Stickied The Staff Query Thread

[Captain Scumbag]

Not sure I buy this after the Nintendo giveaway. To maintain a forum as a saleable asset, you need to have active members and a stream of discussion, but to me the giveaway was an artificial means of improving the appearance of the forum to prospective buyers.

It’s a beautiful evening here in Caledonia and 1FF is not paying me to do its PR, so you’ll hopefully forgive a light response. I honestly don’t know much about the Nintendo row (I find it tedious, TBH), so it’s probably best to leave that one to the Admin guys.

On a personal note, and to repeat my earlier comment to Matt, I think there’s always room for uncertainty when money is involved. I’m a bit jaded and fatalistic about that sort of thing (part and parcel of being a Tory prick, perhaps), so I’m probably not the best person to calm others who aren’t.

Put bluntly, we don’t know if there’s going to be a sale, or how a sale would affect the site it did go through. If things become intolerable then there are alternatives, but until then I’d like to make this site work. For me, part of that is calling out Admin bullshit (which I’ve done on other threads). Another part is calling out some of the more questionable stuff on the users’ side.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

The reds have ruined this place and they can't even admit it or even worse recognise their errors. So sad.

I know, the Liverpool fans are unbearable at times.

 

[Stevencc]

Well said Jase mate.

 

[Stevencc]

It’s a beautiful evening here in Caledonia and 1FF is not paying me to do its PR, so you’ll hopefully forgive a light response. I honestly don’t know much about the Nintendo row (I find it tedious, TBH), so it’s probably best to leave that one to the Admin guys.

On a personal note, and to repeat my earlier comment to Matt, I think there’s always room for uncertainty when money is involved. I’m a bit jaded and fatalistic about that sort of thing (part and parcel of being a Tory prick, perhaps), so I’m probably not the best person to calm others who aren’t.

Put bluntly, we don’t know if there’s going to be a sale, or how a sale would affect the site it did go through. If things become intolerable then there are alternatives, but until then I’d like to make this site work. For me, part of that is calling out Admin bullshit (which I’ve done on other threads). Another part is calling out some of the more questionable stuff on the users’ side.

I know you said you find it tedious so I will keep it short.

All hell was breaking loose on the forum a few weeks/months back, when it was found out that the owners were planning to sell the site without so much as consulting the members. Their response was to palm everyone off with the chance of winning a Nintendo Switch. Much to my horror (almost) everyone sold both their soul and their anus for a chance to win this console and quietened down their protests. I, being a man of honour and principles, left the site in protest at what I saw as backing down and selling out. I then sold out as well by coming back - but not for material gain so I'm telling myself that I retain the moral high ground if not the social life. Now the Switch has been won and the protests are firing up again in response to the issues you know about.

It might be an Xbox One that solves the current disquiet.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Thank you, Steven. Very helpful.

 

[Stevencc]

Glad to have been of service.

 

[Martino Quackavelli]

Never forget #nintendogate

 

[Son of Cod]

I understand why SR doesn’t want to fire-fight on multiple threads. Closing that other thread but continuing the discussion here (a thread set up for discussion regarding bans, suspensions, etc.) makes sense. I would have done the same.

He wanted to close the other thread with a message explaining why, which is standard. You snuck in a cheap shot before he could close it. Leaving it would have looked silly, so he deleted it. I would have done the same.

I understand your frustration, but I'm also struggling to cast you in that martyr to free speech role because you got your dig in anyway (re-posting it here along with another whinge) and we’re now having this rather tedious conversation about it.

I have no axe to grind. You and I have got on fine for years. Hell, you were the one who guided me here when TFF was blown up. My opinion, FWIW, is that you’re being petty and have blown things out of proportion. On TFF we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We’d probably both be banned.

We have indeed got on fine for years and I'm not feeling any kind of real animosity here either. Apologies if you have from anything I have said, but I had no intention if so.

Perhaps we have opposing thoughts on closing threads. I personally don't see the point of it. If something gets out of hand, yeah close it. Clean it up. Re-open it. Modmins determining when a discussion is done is probably the thing that has riled me the most about both TFF and here. So yes, I deployed cheap shots but for me it's a case of tit for tat.

 

[MagpieBee]

The fact that the majority of adverts that ruin the user experience aren't even neccessary for the running of the site, but just create profit (quite a bit of it!) for Saddler and TB is pretty bad to be honest.

