The Labour Thread

[TheMinsterman]

You argue from the point of view, the country has unlimited resources. If it did we could have an ambulance waiting outside every home in the country, just in case someone needed their assistance.

If I do something silly which causes my death. How is that the government's fault?
It's the same with someone who wants to commit suicide. Nothing will stop them if they're intention is to carry it out.

I think of anybody with varying degrees of schizophrenia, autism or any mentally induced ailment that impairs their ability to function in society, as someone who is mentally ill. Someone claiming to be bi polar or manic depressive etc are just (by and large) playing the system.
Mocking those who genuinely need help and can't fend for themselves.

That is one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on these forums.

 

[Techno Natch]

You argue from the point of view, the country has unlimited resources. If it did we could have an ambulance waiting outside every home in the country, just in case someone needed their assistance.

If I do something silly which causes my death. How is that the government's fault?
It's the same with someone who wants to commit suicide. Nothing will stop them if they're intention is to carry it out.

I think of anybody with varying degrees of schizophrenia, autism or any mentally induced ailment that impairs their ability to function in society, as someone who is mentally ill. Someone claiming to be bi polar or manic depressive etc are just (by and large) playing the system.
Mocking those who genuinely need help and can't fend for themselves.

Except interventions do work and have saved lives. Since services were cut suicide has risen and suicide among women is at it's highest rate in ten years. Do you not think that it's a disgrace that there aren't anywhere near enough beds out there for incredibly sick people that need to be stabilised before they harm themselves or others? It's incredibly frustrating and sad to see. There are many good organisations doing the support stuff well but when people actually need to go in for intensive care the services are just not there.

I take issue with the word By and large here. There are many people with Bi-Polar and it's a minority rather than a majority that take the piss. It kinds of indicates to me that your initial reaction when someone talks about their mental health is skepticism when it should be the opposite. It reminds me of woman from housing saying "You get these homeless people coming in and saying they are depressed but I don't know if they are...." She couldn't even see how someone who is homeless is most likely depressed because they don't have a home. (Don't get me started on housing associations either!)

 

[Kopper]

You've got a very distorted view of the world my friend.

Explain?

 

[JaredSUFC]

I'm at the first debate between Corbyn and Smith, interested to see how this plays out

 

[Abertawe]

Explain?

Damning you need an explanation. Think it went summit like "those claiming to be bi polar or manic depressive etc are just (by and large) playing the system."

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You've got a very distorted view of the world my friend.

We're living longer and having fewer kids. The cost of the elderly has to be paid for somehow. It's the main reason Labour and the Conservatives both support mass immigration. It's a lazy way of guaranteeing a younger population. Lazy, unsustainable and completely irresponsible like, but still...

 

[Abertawe]

This already feels like the crowd could turn a bit nasty.

 

[.V.]

Anyone have a link for it? Streaks died on the Guardian website.

 

[.V.]

On BBC News for those interested.

 

[.V.]

I do wish supporters of both men would shut up and let them both speak.

 

[.V.]

I think Trident is a waste of money, but I do think the Labour Party making it an issue shows a lack of political savvy. It is not the issue that will encourage the general electoral to vote Labour.

 

[.V.]

Depressing that a question on anti semitism has had to come up. FWIW I don't think Corbyn is anti Semite at all.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Owen Smith chest beating about basically booting people out without real due process when it comes anti-Semitism with a very weak concession that "of course" it should be investigated, trying to claim it's just the nine months despite these allegations pre-dating them...

 

[TheMinsterman]

This 50% as women argument is such bullshit, this arbitrary figure is just a little virtue signal to get progressive support. Women with talent should be given positions, but this idea that we need to be "50/50" is nonsense (if there was more women than men, who cares, this arbitrary target is ridiculous). Corbyn is just as guilty for buying into this.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Overall, Smith clearly has his soundbites prepared, he kept going back to the "we need to be in government" one, whether this style will get across to those voting I'm not sure.

 

[Abertawe]

He's slick but he's fucking himself over with his view on a second referendum. His biggest issue is people don't trust polished PR type politicians anymore, certainly not the majority of the Labour membership anyway.

 

[TheMinsterman]

He's slick but he's fucking himself over with his view on a second referendum. His biggest issue is people don't trust polished PR type politicians anymore, certainly not the majority of the Labour membership anyway.

I can see why he's going with it, he at least gets that he needs to target LD and Green voters, many of whom voted to Remain, along with the general mood post Brexit where people were angry about being misled (regardless of how people voted, the split was marginal, it wasn't gargantuan so there's vote or two to be had there). It has logic behind it, I don't think it's wise to commit to it though, dangling it as a "possibility" he would "look into" would perhaps win a few votes without forcing him to nail his colours to the mast.

 

[Abertawe]

I can see why he's going with it, he at least gets that he needs to target LD and Green voters, many of whom voted to Remain, along with the general mood post Brexit where people were angry about being misled (regardless of how people voted, the split was marginal, it wasn't gargantuan so there's vote or two to be had there). It has logic behind it, I don't think it's wise to commit to it though, dangling it as a "possibility" he would "look into" would perhaps win a few votes without forcing him to nail his colours to the mast.

