The Van Gaal Era: Preformance Checks/Kpis

[AFCB_Mark]

A bit of late night Greater Manchester handbags hey. #bantz and all that...

 

[silkyman]

<shrugs>

 

[Mustard]

This is great

 

[thespus]

Cazorla is better than Mata. Santi deserves more love. He's made more assists than any player since joining the league and scored 28 goals in all comps in his (almost) 3 seasons for Arsenal. He's a better dribbler, the better tackler, and he is more versatile, i.e. he can drop alongside Coquelin and dictate the pace. Mata is brilliant, too, but I think United would be a better side with Cazorla.

 

[Stocky]

Cazorla is better than Mata. Santi deserves more love. He's made more assists than any player since joining the league and scored 28 goals in all comps in his (almost) 3 seasons for Arsenal. He's a better dribbler, the better tackler, and he is more versatile, i.e. he can drop alongside Coquelin and dictate the pace. Mata is brilliant, too, but I think United would be a better side with Cazorla.

You're right but where did anyone mention Santi Cazorla?

 

[thespus]

Where did anyone mention Silkyman's allegiance to Macclesfield?

 

[Bilo]

Half of Stocky's posts have been on the subject.

 

[Nilsson]

Cazorla is better than Mata. Santi deserves more love. He's made more assists than any player since joining the league and scored 28 goals in all comps in his (almost) 3 seasons for Arsenal. He's a better dribbler, the better tackler, and he is more versatile, i.e. he can drop alongside Coquelin and dictate the pace. Mata is brilliant, too, but I think United would be a better side with Cazorla.

He's having a good season but I wouldn't swap Cazorla for Mata. I'm not a big fan of either but Cazorla is 4 years older and I've been largely underwhelmed by him before this season. He wouldn't improve us with any significance and he's certainly not the type of player we should be looking to bring in.

 

[AtaturkOzgutson]

Van Gaal picking up the Anton Geesink award for "remarkable sport performance" yesterday.

Trophyless my arse.

That is the most hideous trophy I've ever seen.

It looks like a cross between Charlie Chaplin and John Cleese gurning their face off after they've been battering the disco biscuits all evening.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

After 31 games last season we got 51 points. After 31 games this season we have 62 points.
When Moyes was sacked (after 34 games) we were on 57 points. We're already of the 5 points clear of that having played 3 games less.
Our total of points from last season was 64, we're already 2 points away from that having played 7 games less.
At this point last season we scored 48 goals, conceded 37 with a GD of +11. This season we scored 55 goals, conceded 28 with a GD of +27.

We were 7th after 31 games. Now we're 3rd and 1 point off 2nd (obviously depending on the City result on Monday).

Also should mention that our worst results came right at the start the year when the club was still reeling from Moyes incompetence and learning Van Gaal methods, not to mention the fact that most of the money people love to mention had yet to be/just been spent.

Anyway I don't usually do this but such is my conviction that Moyes was utterly horrible at United and has received far too much sympathy from his defenders I just want to say

Steady , Dessy and co we are are all waiting for you to admit what we all know

 

[Steady]

You never responded to the following, Scruff. You might find it renders your post obsolete in terms of my purported views...

I can't be arsed to run around in yet more circles (and I'm sure you can't) in regards to this debate, so I'm just gonna take this snippet here and show you what I mean.

In the first paragraph you analyse Moyes' tenure in charge, saying he "inherited a stable winning machine albeit one in need of an oil change". I wholehearedly disagree for a start, but that's not the issue I have. It's that you go on to acknowledge that Moyes' record was 'respectable' in the first half of the season, but you literally put that all down to Ferguson. This is the only positive part of Moyes' reign that you've ever acknowledged, and you've completely downplayed it and attributed it to someone else. However, every negative aspect of his reign is laid at Moyes' feet and no-one else's. How on Earth is that fair? This is what I mean about how his stay was, and continues to be, portrayed. Everything that went wrong was completely down to him, anything that went right and was positive is all down to someone else.

Then you start to run down what Van Gaal "has had to deal with", including "losing 3/4 of your first choice defence" (Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra were all already pretty much gone before Moyes came through the door), injuries (which are suffered by every team and, shock horror, Moyes' United) and changing the style of play. I've seen Moyes regularly criticised for trying to change Ferguson's style while he was in charge, and I've also seen him criticised for not changing it enough.

Van Gaal qualifying for the Champions League won't change my mind, as I've reiterated over and over again that I've never said Moyes did a better job. My point has only ever been that Moyes was on a hiding to nothing from the start, while Van Gaal enjoyed a much easier ride up until the criticism started properly arriving in January. Beating Liverpool changes nothing for me, and don't assume you've already made the top four.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

I didn't reply as you rightly stated we were going round in circles.