 

[Saddlerrad]

It’s a beautiful evening here in Caledonia and 1FF is not paying me to do its PR, so you’ll hopefully forgive a light response. I honestly don’t know much about the Nintendo row (I find it tedious, TBH), so it’s probably best to leave that one to the Admin guys.

On a personal note, and to repeat my earlier comment to Matt, I think there’s always room for uncertainty when money is involved. I’m a bit jaded and fatalistic about that sort of thing (part and parcel of being a Tory prick, perhaps), so I’m probably not the best person to calm others who aren’t.

Put bluntly, we don’t know if there’s going to be a sale, or how a sale would affect the site it did go through. If things become intolerable then there are alternatives, but until then I’d like to make this site work. For me, part of that is calling out Admin bullshit (which I’ve done on other threads). Another part is calling out some of the more questionable stuff on the users’ side.

To be frank, nobody in red does either. Hence the listing currently being in-active, as has been the case for months. The issue re a sale for TB's 50% and or/us are for numerous different reasons, but most namely; time and other life commitments - nothing vindictive. Life goes up and down, much like it's commitments etc and currently I genuinely don't think anyone could give a 100% answer as to what's happening sale or sale not (TB included in that). Either way, should TB sell his half up, then I and Mark would still be here and I wouldn't allow anyone I didn't think had the best interests of the forum in mind buy TB's share (I get a say in whether it's a yes or no, of course) and the same would apply, should we both wish to sell the entire forum, or part of our shares up. As part of any 'handover' I'd be requesting to stay on as a mod to help bridge any potential new part owner/full owner.

Just to clear that one up.

Is a discourage feature even legal? I would think not if anyone who was on it had paid to be a supporter of this site?

Most of this stuff passes me by, but it does seem that most decisions are taken on a "protect the value of the asset we are trying to sell" basis, particularly by some admins, and the discourage feature is just one example of that.

I do feel a little sorry for Saddler at times as his job largely seems to be apologising for the crap everyone else does.

Yes in short, it's legal. It's a non-obligatory 'donation' to a website whereby the only benefits are less ads, a blue name tag and 1 section of the forum to yourselves. Xenforo (the most modern of any forum software) wouldn't release something that's technically illegal in anyway shape or form as they'd be the ones facing the law suits. It is literally a feature that slows the forum down in terms of load speed, a bit like when we go over bandwith or the servers are down.

In which case though, how do I or we win? We do nothing and left the forum drift, people leave and we are a useless bunch of shitbags that ruined the website.

We help the forum, think of games, ways to attract new followers, build our general social media and website profile up.... and it's all for a few quid extra on the sale?

As you probably saw on the advert:

View attachment 6416

The yellow highlighted lines are all that really matter for hosting the site I think. These total £781 for the year.

The green highlighted lines are money coming in to the site which don't affect the users as much. £2805.89 from sponsored threads and the advert bar at the top along with the small bit coming in from amazon (which I believe would be more if advertised better or if the users were treated better, many have said they have refused to use this due to certain things).

The final £625 is from the user memberships which I expect will decrease since this was published.

So the not tick along bit with a potential £2649.89 profit which could be put aside for any issues of which seems a lot of money for an issue as only £781 was spent in the year?

The site is being run to maximise profit via adverts which aren't required to but are making this a business for saddler and tb. You can see why someone would make another site on seeing these figures as they could cut the big adverts everywhere, just have a few affiliate links and a small ad bar for various gambling sites and take home £2500 a year.

(I know a lot more goes into running the site including hours etc, but do you really need to fuck everyone off with adverts in an attempt to get them to pay a fiver membership

Completely see your side of this story, as I did Hurrikeen's earlier. However, a couple of counter points. 1) The site didn't turn a profit or anything like it during the 1st year or so. So site supporters donations were needed and helped pay the bills. 2) It's an non-obligatory donation of £5, that's literally meant to be a case of 'if the ads annoy you then you can pay £5 to get out of it'. Nothing more or less. This is more TB's side of things than it is mine, so he will have more of the finer details.

The issue lies in the fact it was not broadcast, which is where we are trying to become more transparent from this point onwards, hence my reply to scumbag above. Not a lot that can be done about the passed unfortunately, but we can do our best from this point in.

 

[Saddlerrad]

The fact that the majority of adverts that ruin the user experience aren't even neccessary for the running of the site, but just create profit (quite a bit of it!) for Saddler and TB is pretty bad to be honest.

Just as an FYI in keeping with transparency - a far smaller portion of any money comes from Ad payments, it's more the menubar and 'sponsored' threads. The ad's alone, possibly wouldn't keep the place afloat for the year.

