US Police state

[Womble98]

Yeh the guy is especially a boss. When walking through the restaurant he moves the cutlery out of reach from the guy, seriously well trained.
And not that it really matters in relation to the cops subsequent actions but the gun he pulled was a bb gun so they would have been okay.

On reddit some were suggesting it was suicide by cop.

 

[Tilbury]

On reddit some were suggesting it was suicide by cop.

Yeh that's where I saw this.

 

[pontoonlew]

Yeh the guy is especially a boss. When walking through the restaurant he moves the cutlery out of reach from the guy, seriously well trained.
And not that it really matters in relation to the cops subsequent actions but the gun he pulled was a bb gun so they would have been okay.

I can see the headline now if the guy was black;

"White Cops brutally gun down innocent black man carrying a toy gun"

But he's white, so no media circus to see here...

 

[Tilbury]

Insightful as always.

 

[pontoonlew]

Insightful as always.

Just pointing out the total hypocrisy of the whole situation.

 

[Tilbury]

Just pointing out the total hypocrisy of the whole situation.

You haven't pointed out anything, you completely made up a quote and scenario.

 

[pontoonlew]

You haven't pointed out anything, you completely made up a quote and scenario.

You think throwing a hypothetical joke news headline is me quoting somebody? Are you thick?

And no scenario was made up either, a young kid was gunned down by police for having nothing more than a BB gun. It was his actions (just like this guy) that got him gunned down.

Only because he was black and because he was 12 (lets remember a gun is less dangerous in a childs hands) this board and the media went into a frenzy about it. Not saying this incident was wrong or badly dealt with, i'm saying there are similarities. Both had what appeared to be a live firearm, one grabbed his from his waistband, the other brandished it. Both got shot dead, one was a white man the other a black kid. Both turned out not to be live firearms. Same result. Different media coverage.

 

[Tilbury]

You said the reaction would have been different if he was black which is bollocks. That's why the body cams are so good, because they show exactly what happens. And other examples are completely irrelevant to this example, not sure why you're bringing them up.

 

[pontoonlew]

You said the reaction would have been different if he was black which is bollocks. That's why the body cams are so good, because they show exactly what happens. And other examples are completely irrelevant to this example, not sure why you're bringing them up.

There are enough news reports and protests relating to black peoples deaths (where police where completely cleared of wrong doing afterwards) to suggest there is more of a reaction to when a black person is killed than a white one. The fact it was only a BB gun should always be irrelevant because the police are not to know that unless it's still got the orange markings (even then at the split second it's not immediately obvious). So whether it's a 12 year old black kid or a white man there should be little difference in the media reaction, but there was and there continues to be. You simply cannot deny that.

It drives the hate towards the police, on occasions they are in the wrong and police do get prosecuted. You'll never see me defending that, but cases like this just highlight the hypocrisy of it all for me. But the way the media play on black peoples misgivings with the police infuriates me at times and only serves to make things 10x worse.

 

[Womble98]

Pontoonlew you are being a moron.


The difference between the two cases


12 yr old black kid

• Police are called, and told there is a kid with a gun.

This video with the white man

• Police are called and told a man has stolen something, no reports of a weapon.

12 yr old black kid

• Police drive right up to him with no regard for their own safety or anyone in the area, ignoring protocol.

This video with the white man

• Police approach cautiously, as shown in the videos, they then escort outside, taking care to remove possible things which he could use as a weapon, the cutlery.

12 yr old black kid

• Police KNEW there was some sort of firearm, yet went into it in a stupid and reckless manner.

This video with the white man

• Police were unaware of the gun, so when it was pulled on them, they were completely vindicated in their response. If they had ran in there knowing the guy had a gun then they too would have been lambasted for being stupid and foolhardy.

 

[pontoonlew]

They were fool hardy, but it didn't have an effect on what happened to the kid. They put themselves at risk by going into the situation like that, had they been further back the result would've almost certainly been the same. Besides all you've done there is tell me the story of what happened, the police in the latest video could've also done things differently. Primarily cuffed the guy as soon as they had him, that eliminates the threat almost immediately. Why are you putting yourself in a situation where you're hiding knives from a suspect? Put some bloody cuffs on him. Apart from that you're right, they handled it brilliantly and he was rightfully shot.

