn’t care because they assumed they would dominate the new political scene. They did at first, but they didn’t anticipate the Nationalists taking it over (in less than a decade!) and using it to chip, chip away for independence. But we are where we are. There is no appetite to undo devolution, so we have to make the best of it.

Scots are like any other people insofar that they resent being asked the same question over and over. The SNP can’t do that without damaging themselves politically. Normally it would be political suicide to push for a second referendum 2-3 years after the last one. In this case, however, I think we ought to acknowledge the unusualness of present day circumstances. Brexit – or the prospect of it, at least – has changed the political landscape. It’s dishonest to pretend otherwise.

If a clear majority in the Scottish Parliament favours independence and passes legislation formally appealing for one, the UK government should ALWAYS take that seriously. It needs very good reasons to deny it because the SNP will always make political hay out of the idea that the evil Sassenachs are denying the democratic will of the plucky Scots. The best you can hope for is damage limitation.

In this case I think the government has good reasons for rejecting the SNP’s proposed timetable but not the idea of a second referendum itself.

The main problem I have is how often are we going to have to undergo this tedious procedure simply to satisfy Nationalists which, imo, is not truly an 'Independence' referendum as Sturgeon's aim is to leave the UK and join (having to apply first) a European Union.

What if she ditches the messy business of re-joining the EU and instead pursues some kind of EFTA/EEA option?

 

[Leo]

. 1) In this case, however, I think we ought to acknowledge the unusualness of present day circumstances. Brexie prospect of it, at least – has changed the political landscape. It’s dishonest to pretend otherwise.

2) It needs very good reasons to deny it because the SNP will always make political hay out of the idea that the evil Sassenachs are denying the democratic will of the plucky Scots.

3) In this case I think the government has good reasons for rejecting the SNP’s proposed timetable but not the idea of a second referendum itself.

4) What if she ditches the messy business of re-joining the EU and instead pursues some kind of EFTA/EEA option?

1) I wouldn't pretend that a change has hit us however there has been a growing swell about dislike/distrust in the EU for many years and it was announced in 2013 that if the Conservatives won the 2015 election then an EU in/out referendum would be held. The SNP were obviously aware of this prior to the Scottish Independence referendum so have they simply arrogantly ignored the fact that there was 'always' a chance that the UK would vote to leave. Or were they so sure that to leave the EU would never happen ?

2) Yes....spot on there

3) We'll have to disagree on that point mate.

4) I'm going to leave that question hanging at the moment because as far as I am aware (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that to pursue that course of action would again be dependent upon Scotland being given permission to hold a second Independence referendum and succeeding in becoming Independent, a scenario that is not guaranteed.

 

[Alty]

Mundell is hardly inspiring but Davidson is bloody good, isn't she?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39293513

I think we can safely say that's a polite "fuck off" in response to the referendum demand. Good.

 

[smat]

I know pointing out contradictions in EU/Scotland rhetoric is witless and all, but nevertheless: May - "we should be working together, not pulling apart".

 

[.V.]

Mundell is hardly inspiring but Davidson is bloody good, isn't she?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39293513

I think we can safely say that's a polite "fuck off" in response to the referendum demand. Good.

It's a constant source of annoyance that Davidson comes across so well. Oh for a Labour equivalent.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

It was announced in 2013 that if the Conservatives won the 2015 election then an EU in/out referendum would be held. The SNP were obviously aware of this prior to the Scottish Independence referendum so have they simply arrogantly ignored the fact that there was 'always' a chance that the UK would vote to leave. Or were they so sure that to leave the EU would never happen?

There's a difference between Brexit being possible (as it was in 2014) and the UK government being committed to Brexit and having a precise timetable in place (as it does now). The political landscape has changed. Something that was merely possible has become reality.

And, on a basic point of principle, why does there have to be ANY significant change of circumstance? Why isn’t a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament enough? I think that question remains unanswered.

Anyway, it appears Mrs May has read the thread and heeded my sagacious advice. Hard to see what could possibly go wrong from this point, so let's all relax and enjoy this video of Ruth Davidson taking a penalty.

 

[Laker]

I think May has got it right as Scotland can only decide whether independence is right for them once they know the UK's deal post Brexit. That's rational, logical etc.

But it should happen in 2020 or whatever and I do hope they go. Their culture is very different to the rest of the UK and they have a very strong feeling they can do it better than us. So they should back their character to do it. Plus the rest of the UK will do fine without them thank you.

 

[smat]

You don't save those.

 

[Leo]

I think May has got it right as Scotland can only decide whether independence is right for them once they know the UK's deal post Brexit. That's rational, logical etc.

But it should happen in 2020 or whatever and I do hope they go. Their culture is very different to the rest of the UK and they have a very strong feeling they can do it better than us. So they should back their character to do it. Plus the rest of the UK will do fine without them thank you.

In what respect mate ? The only people who believe that 'they can do it better than us' are deluded nationalists. There is a majority who detach themselves from a Nationalist character.....that being that we do not require another referendum. Your final comment simply plays into the hands of Scottish nationalists without giving any consideration that there is a majority of people up here who wish the status quo to remain.