But we are divulging away from the fact Ian and TPP got banned and there's been a lack of correct/fair modding on site in the last few months which is where the real issue lies/has been complained about.

 

[Dave]

T
Completely see your side of this story, as I did Hurrikeen's earlier. However, a couple of counter points. 1) The site didn't turn a profit or anything like it during the 1st year or so. So site supporters donations were needed and helped pay the bills. 2) It's an non-obligatory donation of £5, that's literally meant to be a case of 'if the ads annoy you then you can pay £5 to get out of it'. Nothing more or less. This is more TB's side of things than it is mine, so he will have more of the finer details.

The issue lies in the fact it was not broadcast, which is where we are trying to become more transparent from this point onwards, hence my reply to scumbag above. Not a lot that can be done about the passed unfortunately, but we can do our best from this point in.

The money isn't the bigger issue here as that was covered previously and I think you've tried to rectify it as you can.

You should create a new account and spend a while browsing the site using that account on various devices and see how shit the site is to browse and use in general and put yourself in the shoes of someone who has to try and use the forum like this. The advertising money coming in seems to be increasing, it'd be interesting what it's at with the increased traffic due to the nintendo competition (again, I don't have any issues with how this was run, it was a fair competition for advertising as you made clear..)

 

[johnnytodd]

I know everyone has me on ignore but id like to say good on the owners making a few quid.

Its nice to have a place to have a moan every now and then after the match.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

We have indeed got on fine for years and I'm not feeling any kind of real animosity here either. Apologies if you have from anything I have said, but I had no intention if so.

Nah, nothing like that, mate. Was just trying to stress that the argument was coming from a friendly place. Probably unnecessary.

 

[Son of Cod]

Nah, nothing like that, mate. Was just trying to stress that the argument was coming from a friendly place. Probably unnecessary.

Always better to be safe than sorry, I think. Misreading the tone of a post can escalate into unwanted bad feeling.

On a lighter (and completely unrelated note), I lasted about a day before cracking and downloading the new Fargos haha.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Just as an FYI in keeping with transparency - a far smaller portion of any money comes from Ad payments, it's more the menubar and 'sponsored' threads. The ad's alone, possibly wouldn't keep the place afloat for the year.

But we are divulging away from the fact Ian and TPP got banned and there's been a lack of correct/fair modding on site in the last few months which is where the real issue lies/has been complained about.

Right. So unban him.

 

[sl1k]

It's really how all the aforementioned problems came to combine which has got us to this point - an environment where the ambience isn't an enthusing one and long time members that regularly contribute valued content begin to drop off in activity. You can't make up for that with giveaways/social media promotions, and the manner (+ circumstances) in which they were conducted were the surest signs of selling out. For myself at least, it was the premise of keeping this long-standing community together which brought me over and had me eager to contribute in the first place. The energy was vibrant, it seemed like the demise of TFF (and the nature of the way it happened) gave everyone a push, a lift to keep the heart of this place beating. We became OneFootballForum.

I was then and still am now very grateful to the admin for stepping in when they did and for all the hard work that goes in to keep things ticking over. I have expressed my own grievances in the form of tongue in cheek trash talk every now then in the box and on the board, but they aren't without substance. You were at the right place at the right time, you didn't earn this user base. The least you can do is ensure the place is adequately staffed, keep channels of communications open to our concerns and not treat members with contempt ('discourage' feature) no matter how annoying or difficult they can be. After all, everyone here has and is invested.

The ads definitely need to be looked at as well. If you are genuinely looking for members that will be in it for the long haul, then the current set up is far from ideal. In truth it looks like ya'll were just padding up the numbers for any potential forum sale with the competitions and such. Pointing to any stats on site traffic doesn't mean anything for actual quality of product.

 

[Alan Partridge]

The adverts have made this site almost unbearable, been saying it for months. Browsing it on a phone is a complete no go, in fact, even on a big screen it's a pain in the arse.

Complete overkill.

 

[Saddlerrad]

It's really how all the aforementioned problems came to combine which has got us to this point - an environment where the ambience isn't an enthusing one and long time members that regularly contribute valued content begin to drop off in activity. You can't make up for that with giveaways/social media promotions, and the manner (+ circumstances) in which they were conducted were the surest signs of selling out. For myself at least, it was the premise of keeping this long-standing community together which brought me over and had me eager to contribute in the first place. The energy was vibrant, it seemed like the demise of TFF (and the nature of the way it happened) gave everyone a push, a lift to keep the heart of this place beating. We became OneFootballForum.

