The world's gone mad thread

[Abertawe]

Yikes. RIP competitive women sport.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/2...or-womens-category-at-commonwealth-games/amp/

 

[Silver Stone]

Yikes. RIP competitive women sport.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/2...or-womens-category-at-commonwealth-games/amp/

What's your solution then? Ban all trans people from sports? That's extreme.

 

[Abertawe]

What's your solution then? Ban all trans people from sports? That's extreme.

Yeah. Competitions that were divided into male & female in the interest of competitiveness, it's extreme for that basic premise to be sustained in this new mad world.

No reason why a trans comp couldn't run alongside the men's & women's. No need to ruin & hijack women's sport.

 

[Silver Stone]

Competitions are no less competitive with trans people involved. The article says her testosterone levels are within their guidelines, so what's the problem?

 

[Abertawe]

Am I being trolled?

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

Imagine getting so upset over something with zero bearing on your life.

 

[Abertawe]

Imagine getting so upset over something with zero bearing on your life.

Imagine not understanding you're being prepped to be a robot. Only joking. I'm not upset dawg although I do enjoy watching competitive female sport (don't you?) so this hijacking does affect me somewhat. It's the women I feel sorry for as they can't compete with man strength. If anyone can make an argument as to why transitioned male to females should be competing against females I'd love to hear it rather than some pissy pants comment.

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

Okay well, as someone who knows more about this topic than literally anyone else on this forum, I'll give it a shot.

Testosterone is vitally important to muscle growth. It stimulates tissue and an increase of growth hormones. This is why males are more muscular than women, since they produce testosterone in much greater quantities.

Trans women (who are medically transitioning), take a combination of estrogen and testosterone blockers. The estrogen obviously promotes growth of the breasts and redistributing fat to the hips and rear (as well as softening hair and skin but that's just a lovely side effect). The T blocker (usually spironolactone) is for trans women who have yet to have surgery, and is no longer necessary after.

Now, any endocrine doctor worth their salt will make sure a trans woman's hormones sit within a certain range, identical to an average woman (who of course, have fluctuating hormone levels of their own). This being the case, it's not physically possible for a trans woman to build muscle mass and strength any easier than a cis woman. You may have a point about the weightlifter in that she competed as a male previously and likely built much of her muscle during that time, but for most other sports (ones where brute physical force isn't necessary) there's no reason a trans woman can't compete on a level playing field with cis women.

 

[Abertawe]

^^talk about moving the goalposts. Maybe an apology considering you've conceded on the circumstance in question?

Moving on unless transition takes place prior to puberty (which is simply sick) you cannot discount the potential for unfair advantage no matter the sport cuz science.

Slippery slope. Take Yohan Blake @ Rio. His time of 9.93 saw him 4th but had he changed to Yvonne it'd be gold medal glory with almost a full second to spare.

Let's just have a trans format. Nice & fair. These poor girls devoting their whole lives to accomplishing their dreams deserve protection from what is essentially the ultimate in PEDs.

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

Did you listen to a word I said?

I said "may" about the weightlifter, but even then it's doubtful.

Puberty makes no difference. I really don't think you understand the effect of Estro plus T-blockers/no T; it obliterates your strength and is pretty much the first physical aspect of transition you notice.

It's okay though, some guy from the internet must know more than actual trans women and scientists whose job it is to know these things.

 

[Abertawe]

^^the only thing you've said there is they wouldn't sustain their cis performance levels. They would still have massive advantage over the rest of the field, cuz ya know, science. From the small sample we've got we can see transitioned to female athletes have gone on to dominate their field.

Anyone advocating this madness must really hate women, sad.

 

[Abertawe]

Etienne Vermeer some science. Even post transition bones don't become less dense, male advantages like lung capacity, brain density, stronger ligaments, blood count doesn't suddenly drop to average cis female levels.

If there is no difference why aren't female to male athletes succeeding like male to female are?


From the CDC: Ogden et al (2004). Mean Body Weight, Height,and Body Mass Index, United States 1960–2002 Advance Data from Vital and Health Statistics, #347, 11/27/2004

Women's Strength Training Anatomy By Frederic Delavier

From the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons: Timothy E. Hewett. "Why women have an increased risk of ACL injury"

From the Journal of Applied Physiology: Janssen, Ian; Heymsfield, Steven; Wang, ZiMian; Ross, Robert (1 Jul 2000). "Skeletal muscle mass and distribution in 468 men and women aged 18–88 yr".