Let me ask you a question, in the situation of the black kid (now bare in mind the officer believed he was in his 20's) if you were in that exact situation, would you have shot him, yes or no?

 

[Womble98]

They were fool hardy, but it didn't have an effect on what happened to the kid. They put themselves at risk by going into the situation like that, had they been further back the result would've almost certainly been the same. Besides all you've done there is tell me the story of what happened, the police in the latest video could've also done things differently. Primarily cuffed the guy as soon as they had him, that eliminates the threat almost immediately. Why are you putting yourself in a situation where you're hiding knives from a suspect? Put some bloody cuffs on him. Apart from that you're right, they handled it brilliantly and he was rightfully shot.

Let me ask you a question, in the situation of the black kid (now bare in mind the officer believed he was in his 20's) if you were in that exact situation, would you have shot him, yes or no?

I can't remember exactly what happens: if the kid did indeed pull out a weapon or whatever it was, yes. But the problem was the way they rode up to him, that is where the majority of people are finding fault. And also the fact that they failed to offer first aid and left him to bleed out.

 

[pontoonlew]

I can't remember exactly what happens: if the kid did indeed pull out a weapon or whatever it was, yes. But the problem was the way they rode up to him, that is where the majority of people are finding fault. And also the fact that they failed to offer first aid and left him to bleed out.

So in the sense that both people pulled a gun on cops, both people were rightfully shot for those actions. In both situations the cops could've done something different to protect themselves before hand. These two incidents aren't too dissimilar apart from the obvious age difference (I'll stress again, the cop thought he was older).

So why on earth did one get worldwide media criticism and spark protests. Yet the other got realtively little attention from the media and generally praised?

It's not the incidents I question because I believe both had the inevitable outcome. It's again, the absolute hypocrisy of it all.

 

[Womble98]

So in the sense that both people pulled a gun on cops, both people were rightfully shot for those actions. In both situations the cops could've done something different to protect themselves before hand. These two incidents aren't too dissimilar apart from the obvious age difference (I'll stress again, the cop thought he was older).

So why on earth did one get worldwide media criticism and spark protests. Yet the other got realtively little attention from the media and generally praised?

It's not the incidents I question because I believe both had the inevitable outcome. It's again, the absolute hypocrisy of it all.

Are you deliberately choosing to ignore my posts?


People complained about what happened primarily because of the lunacy of the cops driving straight in there, and the fact that there just left him to die without trying to offer first aid.

 

[pontoonlew]

Are you deliberately choosing to ignore my posts?


People complained about what happened primarily because of the lunacy of the cops driving straight in there, and the fact that there just left him to die without trying to offer first aid.

As I've said, their lunacy was at risk to themselves it didn't affect the end result really. Just like hiding a knife from a suspect as opposed to handcuffing him is pretty daft.

I didn't see much first aid going on in the white guys video either. Similar amount of shots fired both times.

 

[Womble98]

As I've said, their lunacy was at risk to themselves it didn't affect the end result really. Just like hiding a knife from a suspect as opposed to handcuffing him is pretty daft.

I didn't see much first aid going on in the white guys video either. Similar amount of shots fired both times.

That's because the video cuts out a few seconds after he has been shot and before they even approach him, for all you know they tried for ages, or checked that he was dead. I can't find it right now, but there an article which stated that he was bleeding for quite a while on the floor and the police did nothing.

Moreover, it is just plain speculation that the same ending would have happened if they didn't ride up to him.

 

[pontoonlew]

I'm not sure what you expect a cop to do with a person he's just put 7-8 holes in with probably basic first aid equipment at best anyway. Recovery position perhaps? CPR whilst he bleeds out in 2-3 seconds? But I take your point.

And I'll keep my point raised, this story would've been much more likely to make the news had it been a young black man. The media would lap up the fact it was a 'toy' and revel in the stories of yet more riots. I'm yet to see anybody burn down their local Starbucks in the name of this white chap getting shot for being a dick.

 

[Red]

Pontoonlew you are being a moron.


The difference between the two cases


12 yr old black kid

• Police are called, and told there is a kid with a gun.

This video with the white man

• Police are called and told a man has stolen something, no reports of a weapon.

12 yr old black kid

• Police drive right up to him with no regard for their own safety or anyone in the area, ignoring protocol.