I was then and still am now very grateful to the admin for stepping in when they did and for all the hard work that goes in to keep things ticking over. I have expressed my own grievances in the form of tongue in cheek trash talk every now then in the box and on the board, but they aren't without substance. You were at the right place at the right time, you didn't earn this user base. The least you can do is ensure the place is adequately staffed, keep channels of communications open to our concerns and not treat members with contempt ('discourage' feature) no matter how annoying or difficult they can be. After all, everyone here has and is invested.

The ads definitely need to be looked at as well. If you are genuinely looking for members that will be in it for the long haul, then the current set up is far from ideal. In truth it looks like ya'll were just padding up the numbers for any potential forum sale with the competitions and such. Pointing to any stats on site traffic doesn't mean anything for actual quality of product.

Point taken - which is where the new mods/transparency that's been starting to show through in the last day or so will continue and hopefully put to bed the worries of the regulars. As I said though, that's not something that can happen overnight and there must be opportunity in terms of time to be given at this point. To come back at a couple of your points. Site traffic was on the way back up far before the competition ran and the competition whilst an attempt to increase social media channels, was also an attempt to get a few people out of hibernation and back into the daily swing of things on 1FF (hence the side wide PM), so it's not all just 'padding members' for a potential sale, as mentioned whether any sale actually goes ahead this month, or this decade is currently absolutely unknown.

I will suggest a re-think on the ads to TB - as that's above my station and I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Cheers for the feedback.

 

[Renegade]

Regards Ads, their frequency and content etc unfortunately I'm not well placed to answer, I simply don't know enough on that side to talk with any authority. But all I would say to Renegade is that even if all the admin didn't "give a fuck" in terms of actively getting involved in the site - we still need to pay the various bills that keep the site running at the end of the month, every month. If all admin truly didn't give a fuck and did nothing, the site wouldn't tick along very long before it's plugged got pulled - not by the admin, but by one of our suppliers!

For the record Mark, I didn't say you guys 'didn't give a fuck'. I was pointing out that even though the admin of TFF didn't give a fuck, the community still ticked along pretty nicely until they canned the project. I appreciate that the guys pay the bills, but as s1lk points out, it's the community that makes this place and TB/Saddler for all their hard work were pretty much handed a dedicated community for free without having to cultivate anything. There is work that goes into the site, but it isn't without reward, be it monetary or prestige (running a successful website with thousands of members isn't a bad thing to put on a CV, especially if that implies that enough marketing was done to entice the user-base). I do thank you all for being there in the right place at the right time, I certainly wouldn't have volunteered, but the community would have survived regardless.

I want this place to survive, so I'm not trying to contribute to you being pushed out the door from criticism. Trying to be constructive in my criticism, maybe in a very blunt way, but (1) the advertisements without having AdBlock enabled make this site unbearable to use (2) TPP's banning was outrageous and (3) there is no defence in using a 'discourage' feature without letting the member know that it has been applied, it is worse than a banning. A banned member might sign up again over time, but at least they know what they did wrong. A discouraged user will be frustrated to the point of never returning and will have in the process possibly spent hours irritated by the quality of the website, never knowing why.

Saddler has apologised for (3), which is fair enough. It's pretty clear why (1) and (2) on top of the Nintendo criticism has made a good chunk of the user-base question the motives of those in charge.

 

[Hurrikeen]

Its hardly surprising many on here are a bit miffed at still being asked for £5 to avoid the ever increasing, repetitive and OTT number of adverts, whilst being told that the prior motive of running this site is not for financial reasons - when it clearly is when you look at the profit/loss account at the end of the year.

It also makes me question whether this post from TB on the early days was actually complete bollocks:

"Thanks for your generosity, we fixed it at £5 as wanted it to be in no doubt that we're doing this for enjoyment as opposed to anything financial."

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Yeah. I was pretty pissed off at having paid a fiver when it all came out. Wouldn't have minded paying to support the site, still wouldn't to be fair. Wouldn't have minded if we had been told straight up it's to hide adds, but it was pretty fucking deceptive the way it played out.

The discourage list is pretty fucking deceptive, although I do understand why Ian would be sanctioned for advertising an alternate forum, however much in jest it was, although I also think his point about having a pm dropped would have been a more appropriate way to handle it, or an automated message saying you have been warned for <insert reason> when a warning is handed out?