From University of Washington: "Muscle Types and Sex Differences". (1993)

From The Journal of Physiology & NCBI: Maughan RJ; Watson JS; Weir J. "Strength and cross-sectional area of human skeletal muscle" (May 1983)

From The Journal of Psychosomatic Medicine: Olweus D; Mattsson A; Schalling D; Löw H. "Circulating testosterone levels and aggression in adolescent males: a causal analysis" (1988)

From the European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology: Miller AE; MacDougall JD; Tarnopolsky MA; Sale DG. "Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics". 66 (3): 254–62. (1993) abstract

Glucksman A, "Sexual Dimorphism in Human and Mammalian Biology and Pathology." (1981)

From European Journal of Applied Physiology: Leyk D, Gorges W, Ridder D., "Hand-grip strength of young men, women and highly trained female athletes". (3/2007)

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

You literally looked up all that information and next to none of it is relevant.

You're reaching so hard, and again, completely ignoring the effects of HRT.

 

[Abertawe]

HRT doesn't dissolve every male trait/advantage. You're acting like hrt erodes everything that makes the male sex. Show me the science.

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

Trait no, advantage absolutely yes. Right now your only evidence is a couple of trans women excelling in their field.

 

[Abertawe]

So just to be clear are you saying transitioned females don't have an advantage over cis females? If so where is your data...

 

[Etienne Vermeer]

This debate started with you saying they did. It's up to you to prove the point. You can't ask me to prove your opinion wrong, that's like asking for proof that God doesn't exist.

 

[Abertawe]

Playing silly beggars, shame.

I don't believe my theory (based on everything we know about science) is outlandish. If anything the suggestion you can go from f to m and not retain ANY physiological advantages is the ABSURD view point which requires substantiating.

Mine is a view based on logic and free of emotional bias. If you can say the same then show me the data.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

It's not beyond the wit of humankind to introduce a tariff system for transgender athletes in events where their previous gender can be determined as giving them a physical advantage.

The athlete could then take part and with his / her performance adjusted accordingly to ensure a level playing field.

 

[Abertawe]

Sounds like an absolute minefield. You'd have legal challenges surely. I honestly don't see why we can't have a transitioned segment to run alongside cis male & female.

As I say if there is no advantage we'd be seeing female to male winning but we don't. I'm just a man looking out for the women. It's simply bullshit and completely unfair on them.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

Sounds like an absolute minefield. You'd have legal challenges surely. I honestly don't see why we can't have a transitioned segment to run alongside cis male & female.

As I say if there is no advantage we'd be seeing female to male winning but we don't. I'm just a man looking out for the women. It's simply bullshit and completely unfair on them.

Nothing can be done, so do nothing, eh..?

Separation of the 'abnormal' from the 'normal'. Put the freaks in a different category so all the normal people don't have to have anything to do with them..? Sporting apartheid..?

Never lived in a ghetto, have you..? Never known what it's like to be treated as 'different'..?

I'm afraid that's not what inclusiveness is supposed to mean, and inclusiveness is what this is all about.

I'm sorry if I come across as sounding harsh and please be assured, I'm not taking a pop at you personally Aber. I'm using stronger rhetoric than I usually would to make a point..... taking the proverbial walk of a mile in their shoes for a moment.

The most noble ethic in sport is that it's not about the winning, it's about the taking part. Baron Pierre de Coubertin understood that and made it his Olympic ideal. In my opinion he was right to do so. Inevitably though, that ideal throws up challenges that I believe should be faced and overcome rather than surrendered to.

I suggest the tariff system as a practical solution to which everybody can agree, and which will ensure that there is the closest standard of participation between all in the global sporting community. If there's another, better proposal that ensures full inclusion I'd be delighted to read it.

The tariff system works in other sports and some are very complex. Try working out the scoring system in Ski Jumping, or calculating a Duckworth / Lewis run rate in cricket without the aid of a computer, mate..!!.

When such a system is introduced the scientific /mathematical formulas are invariably agreed by all participants provided they are seen to be fair and proportionate from the outset. That means getting all interested parties together beforehand to discuss how it will be done,and to agree the final outcome before competition takes place.

As for challenges and complaints, I would suggest that it is in the interests of the transgender community to be flexible and open minded towards any such system. After all, it is they who want to take part in competition. They have the most to gain. We're not dealing with petulant children going out of their way to block reasonable methods to include them out of spite.

And if there were any complaints, then that's alright too because it's only right and proper to address issues that arise, which I'm quite sure they would. Frankly, I'd be astounded if the organising body got it right first time.

But that's how any 'wrinkles' in a system get ironed out. Eventually a fair and equitable system is established which serves all parties as best as possible.

But not doing anything at all is, in my opinion, not an option. The status quo is not satisfactory.

 

[Liam_SWFC]

What's all this bollox about trans people, you are born a bloke or a woman. If you think you are anything else then it's a mental issue.

 

[Etty Abrics]

Thanks Dr Liam

 

[Blitzballer]

I'm transpecies

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Would it not be simpler and fairer to just segregate based on sex rather than gender? If you're M2F and you can't compete with the men tough shit, the F2M couldn't either.

 

[Johnnyt]

Id like a test on a few footballers tbh starting with Firminio at Liverpool.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

Would it not be simpler and fairer to just segregate based on sex rather than gender? If you're M2F and you can't compete with the men tough shit, the F2M couldn't either.