 

[Leo]

There's a difference between Brexit being possible (as it was in 2014) and the UK government being committed to Brexit and having a precise timetable in place (as it does now). The political landscape has changed. Something that was merely possible has become reality.

And, on a basic point of principle, why does there have to be ANY significant change of circumstance? Why isn’t a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament enough? I think that question remains unanswered.

Anyway, it appears Mrs May has read the thread and heeded my sagacious advice. Hard to see what could possibly go wrong from this point, so let's all relax and enjoy this video of Ruth Davidson taking a penalty.

I would only disagree on your second point. My answer to that would be clearly that 'that' would not be democratic if it ignored the feeling of the Scottish electorate which it clearly would. As I mentioned previously if that were to be the case then an SNP/Green majority could pursue an independence route at their will?

Got to say that was a corker of a penalty by Ruthie baby.....

PS....I'm very relaxed.....

 

[Alty]

The Scots, or more specifically Scottish political culture, really isn't THAT different to the rest of the UK. That's the yarn the SNP have been spinning but if you look at social attitude surveys and adjust for the peculiarities of current circumstances it's clear Scotland isn't all that different and certainly doesn't 'need' independence.

 

[Laker]

Leo, I'm trying to quote you but my phone has decided it doesn't want to so ho hum.

My post was s bit rash - the "they" in "they can do it better than us" is a bit sweeping - I mean to say I sense there are a larger number of Scots than other UK nationals who feel they can do better alone, which is a feeling backed up by the SNP's strength where other national parties don't really get a look in elsewhere. But you're right, my post does ignore the large number of Scots who don't feel that way which is poor - apologies.

I guess your comment about my throwaway last line is the response from a Scottish Unionist perspective. I think most of the rest of the UK would like the union to stay together but are quite tired/fed up with the Scots' independence discussion and my comment is a bit of a "fuck it, go on your own there - see if I care" type attitude which is immature and irresponsible, yes, but just a tired and bored response. We do care but there's other things in the world worth worrying about too but it seems from the outside that independence is the only issue on the table in Scotland.

I want the union to stay together for tradition/togetherness etc but there's also a part of me that also just wants to see Sturgeon and the SNP fail. Again irresponsible, but that's the sort of person she drags out of me these days. But if Scotland went it's own way, I wouldn't lose any sleep and I'm sure Scotland and the RUK would both become prosperous nations in their own right.

 

[silkyman]

Liked because I will always, even in the midst of an existential and constitutional crisis, tip my hat to world class food-based punnery when I see it. Certain standards should be maintained no matter what.

Scotcheggsit should be the official name for everything.

 

[Leo]

Leo, I'm trying to quote you but my phone has decided it doesn't want to so ho hum.

My post was s bit rash - the "they" in "they can do it better than us" is a bit sweeping - I mean to say I sense there are a larger number of Scots than other UK nationals who feel they can do better alone, which is a feeling backed up by the SNP's strength where other national parties don't really get a look in elsewhere. But you're right, my post does ignore the large number of Scots who don't feel that way which is poor - apologies.

I guess your comment about my throwaway last line is the response from a Scottish Unionist perspective. I think most of the rest of the UK would like the union to stay together but are quite tired/fed up with the Scots' independence discussion and my comment is a bit of a "fuck it, go on your own there - see if I care" type attitude which is immature and irresponsible, yes, but just a tired and bored response. We do care but there's other things in the world worth worrying about too but it seems from the outside that independence is the only issue on the table in Scotland.

I want the union to stay together for tradition/togetherness etc but there's also a part of me that also just wants to see Sturgeon and the SNP fail. Again irresponsible, but that's the sort of person she drags out of me these days. But if Scotland went it's own way, I wouldn't lose any sleep and I'm sure Scotland and the RUK would both become prosperous nations in their own right.

Good reply Laker. I can truly understand why folks outside Scotland are pissed off with the continual utterances which spew out from the SNP regards independence and also why yourself and others are bored listening to it. You are correct that independence is the only issue on the minds of politicians up here, moreso the SNP especially with social problems that really should be getting addressed. The unfortunate thing is that the SNP's constant banging the independence drum tends to overshadow us in the 'Remain' camp who believe me are totally as pissed off with it as people outwith Scotland. For example my wife who voted to leave in 2014 has now become totally disgusted with the SNP and would, if a 2nd referendum takes place, vote to remain.

PS.....hope your phone comes back from the death....

 

[smat]

Spain would not veto an independent Scotland's application to join the EU

Game of 3D-ass chess being played.

 

[Laker]

Spain would not veto an independent Scotland's application to join the EU

Game of 3D-ass chess being played.

I'm quite a fan of Spain's stance here. Maybe they'd like to acknowledge Catalonia's referendum result first....

 

[Leo]

There will be NO independent Scotland even if they were permitted to have their 2nd 'once in a lifetime/generation' referendum & by some miracle win....It is a SEPARATION that the SNP want because they visualise being rid of the nasty English then applying to join another UNION....Independent ? My arse!

 

[johnnytodd]

i'd love to shoot Salty with an arrow from Hadrians wall , right in the eye so he couldn't watch the TV

 

[Leo]

i'd love to shoot Salty with an arrow from Hadrians wall , right in the eye so he couldn't watch the TV

sorry to disappoint you Johnny me old mucka....but he has two.....