The banning of TPP isn't deceptive, it's down right LUNACY.

 

[SALTIRE]

Well said Jase mate.

Na you missed us really that's why you came back.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Is the site slow as arse today or have I been placed on this mystical 'discouraged members' thing?

 

[johnnytodd]

Is the site slow as arse today or have I been placed on this mystical 'discouraged members' thing?

Funnily enough mines getting faster and faster, ????? Weird.

 

[Oeuf]

Fair play to Saddler for his replies over the last couple of days, including a considered response to my earlier post. In their defence (if I must) all of this site's admin are capable of being constructive in their responses (including the one who banned me) and none are as aloof as TFF's worst offenders. Some of the measures - a set of rules, the appointment of a good N&CA mod - are a small step in the right direction. Having said that, I'm still harbouring some pretty massive reservations about this place, not least coz I'm still yet to be released from my TORMENT.

I don't have all that much to add to some of the very fine points raised elsewhere in this thread. From my perspective, I think there has, over time, been a gradual breakdown of trust, which has heavily contributed to where we are now. People don't generally want to think the worst. The perception that monetising the site is a higher priority than delivering a website that actually works well for the users has arisen as a result of various incidents: the lack of consultation over a sale, the lack of transparency over an improved financial situation, the excessive number of adverts that render the site nigh on unusable unless you install an ablock and which are likely to put off prospective members, a competition designed to boost traffic and ad revenue and little else. All the while it feels as though some fairly fundamental issues have been ignored. It felt as though lip service was being paid to complaints about intrusive ads and trolling and the recent data loss incident (delivered in quite a blase, matter of fact way, without apology) just, in my mind, seemed to compound the idea that admin have all the wrong priorities. Again, banning or secretively restricting users when you don't like the cut of their jib doesn't really do much to aid this impression. In the grand scheme of things an incident such as the data loss isn't the end of the world but it is irritating and frustrating, especially in the context of what's been going on with the site. I could certainly have been more constructive with my criticism on Sunday night but there does come a point where you get a bit fed up of repeatedly having to raise the same kind of issues. Really rather hope you take heed this time because some of this stuff needs to improve quickly.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

Fair play to Saddler for his replies over the last couple of days, including a considered response to my earlier post. In their defence (if I must) all of this site's admin are capable of being constructive in their responses (including the one who banned me) and none are as aloof as TFF's worst offenders. Some of the measures - a set of rules, the appointment of a good N&CA mod - are a small step in the right direction. Having said that, I'm still harbouring some pretty massive reservations about this place, not least coz I'm still yet to be released from my TORMENT.

I don't have all that much to add to some of the very fine points raised elsewhere in this thread. From my perspective, I think there has, over time, been a gradual breakdown of trust, which has heavily contributed to where we are now. People don't generally want to think the worst. The perception that monetising the site is a higher priority than delivering a website that actually works well for the users has arisen as a result of various incidents: the lack of consultation over a sale, the lack of transparency over an improved financial situation, the excessive number of adverts that render the site nigh on unusable unless you install an ablock and which are likely to put off prospective members, a competition designed to boost traffic and ad revenue and little else. All the while it feels as though some fairly fundamental issues have been ignored. It felt as though lip service was being paid to complaints about intrusive ads and trolling and the recent data loss incident (delivered in quite a blase, matter of fact way, without apology) just, in my mind, seemed to compound the idea that admin have all the wrong priorities. Again, banning or secretively restricting users when you don't like the cut of their jib doesn't really do much to aid this impression. In the grand scheme of things an incident such as the data loss isn't the end of the world but it is irritating and frustrating, especially in the context of what's been going on with the site. I could certainly have been more constructive with my criticism on Sunday night but there does come a point where you get a bit fed up of repeatedly having to raise the same kind of issues. Really rather hope you take heed this time because some of this stuff needs to improve quickly.

But... Look at your post-like ratio! You might want to keep this account!

 

[Renegade]

I don't know who this Oeuf guy is, but he surely must be a contender for newcomer of the year and with Ian out of the running, Shoutbox user of the year.

 

[Bobbin']

Having just read the whole thread, I don't think any of this is going to help the pineapple's paranoia.

 

[Hurrikeen]

Is the site slow as arse today or have I been placed on this mystical 'discouraged members' thing?

Yeah, the site this morning is slower than a 1FF ban reversal.

Apparently though, if you ship a tenner to the Mod Squad they'll add an "Encourage" feature onto your profile which should speed things up.