This video with the white man

• Police approach cautiously, as shown in the videos, they then escort outside, taking care to remove possible things which he could use as a weapon, the cutlery.

12 yr old black kid

• Police KNEW there was some sort of firearm, yet went into it in a stupid and reckless manner.

This video with the white man

• Police were unaware of the gun, so when it was pulled on them, they were completely vindicated in their response. If they had ran in there knowing the guy had a gun then they too would have been lambasted for being stupid and foolhardy.

MorDon sums everything up perfectly. Why the fuck Lew is on this race mission is beyond me.

 

[Womble98]

I'm not sure what you expect a cop to do with a person he's just put 7-8 holes in with probably basic first aid equipment at best anyway. Recovery position perhaps? CPR whilst he bleeds out in 2-3 seconds? But I take your point.

And I'll keep my point raised, this story would've been much more likely to make the news had it been a young black man. The media would lap up the fact it was a 'toy' and revel in the stories of yet more riots. I'm yet to see anybody burn down their local Starbucks in the name of this white chap getting shot for being a dick.

I quote from wikipedia "Neither Loehman nor Garmback administered any first aid to Rice after the shooting. Almost four minutes later, a police detective and an agent from the FBI.. arrived on the scene to treat the boy.


He died the following day, he was very much alive.


I reject your claims in the second paragraph completely.

Tamir Rice, said 12yr old: Protests because of the police's actions and rashness, moreover, a judge has said that there is cause for a murder charge http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/11/tamir-rice-police-officer-murder-charge

Michael Brown: People protested as he was said to have been running away when he was shot.

Freddie Gray: People protested because he was manhandled, incorrectly and unsafely detained, evidenced by the charges the police officers now face.

Walter Scott: Shot in the back whilst running away and police officer tried to plant gun on him. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/07/south-carolina-police-officer-murder-charge



Show me a case where there is clear cut proof (video) of a black man attacking a police officer, the police officer having done things correctly, being killed, and protests being made about the killing, and I will concede defeat. The fact of the matter is that you can't.

 

[G.B]

MorDon sums everything up perfectly. Why the fuck Lew is on this race mission is beyond me.

It's mostly because he's a moron mate. Wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[pontoonlew]

I quote from wikipedia "Neither Loehman nor Garmback administered any first aid to Rice after the shooting. Almost four minutes later, a police detective and an agent from the FBI.. arrived on the scene to treat the boy.


He died the following day, he was very much alive.


I reject your claims in the second paragraph completely.

Tamir Rice, said 12yr old: Protests because of the police's actions and rashness, moreover, a judge has said that there is cause for a murder charge http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/11/tamir-rice-police-officer-murder-charge

Michael Brown: People protested as he was said to have been running away when he was shot.

Freddie Gray: People protested because he was manhandled, incorrectly and unsafely detained, evidenced by the charges the police officers now face.

Walter Scott: Shot in the back whilst running away and police officer tried to plant gun on him. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/07/south-carolina-police-officer-murder-charge



Show me a case where there is clear cut proof (video) of a black man attacking a police officer, the police officer having done things correctly, being killed, and protests being made about the killing, and I will concede defeat. The fact of the matter is that you can't.

You don't know why they didn't give first aid, there could've been any number of reasons.

Some of the cases there resulted in prosecution, something I'll never ever argue. But how many killings or incidents by police go on per day in the USA? You can name 2-3 where it can be said the police were very much in the wrong, brilliant stuff that's solved it. The U.S. police are racist murderers.

I don't understand your last paragraph, you want me to find a case of a black man killing a police officer? Are you serious?!

 

[SaddlerJonny]

I'm not sure what you expect a cop to do with a person he's just put 7-8 holes in with probably basic first aid equipment at best anyway. Recovery position perhaps? CPR whilst he bleeds out in 2-3 seconds? But I take your point.

You would need to put pressure on as many wounds as possible, and put him in the recovery position to wait for an ambulance. Anything possible to save his life, even if he is a criminal. Putting pressure on 1 out of the 7 wounds could be enough blood saved to save his life, in the UK at least all officers get rubber gloves and basic medical equipment to help treat wounds until paramedics arrive.

You definitely do not shoot someone and just let them bleed out.

 

[pontoonlew]

It's mostly because he's a moron mate. Wouldn't worry about it too much.

