Should the UK re-instate the death penalty?

[HertsWolf]

We were a more tolerant, more welcoming, more inclusive society back in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s at a time when serious crime rates were far higher, we faced ongoing bombing campaigns and everyone was less wealthy. In those days, people could make foolish mistakes and errors without invoking mass hysteria, public trial by (anti)social media and judgement by people who can barely tie up shoelaces but are burning through the accrued capital value of their houses.

Yet now, in our generally quieter and wealthier times - notwithstanding the attempts of religious extremists and extremist politicians to hijack our growth - we find it impossible to forgive and impossible to see justice other than in terms of locking them up and throwing away the key, or just euthanising them. Justice and incarceration is about rehabilitation and reintegration, not about revenge and retribution.

I'd like some of you - those with such hardened, intolerant, unforgiving views - to spend a few weeks in a slum in India or South Africa and see how, despite it all, many in far worse socio-economic conditions, most have a brighter, more positive, more forgiving, friendlier attitude to all around them.

 

[Alty]

We were a more tolerant, more welcoming, more inclusive society back in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s

When Britain was an overtly racist and homophobic place? And when there was genuine animosity between social classes?

It used to be conservatives that were instinctively pessimistic. But we seem to have moved into a new era in which no matter how much progress is made on anything there'll be some crackpot liberal insisting the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

[HertsWolf]

When Britain was an overtly racist and homophobic place? And when there was genuine animosity between social classes?
It used to be conservatives that were instinctively pessimistic. But we seem to have moved into a new era in which no matter how much progress is made on anything there'll be some crackpot liberal insisting the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

Eh? Who is pessimistic? It was certainly more homophobic, and the positive changes in that area are much welcomed. I would also suggest that while London and big cities are less racist now, I'm not sure that's the case away from the biggest cities where racism is till alive and kicking. There is still massive animosity between classes - especially when you consider those who 'have' and those who don't 'have'.

I referred to quieter and wealthier times in which we now live and compared that with a time (then) of higher crime rates and more overt terrorism, yet it was in those days that we slowly abolished capital punishment. One doesn't have to have either a pessimistic or an optimistic view of society at any given time in order to be able to commentate on one aspect. I frequently point out that we live in very good times, and I find it odd that there are some areas where we appear to have reverted despite that wealth and better life: our views on crime and punishment are one of those areas.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

You must also remember that during those times, Herts that there wasn't half as much news reported across social media/papers. Everyone loves a bad news story as it gets readers, and 'likes' across all platforms. But at that same time, the more publicised version of things will inevitably lead to more pessimism across the public. Swings and roundabouts mate.

 

[Aber gas]

When Britain was an overtly racist and homophobic place? And when there was genuine animosity between social classes?

It used to be conservatives that were instinctively pessimistic. But we seem to have moved into a new era in which no matter how much progress is made on anything there'll be some crackpot liberal insisting the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

"Crackpot liberals and " hell in a handbasket " in one post . Tell me alty are you richard littlejohn having some down time ?

 

[Alty]

"Crackpot liberals and " hell in a handbasket " in one post . Tell me alty are you richard littlejohn having some down time ?

Considering my point is that the world isn't going to complete shit, that's a pretty weak comparison.

 

[blade1889]

.

Yet now, in our generally quieter and wealthier times - notwithstanding the attempts of religious extremists and extremist politicians to hijack our growth - we find it impossible to forgive and impossible to see justice other than in terms of locking them up and throwing away the key, or just euthanising them. Justice and incarceration is about rehabilitation and reintegration, not about revenge and retribution.

.

Agree with that part. The 'locking them up and throwing away the key' argument is daft, that serves what point? It serves as a punishment, but a punishment with no learning required as you'll never be freed. It supposedly serves as a deterrent, but its been proven deterrents are NOT the most effective way of stopping crime. It seeks to pile more pressure on limited prison space and money on society with no chance of this debt ever being repaid.

Punishment is pointless, infantile. Its something you do to your kids but with two gaping holes...an education and redemption. And, no, I dont mean educating someone as to why murder is bad-that's obvious-but an education on the alternatives, educating them with an alternative than to return to a past life upon release. So they can have a new life, benefit society and even pay partly towards their prison costs.

I see people say that execution is barbaric, but also argue execution is the easy way out, can anybody else spot the contradiction?

Have always maintained I'd reintroduce the death penalty but on one condition only, we reform the justice system to give criminals an education and prospects after leaving prison...to prevent reoffending and decrease crimes as a whole which, lets be honest, is the whole point of prison. If you have given people this opportunity and they still throw it back in societies face then I would opt for corporal punishment, not only have they been given a chance but you are drastically minimizing the possibility of incorrect executions. To be fair though, if the first step works properly there shouldn't be a need for executions.

 

[infidel]

Martin Bryant deserves to live then does he! 35 people killed with his guns and the coward holds his hands in the air and gives in!
The bastards that beheaded the soldier in London and are now living on the tax payer! I,ll supply the bullet and pull the fuckin trigger on these two and many more that did it.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

the type of people who call for execution are far too often the same lot who look upon the justice system of iran and saudi arabia as barbaric, tis interesting. i remember the bnp manifesto in particular offered up the death penalty for something as light as drug dealing, as well as corporal punishment and a prison camp on the falklands. the british far right and the salafists could make good mates

 

[Pagnell]

Pags thought everyone who advocated the death penalty (along with anyone else who disagreed with his opinion on cars, phones, computers, football or the weather) was a fucking idiot.