The first two paragraphs we have gone back and forth on for a while, lets just say I blame Moyes for more than you.

But this idea that Moyes was 'on a hiding to noting from the start' is simply wrong and is trying to paint Moyes as the victim he never was.


You seem to want to judge Moyes in a vacuum. You say that the press took a negative tone on him from the start. But given the circumstances I'm not sure how you can portray the air of doubt that surrounded his appointment as completely unfair. Here was a man who had never won a trophy or even an away game against top 4,whose crowning achievement was finishing top 4 once being given the biggest job in world football replacing one of the greatest of all time.

What exactly would be fair treatment in your eyes? Should the press have waved away any doubts about him? There weren't any overly negative articles at the time just an air of doubt but I don't see how thats unfair. There was plenty of positive articles too, type Moyes good appointment into google and you'll see a raft of articles quoting players /former players on how its a good appointment. The head of BBC sport Phil McNulty called him ‘Fergusons natural successor'

In your previous comments you mentioned how Van Gaal didn't recieve the same negativity but again i'm not sure what else you can expect. Moyes was absolutely unproven taking over a genius whereas Van Gaal is a proven great taking over a shambles , of course the press was different. Tone depends on circumstance, you seem to want to take away all of that and judge him purely on some notion of needing more time.

Later on the year his press got worse (he still had plenty of defenders) but he absolutely deserved it. Our performances in big games, our points tally, the players demeanor everything was getting worse as the season progressed You say I dont want to give Moyes any credit for the start but that's because the longer he was in charge the worse we got. There is no doubting at the start of the year it was still Ferguson's team but the more it became his the worse we got.

You use the example of him being criticized for not changing the tactics enough and too much. Well thats right. We were still essentially playing a Ferguson brand of footballl with the main focus being creating from out wide but what he stopped was the runners from Midfield. Centre midfielders were not allowed to get ahead of the ball so yes he didn't change a lot but he did make us a lot more negative.


You don't want to judge him against Van Gaal, and I presume you don't want to judge him against Ferguson. Taken in isolation the season was a shambles. What do you want to judge him on? Your only defence of him seems to come from the fact he got a bit of ridicule and he thought he had time

Well firstly Managers who did better jobs than him got far more stick, see AVB, Wenger or even Rafa for examples. It comes with the territory. Secondly he clearly knew top 4 was a requirement given the clause in his contract. Had he just missed that due to the rest of the top teams performing so well after showing signs of improvement he'd still have had my backing and likely a job. He failed miserably in every aspect. Watching those games against Liverpool and city compared with how we have done this year against the top teams is night and day.

He quite simply was a disaster。 Yes given time he may have turned it around but United's job is to look after United not David Moyes and on the balance of probability all the evidence at hand he had to go. That decision has been thoroughly vindicated this year.

 

[thespus]

Depending how LVG does against City, Chelsea, and Arsenal down the stretch, it may not be such comfortable praise. Liverpool aren't entirely out of the top 4 race just yet. I do think he is better than Moyes, but I still find his season underwhelming given the investments made. Herrera is the only signing I can see being an important cog in a challenging side. Rojo seemed more a flavour-of-the-month signing than an astute, scouted addition.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Di Maria? I know he's been erratic so far but if he gets his shit together he will be one of the best players in the league.

Also for the money spent Blind and to a lesser extent Rojo were excellent signings.

Blind is such an intelligent footballer. He can play anywhere in midfield and defence and put in a good performance. Teams tend not to have absolute first 11's these days and looking at it in terms of of first 15/16 he is absolutely good enough to play a big role in a title challenge. Perfect squad player.

As for Rojo, people when we signed him seemed to just decide he was shit based off a few world cup games he did fairly well in. I'm pretty sure it was you one here praising City and Liverpool for sorting their defensive issues out whilst completely ignoring the fact we'd signed Rojo.

He's not without his faults but he was just as good as Mangala in Portugal by all accounts. He has performed better than Mangala and Lovren at a fraction of the price and isn't a complete crock like Vermaelen . Given the money spent on central defenders in the summer I'd say we did well.

Shaw is so young but you can see he is going to be a good full back. If he reaches his potential and gives us the years of service he'll be a bargain.

Apart from swapping Welbeck for an on loan crock and paying 15 million too much for Di Maria I'd say working in such a time constricted period under pressure to replace key players Van Gaal did about as well as could be expected.

 

[Steady]

@Scruff...