Get the thinking but if that's his angle then I think he's calling it completely wrong. The key to general election victory most people are agreed is capturing the floating vote and the last election points to the will of the floating vote being for brexit. UKIP saw their share of the vote rise by 9.6% whilst the LD's saw a decrease of 15.1% and Greens grew but at a paltry rate of 0.7%.

Labour conceded votes to UKIP for years because it swerved anything relating to the EU or immigration. With the brexit result the obstacle to otherwise would be Labour voters has been removed but Owen for some reason wants to put it out there again. We all saw UKIP make massive gains of core Labour support on the premise of one single issue, that one premise is now an irrelevance, surely alienating 12.7% of the vote that is re isn't an election winning tactic. His angle should be to "bring home" the UKIP protest vote but he's done the opposite. The only way UKIP doesn't see it's vote share dwindle in 2020 is if something stupid happens with brexit. I don't know how Labour wins a general election if they don't swallow up UKIP's vote. He talks about being radical in government but he's shown nothing to convince me he'd be capable of actually winning an election in the first place.

 

[Alty]

I can see why he's going with it, he at least gets that he needs to target LD and Green voters, many of whom voted to Remain, along with the general mood post Brexit where people were angry about being misled (regardless of how people voted, the split was marginal, it wasn't gargantuan so there's vote or two to be had there). It has logic behind it, I don't think it's wise to commit to it though, dangling it as a "possibility" he would "look into" would perhaps win a few votes without forcing him to nail his colours to the mast.

It's mental.

Tactically it's an own goal because he'd be putting masses of Labour seats at risk of going to UKIP.

Aside from that, what happens if enough youngsters get off their arse this time to swing it and the referendum goes 51/49 for rejecting the exit strategy? That could lead to genuine chaos. I don't think the EU would say "alright, forget the whole thing, you can stay in with the same opt-outs".

Smith needs to accept the result and look like he has a plan for dealing with it. Sneakily trying to avoid Brexit looks like a weasel move by a man with no ideas.

 

[Gashead]

The only way UKIP doesn't see it's vote share dwindle in 2020 is if something stupid happens with brexit. I don't know how Labour wins a general election if they don't swallow up UKIP's vote. He talks about being radical in government but he's shown nothing to convince me he'd be capable of actually winning an election in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly, there's a few clinging onto the idea of remaining and its fairly hopeless. I always thought Smith's referendum idea was for the terms of Brexit wasn't it? If he's brought up the 'second referendum' idea then he should scrap that fairly quickly.

However, I'm not sure UKIP is the stable ship it once was. Lots, at least in my experience, saw it as a vote for Farage too. When the stable, acceptable leadership candidate (Woolfe?) is barred from entering for putting his papers through late, it makes you wonder what the successor is going to be like.

People used Farage as a 'man of the people, not a slick PR politician' type, but that's exactly what he was. Very good politician, not easy to replace. Where that UKIP vote goes if they become a fringe party again will be interesting.

 

[TheMinsterman]

For the record, I'm not suggesting I agree with his referendum idea, merely that I can see the reasoning for it in terms of short term gains which is what he is aiming for at the moment. I voted Remain but now it's done and my future is basically abroad as a result due to the "industry" I work in I want to plan for the completion of my PhD and future career, I don't want more uncertainty and by the time there's an election people will be sick of it, but in the short term to try and win some brownie points to get his foot in the door I understand it, even if I disagree with it.

His error is promising it, that is just Clegg Vol. 2

 

[Aber gas]

Sad bastards

https://twitter.com/laboureoin/status/761602855975448577

 

[Abertawe]

Merthyr movement

Swansea movement

 

[Max]

You are presenting the videos/pictures of the rallies without comment. You obviously assume they speak for themselves. I don't really understand what the point is.

For example:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-rallies-wales-attract-11713120

Local newspaper estimates the crowd was around 1,600 in Swansea. The constituency it was held in, Swansea West, was won by Geraint Davies with just under 15,000 votes.

In the grand scheme of things, what is the benefit of holding these rallies? What are they meant to accomplish?

 

[Captain Scumbag]

^ Is that line of questioning not disingenuous? It's obvious (or at least should be to someone one of your perspicacity) that these rallies are not part of some grand plan to win the next General Election but necessary preparation for the forthcoming leadership contest – one that has been forced on him by malcontents within the PLP.

I mean, you'd have a point if it were April 2020 and JC's entire strategy consisted of addressing audiences of sycophants. But it's not. It's 2016, but in political terms the botched coup has essentially put the Labour Party back to summer 2015, with Corbyn forced to win the leadership contest all over again. Naturally he's going to re-use the tactics that worked for him last time and focus on rallying his support.

 

[Abertawe]

Indeed, it seems Max is incapable of reading as I already said the same to V.

Interesting Max still can't explain or point to any form of proof that Smith could deliver an election victory. Sometimes silence really does speak for itself.

 

[Max]

^ Is that line of questioning not disingenuous? It's obvious (or at least should be to someone one of your perspicacity) that these rallies are not part of some grand plan to win the next General Election but necessary preparation for the forthcoming leadership contest – one that has been forced on him by malcontents within the PLP.