As you well know.

Indeed. And lest we forget, I sat on the fence whilst expressing all the above.

 

[HertsWolf]

Considering my point is that the world isn't going to complete shit, that's a pretty weak comparison.

As was claiming that **I** was suggesting it.

 

[HertsWolf]

the type of people who call for execution are far too often the same lot who look upon the justice system of iran and saudi arabia as barbaric, tis interesting. i remember the bnp manifesto in particular offered up the death penalty for something as light as drug dealing, as well as corporal punishment and a prison camp on the falklands. the british far right and the salafists could make good mates

I was going to make this point too. (I actually thought I had but must have deleted it!)

 

[HertsWolf]

Martin Bryant deserves to live then does he! 35 people killed with his guns and the coward holds his hands in the air and gives in!
The bastards that beheaded the soldier in London and are now living on the tax payer! I,ll supply the bullet and pull the fuckin trigger on these two and many more that did it.

I always think hard before responding to what are clearly angry, emotional posts, but here goes....

Any murder is a horrific tragedy, and directly affects far more than just the victims and their families. In most cases, the wider families of the murderer are also permanently destroyed. Bryant is clearly mentally retarded - and psychiatric assessments of Breivik in Norway suggest he is also, despite his high intelligence. You could pick any of a number of murders and probably show some form of mental aberration. It's almost self-defining really.

With the Woolwich murderers, I suspect that they actually would prefer to be executed so that they can become martyrs to those who see the world the same way. Your keenness to satisfy their wish would probably be appreciated by both of them.

I believe that we have moved on from taking lives and have moved towards an appropriate punishment: life incarceration leaves the criminal fairly pathetic and harmless, humiliated even. It's what differentiates us from being Somalia or any number of despotic regimes.
Again, I go back to many of those families in South Carolina who were the very first to forgive the man who murdered their loved ones.

 

[Veggie Legs]

I found this article very interesting as an alternative to the death penalty. Norway has among the lowest reoffending rates in Europe, and I would suggest there's a connection between that and the way that they treat prisoners.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

 

[blade1889]

I found this article very interesting as an alternative to the death penalty. Norway has among the lowest reoffending rates in Europe, and I would suggest there's a connection between that and the way that they treat prisoners.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

Thought it was Norway that had this system but couldn't find any links (so thanks!). For me thats how it should be...if you then re-offend then throw the book at them.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Prison should be about rehabilitation, not about punishment or vengeance. So no, and Norway should be applauded for their approach, truly remarkable.

 

[Blitzballer]

Which is why I stated the below statement about criminals who have committed certain crimes, I think I would probably add food priveleges to this statement, as in they only get enough food to be able to sustain their lives, not enough to be able to live comfortably and have a decent standard of living through food. I am more for the making them miserable for the rest of their lives rather than advocating an easy way to let them die.

Agreed with your post in general Jase, but the bit I bolded is borderline torture , well kinda . I dunno . Interesting topic nevertheless.
I'd rather just put them to death an be done with them.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Agreed with your post in general Jase, but the bit I bolded is borderline torture , well kinda . I dunno . Interesting topic nevertheless.
I'd rather just put them to death an be done with them.

Not really torture, just some kind of incentive for others not to offend and end up in that situation.

 

[Tilbury]

Prisoners who are treated like animals become much more difficult and dangerous to handle as they have nothing to lose. I don't see why good behaviour shouldn't would be rewarded with certain privileges.
My cousin lives on the next island south of that Norwegian prison, I'd actually pay to be an inmate there, such a nice place in the world.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Not really torture, just some kind of incentive for others not to offend and end up in that situation.

That clearly doesn't work though.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I found this article very interesting as an alternative to the death penalty. Norway has among the lowest reoffending rates in Europe, and I would suggest there's a connection between that and the way that they treat prisoners.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

Really interesting article. I'd love to read the DM comments section after the first of those was built in Britain. Why are the Scandinavian countries always so forward thinking?

 

[infidel]

Well done Norway!
Love what they are doing ! They are obviously getting things correct in their own country. Then again the UK and the rest of the west are fucked and have wankers and Greenies running things.
One bullet cost about $1. If absolutely 100% done it. BANG. Finished no more cost and no more murders from the bastard.

 

[Aber gas]

Well done Norway!
Love what they are doing ! They are obviously getting things correct in their own country. Then again the UK and the rest of the west are fucked and have wankers and Greenies running things.
One bullet cost about $1. If absolutely 100% done it. BANG. Finished no more cost and no more murders from the bastard.

You haven't read the article have you ?

 

[infidel]

You haven't read the article have you ?

No too pissed

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

u fucking moron

 

[Gilly?]

Could you imagine if the UK had prisona like Bastoy, the far right would go insane. I really don't know what to make of the prison system in Norway, in theory it sounds excellent, a 16% re-offence rate is incredibly successful.

I guess the fact we're conditioned to think prisoners should be herded around like cattle would make any change in system seem far too 'friendly' to those who have done wrong.

 

[Red]

"Crackpot liberals and " hell in a handbasket " in one post . Tell me alty are you richard littlejohn having some down time ?

 

[JaseTheVillain]

That clearly doesn't work though.

... The evidence being?

 

[infidel]

u fucking moron

Plank!

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

... The evidence being?

The fact that there's no correlation between the harshness of prisons and lower crime rates. If anything, the harsher the prison, the less the prisoners are rehabilitated, and the worse they are when they come out. It should be obvious regardless. How many people commit crimes assuming they're going to prison if they do?