Well debate it then, there's no good calling me a moron then not saying anything about the cases in hand?!

 

[pontoonlew]

You would need to put pressure on as many wounds as possible, and put him in the recovery position to wait for an ambulance. Anything possible to save his life, even if he is a criminal. Putting pressure on 1 out of the 7 wounds could be enough blood saved to save his life, in the UK at least all officers get rubber gloves and basic medical equipment to help treat wounds until paramedics arrive.

You definitely do not shoot someone and just let them bleed out.

As said, I take his point. But quoting Wikipedia isn't exactly evidence on why he wasn't given first aid. Unless you have the full facts of the case that is.

 

[pontoonlew]

MorDon sums everything up perfectly. Why the fuck Lew is on this race mission is beyond me.

And why the fuck the media is on one is what I'm questioning, read what I'm actually saying.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

As said, I take his point. But quoting Wikipedia isn't exactly evidence on why he wasn't given first aid. Unless you have the full facts of the case that is.

I'm not trying to argue facts, I'm just giving some insight on proper procedure that should have taken place. Can't judge until the full details are known.

 

[pontoonlew]

I'm not trying to argue facts, I'm just giving some insight on proper procedure that should have taken place. Can't judge until the full details are known.

A bit of actual research shows me that a policeman who shoots a suspect cannot be the one who administers first aid. Though different situations do allow it to be done, i.e in Alaska where back up time is around 45 mins. And there have been cases in which a police officer has done so anyway. It's done for both safety and legal reasons.

So there's your answer as to why Tamir Rice wasn't given first aid.

 

[SaddlerJonny]

A bit of actual research shows me that a policeman who shoots a suspect cannot be the one who administers first aid.

So there's your answer as to why Tamir Rice wasn't given first aid.

This is also why many travel in 2's, the partner would give the first aid. There should also be officers nearby that could arrive quicker than the officers who should come and help too. The rules also changes with the jurisdiction too, there have been cases of officers shooting and then administering first aid onto them them themselves afterwords.
I'm going mainly off what I've been taught in the UK so my knowledge of the US police isn't the strongest.

Again, I'm not trying to take sides by the way.

 

[Womble98]

You don't know why they didn't give first aid, there could've been any number of reasons.

Some of the cases there resulted in prosecution, something I'll never ever argue. But how many killings or incidents by police go on per day in the USA? You can name 2-3 where it can be said the police were very much in the wrong, brilliant stuff that's solved it. The U.S. police are racist murderers.

I don't understand your last paragraph, you want me to find a case of a black man killing a police officer? Are you serious?!

No, I am asking you to provide an incident where a black man was shot by police, with clear video evidence showing him to be a real threat i.e. he pulled and was aiming a gun, and show me that there was an outcry after it.

 

[Womble98]

You don't know why they didn't give first aid, there could've been any number of reasons.

Some of the cases there resulted in prosecution, something I'll never ever argue. But how many killings or incidents by police go on per day in the USA? You can name 2-3 where it can be said the police were very much in the wrong, brilliant stuff that's solved it. The U.S. police are racist murderers.

I don't understand your last paragraph, you want me to find a case of a black man killing a police officer? Are you serious?!

No, I am asking you to provide an incident where a black man was shot by police, with clear video evidence showing him to be a real threat i.e. he pulled and was aiming a gun, and show me that there was an outcry after it.

You can name 2-3 where it can be said the police were very much in the wrong, brilliant stuff that's solved it. The U.S. police are racist murderers.

This shit again? Really?

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/1/5850830/war-on-drugs-racist-minorities -Blacks and whites use drugs at the same rate but are more likely to be arrested.


On average, black men's prison sentences are 20% longer than white men's for comparable crimes: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142...

African Americans are far more likely to be stopped and searched (although the contraband hit rate is higher among white people) in California:http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/...

And in New York (where the data isn't quite as good but appears to be comparable to CA): http://www.nyclu.org/content/nypd-qua...

Those wrongfully convicted and later exonerated by DNA are disproportionately African American: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Conte...

Black kids are far more likely to be tried as adults and more likely to receive life sentences: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/...

Black former convicts get fewer employer callbacks than white former convicts: http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/...

No.1= Racism from Police
No. 2 = racism from judiciary.
No. 3= Racism from police
No 4. Racism from police...


So on and so on.