That's rather bucking the issue in my opinion. Come on, I think we canThis do better than that.

The advance of human social evolution requires a progressive attitude in sport which, after all, is greatly concerned with human aspiration. If we dismiss the aspiration of a group of humans or reduce it to a "take it or leave it" situation then sport loses a part of its meaning.

Transgenders are people.... they are human beings.... and they have ambitions, desires, and life-objectives the same as anybody else.

And let's be clear about something.... the core principle isn't necessarily about whether or not they have any sort of advantage in terms of winning gold medals or championships, it's about whether or not they can take part at all.

We must first accept that they can participate. Let's agree on that first. If that position is established, then we can deal with the issue of the Level Playing Field.

I was once involved in a discussion about Oscar Pistorius' (pre-Riva Stienkamp murder) alleged "unfair advantage" from running on blades. One person stated that blades gave him an unfair advantage in an upright sprint. I countered this by pointing out that starting from blocks put him at a disadvantage because he had to get into the upright position using his knees and quads. To start effectively from blocks requires a functioning pair of Achillles tendons....... which he (and other blade athletes) doesn't have. The point was that there are bound to be advantages and disadvantages which, if they can be scientifically quantified, can be adjusted within the scoring system.

It may mean that the first person across the finishing line isn't necessarily the winner in future, which may take something away from the thrill of the event for spectators, but at the end of the day, sport is about more than entertainment.

Nafissatou Thiam finished several places behind Jessica Ennis-Hill in the final event of the 2016 Olympic Heptathlon but won the gold medal overall. Nobody complained that the event was less exciting because the overall winner didn't win the final race. She scored the points that mattered. it was a competition based on a tariff system. If we can accept that for non-transgendered competitors, then why not for Transgendered..?

I haven't heard here - or in any other forum - any sort of convincing argument why adjusting the score on a tariff system wouldn't level out scientifically established biological advantages / disadvantages for an M2F or F2M transgender. It may take time to work out and may require some "tweaking" after implementation if / when problems arise, but I believe a fair and equitable system would emerge in the end.

I would be interested to read any convincing argument that might change my mind on this. Over to you, Gentlemen.

 

[silkyman]

To try and change this from a ‘Ew, Trans people are yucky’ thread into a genuine ‘world’s gone mad’ one...

Woman denied UK visa because her English is too good.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-42358339?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

That's rather bucking the issue in my opinion. Come on, I think we canThis do better than that.

The advance of human social evolution requires a progressive attitude in sport which, after all, is greatly concerned with human aspiration. If we dismiss the aspiration of a group of humans or reduce it to a "take it or leave it" situation then sport loses a part of its meaning.

Transgenders are people.... they are human beings.... and they have ambitions, desires, and life-objectives the same as anybody else.

So do people with a dodgy back or bum knees mate. They're entitled to be able to participate in sport, not excel in it.

 

[Cornish Piskie]

So do people with a dodgy back or bum knees mate. They're entitled to be able to participate in sport, not excel in it.

I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make there.

Are you suggesting the physically disabled shouldn't participate in sport because of their disabilities..? I suggest you check out the Paralympic Games which originated from the practice of Stoke Mandeville hospital using physical activity as a means of therapy or rehabilitation. Today, the Paralympics seem to be doing a pretty good job in presenting disabled people as competitive sportsmen and women.

But if you're saying that the fact they do not compete with abled people means that transsexuals should be treated as if they were disabled then I would disagree vehemently on two points.

Firstly, it is extremely insulting and degrading to suggest that transsexuals are "disabled" in any way by virtue of their transgendering. They are not. That kind of attitude comes from the patronising and archaic attitude that says homosexuality is a mental illness. That kind of sneering condescension has no place in society any more. That attitude has been consigned to the dustbin of history. And rightly so in my opinion.

Secondly, paralympic sport is not promoted in order to separate disabled people because they are disabled, but because there are so many forms of disability that no viable form of adjustment to mainstream sport can possibly allow for all the variables.

Could you imagine a race where, of the 8 participants, one is abled, one is blind, one has cerebal palsy, one runs on blades, one is in a wheelchair, one has balance and co-ordination impairment, one has upper body impairment and one has dwarfism...?

Of course, that would be ridiculous and utterly unmanageable. And so disability is accepted as a reason for having separate Games. The disabled are alright with this and are happy that they have a Games they can take part in at their own level. Everybody wins. Fair enough all round.

But I repeat, such a distinction does not apply to able bodied transsexuals and I again suggest there is an acceptable means by which they can compete and that their participation does not have to mean any party is disadvantaged in competitive terms.



ps.... Silkyman, let's not wander off topic here. We've got a good intellectual discussion going on and I for one would like to keep it that way, not turn it into an excuse for xenophobia-by-proxy.