My whole 'theory' that Moyes "was on a hiding to nothing from the start" is an opinion very much built on the revisionism that continues to pervade his time at United. I've highlighted enough times now how many claim he 'inherited a title-winning squad' which, in essence, is true. Look beyond that though. The players that you claim had to be replaced by van Gaal (again, a true statement in isolation), such as Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra, were never going to accept Moyes as manager. The reason? He wasn't Ferguson. Moyes attempted to ascertain some authority with simple methods, such as banning chips, and if a massively influential player on and off the pitch in Ferdinand throws a strop at that, there isn't much you can do. However much Moyes would've tried to change things from Ferguson's regime, the lack of a personal trophy haul would always be used as a stick to beat him with, rightly or wrongly.

Was he treated fairly at the time by those in the media? From my perspective, more often than not it was unfair, but I'm speaking from a much different position than you in that respect. Good things and bad things, as with everything, were written or said about him before, during and after his tenure, which is natural. I just found that more of the unnecessarily bad dominated.

This following quote...

Moyes was absolutely unproven taking over a genius whereas Van Gaal is a proven great taking over a shambles , of course the press was different.

...shows what I mean. His past, not his present, was used to judge his results in the then-present. Van Gaal enjoyed a much more relaxed and positive reception because of what he'd won previously. Personally speaking, I don't think it should matter whatsoever, and I don't see what people expected Moyes to do. Was he a success at United? No, far from it. He was bad, very bad at times, but this was accentuated because he'd only ever managed as high as Everton and had never won anything there. Brendan Rodgers had never won anything when he joined Liverpool and he struggled from the get go in a similar if slightly better manner, but I can't remember ever hearing anything about his managerial past or the amount of trophies he'd won. When Liverpool were doing terribly this season nothing was ever said of Rodgers' lack of trophies, but with Moyes it became the norm to use it against him.

That's the other thing I don't understand, in that Moyes deserves no credit for your decent start to the season last year and deserves most, if not all, the flak for the 'poor' start this season. I just think that seems overly critical, but there you go.

I will add that you boys have kicked on considerably over the last month, and Van Gaal deserves huge praise for it. I doubt anyone would've tipped you to be above City at this point in the season if asked around February/March time.

 

[Mr. Scruff]

There is plenty in there I disagree with.

Namely the fact you put all the blame at the players draw and say they would never have accepted him simply for not being Ferguson. Quite simply we ave no idea if that's true or not. We know of at least one decision that harmed him. his sacking of the coaching staff so that he and Steve Round could run the training. Cut it which way you like but replacing the men who had coached these players to multiple league wins was bad management both in terms of football and man management. I think his failure to manage egos despite the fact that at times senior players behaved like twats is evidence he was simply incapable The chips thing is just the culmination of poor man management.. When you are working under someone you don't like or feel is inadequate little things spiral in your mind

There was no decent start to the season really as we played a fair few tough ones early on getting beat by City and Liverpool and drawing at home against Chelsea. It just wasn't as bad as the embarrassment later in the season where we got decked by anyone in the top half. It was still below standard but he got the benefit of the doubt from pretty much everyone at that time. Even in his best moment, the 1-0 at Arsenal we ground out a victory rather than played anything close to what we are/were capable of.

Anyway the crux of the matter is this. I agree that at times the criticism he got was undeserved though he is no different to any manager in that respect. there was far more reason to disparage him than AVB at Spurs or Pardew at Newcastle for two of just may examples. I agree that he is a good manager and given time there is a slim chance he could have turned it around. I agree that due to his comments towards the back of the season I grew to absolutely despise him and am probably not fair when it comes to his time at United.

All that said you have repeatedly used these as a defense as to why he should have stayed and how he was on a hiding to nothing and ''deserved more time' is deflection.

He alienated a lot of the players already at the club, his sole plan to progress seemed to be to spend a shitload of money, he was responsible for out worst season in premiership history by an absurd distance, he pissed off the fan base with some ridiculous comments, our style of play was the worst I've ever seen a United team play,we were humiliated by our 2 most hated rivals in the most abject displays I've ever seen.

It was probably a harder job than most thought in retrospect. Yes he had problems that weren't all down to him but even taking into account these he did a spectacularly awful job. Whoever made that decision was tasked with doing what was best for Man Utd not what's fair to poor David Moyes. In sacking him they took the only sane action looking at the circumstances could have led to. Despite some problems he in no way merited more time and in no way deserves sympathy for being given the chance of a lifetime and at best playing a large part in absolutely fucking it up.

 

[Nilsson]

Thought this was a good analysis on the game and how we're playing

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=920450038006814

 

[Jarv]

Interesting Analysis of Rooney.

 

[Christian Slater]

Those two have a great knack of making you feel oblivious about the game.