I mean, you'd have a point if it were April 2020 and JC's entire strategy consisted of addressing audiences of sycophants. But it's not. It's 2016, but in political terms the botched coup has essentially put the Labour Party back to summer 2015, with Corbyn forced to win the leadership contest all over again. Naturally he's going to re-use the tactics that worked for him last time and focus on rallying his support.

^ Is that line of questioning not disingenuous? It's obvious (or at least should be to someone one of your perspicacity) that these rallies are not part of some grand plan to win the next General Election but necessary preparation for the forthcoming leadership contest – one that has been forced on him by malcontents within the PLP.

I mean, you'd have a point if it were April 2020 and JC's entire strategy consisted of addressing audiences of sycophants. But it's not. It's 2016, but in political terms the botched coup has essentially put the Labour Party back to summer 2015, with Corbyn forced to win the leadership contest all over again. Naturally he's going to re-use the tactics that worked for him last time and focus on rallying his support.

The problem is that he's not even making any effort to win over members of the Labour party that don't agree with him. His control of the party is not absolute. He appears to be trying to build up Momentum and his followers into a movement, but to what end it is genuinely not apparent.

It might as well be his general election strategy, because those in Labour who are unconvinced by him are unconvinced because we don't think he can talk to the general public. He's politically tone deaf and determined to celebrate his own popularity with his current supporters. He's whipping up his supporters to undertake a future war against the PLP, and to further division within the party.

The whole 'malcontents in the PLP' thing is in fact disingenuous. To indulge a thought experiment: let's say David Cameron, while PM, lost the support of 4/5 of his MPs and had nearly his entire shadow cabinet resign. He then wouldn't budge, because he had a mandate, he'd been elected (in a general election, in this case). This argument would not wash. He would resign, and his complaining about the circumstances that led to this situation would rightly garner no sympathy. Whether or not things are your fault as a leader, they are your responsibility, and Jeremy Corbyn fails to understand this.

Indeed, it seems Max is incapable of reading as I already said the same to V.

Interesting Max still can't explain or point to any form of proof that Smith could deliver an election victory. Sometimes silence really does speak for itself.

Firstly, there's pages of stuff on this thread you've chosen to ignore because you don't have any answer, so let's not pull at that thread, eh?

Also, I don't think anyone is guaranteed of delivering a Labour victory in 2020. I think anyone would, at present, fail. I think Jeremy Corbyn will lead to a split that will destroy the party. You won't care, because you'll have 'won'. Jeremy won't care, because he'll have 'won'. But the long term consequences will be disastrous.

Labour are polling disastrously, are entirely undivided and are a shambles at the moment. Things could literally not be any worse for the party, so Jeremy has to go before any improvement can be made whatsoever.

 

[Benji]

I'm pretty furious with the politics of this country.

Since even before I became of voting age, the older generations asserted that I simply must vote. You must vote because if you don't, the politicians have no reason to listen to you. If you don't vote, your beliefs will simply remain outside the realms of possibly being into practise. And I parroted this to my friends and peers. If you don't vote, your views don't count to politicians. I didn't really seem to affect anyone's disillusionment.

Then last year, suddenly people felt that a change was possible, and people my age were mobilised and engaged enough to join the Labour party and vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Bucking the trend of being unrepresented, and getting involved. For a while, it was exciting and there were issues we cared about being talked about.

But the rest of the Labour party didn't like it. Instead of doing what I was promised would happen, they have simply rejected the young voters. They undermined their leader, and now they are trying to ban 130,000 people from having a say. A huge chunk of the 130,000 people are the unrepresented 18-24 year olds who didn't believe in the system.

I'm not some kind of Corbyn obsessive, I wasn't even one of those people who joined Labour to vote for him. But I like him, and I would vote for him in the General Election. To be plain, I am just tired of being overlooked, and seeing the Labour party fight tooth and nail against the right for my demographic to be represented disgusts me.

 

[Max]

Well, this evening the results of Labour's National Executive Committee elections were announced, and Corbyn supporters overwhelmingly won.

So, the Corbyn wing have now won the operating section of the party. The part of the Labour Party I identify with won 3 general elections, introduced the minimum wage, implemented devolution to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland, and introduced civil partnerships and adoption for LGBT couples. I await with much anticipation the changes to this country that Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters will now bring to us all. Whenever you're ready, comrades ...

 

[Aber gas]

Well, this evening the results of Labour's National Executive Committee elections were announced, and Corbyn supporters overwhelmingly won.

So, the Corbyn wing have now won the operating section of the party. The part of the Labour Party I identify with won 3 general elections, introduced the minimum wage, implemented devolution to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland, and introduced civil partnerships and adoption for LGBT couples. I await with much anticipation the changes to this country that Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters will now bring to us all. Whenever you're ready, comrades ...

Yes and I supported and campaigned for those governments and leaderships despite misgivings about them. The Labour Party needs to move forward by getting behind the leadership now. The turf war should be over. Let's try and build bridges and take on the real enemy. Quite frankly this has been horrible and I've lost a great deal of respect for people who I used to admire on both sides.