VAR

[springerbfc]

Appreciate this doesn't affect our level (yet?) but what are people's thoughts about VAR?

Technology used to determine matters of fact (did it cross the line for example) instantly have been a fantastic addition to the game.

Technology being used to the nth degree to determine subjective matters by scrutinising super slo-mo replays from every angle imaginable for 5 minutes cannot be good for the game in any way.

It seems to me that the whole purpose of VAR (correcting obvious errors) has been lost in the implementation.

Every single goal is being reviewed
The tail is wagging the dog with offsides now being left to VAR
Some of the penalty decisions at the WWC have been dreadful
The scrutiny on keepers movements for penalties at the WWC has been farcical
Numerous handball decisions made at the 2018 World Cup and Champions League have been shambolic
The list could go on.

Sport should be about emotion and in my opinion, VAR in its current format is hugely detrimental.

 

[Harrier94]

VAR should only be used when a decision can be made in a matter of 30 seconds. The ref shouldn't have to run off the pitch to check. Offsides and clear and obvious fouls that the ref and lino's couldn't see are the only times it should be used really.

If it takes longer than 30 seconds then it's not clear and obvious and the game should just carry on.

 

[Chief Rocka]

I think you summed it up well springerbfc, it's a farce and I'm glad we'll probably never have it at these levels, it takes away the passion and the 'in the moment' experience, I think at every point in a team's history they've been done over by a dodgy decision that's cost them but that's football, these moments are the things people talk about and remember years down the line for better or worse.

Football at the top level is just a sterile non entity to me.

 

[Pink Panther]

Far too many marginal decisions are being overturned. On a lot of offside calls parts of the players bodies are overlapping and that's not offside for me, it's not a photo finish in the Olympic 100 meters. But then you get television superimposing computer generated gridlines on the screen and pundits calling for offside because the scorer had one foot goalside of the last defender on a freeze frame.

A lot of the penalty incidents are completely inconclusive or a matter of opinion even after half a dozen replays from different angles at different speeds.

I'd allow two replays at normal speed and unless there's a bloody obvious mistake the original decision stands.

 

[karlready]

I guess it might eventually get down to our level; goal-line technology would be very easy, and pretty cheap .The more contentious stuff would be a non-starter,lack of expertise in match and club officials would lead to chaos. Anyway,this is rules for some, and not others, different standards applying.
I hate the stop-start stuff; an American football game I attended took forever, and I fear that scenario, complete with “messages from our sponsor”will become the norm.

 

[chief]

VAR needs to take place in the background. This whole thing where the ref goes off the pitch to investigate the incident is shite.

 

[springerbfc]

VAR needs to take place in the background. This whole thing where the ref goes off the pitch to investigate the incident is shite.

I suspect that is just the politics - the referee's insisting that they make the final decision whilst the technology beds in. I would anticipate that changing fairly soon along with strict time limits for reviewing incidents (5-10 seconds max imo), especially once this farce come to the PL next season.

 

[Pink Panther]

VAR needs to take place in the background. This whole thing where the ref goes off the pitch to investigate the incident is shite.

It's theatre for television viewers. It must be infuriating for those actually watching at the ground.

 

[Super_horns]

VAR needs to take place in the background. This whole thing where the ref goes off the pitch to investigate the incident is shite.

I did read the Premier league weren't going to have all that and just let there be a conversation on the pitch like they have in rugby.

I am not sure a screen would help anyway - just adds pressure on the ref as he will need to make a quick decision with no doubt players breathing down his neck!

Its all because managers, players and some fans complain about almost everything an official might get wrong so now those in charge of the game think said people will want all decision checked out no matter how long it might take.

As people have said it will be never ending - you could look for a fault in every goal really!

And there still be disputes and debates about the decision made but instead of one ref getting it in the neck it will be 4/5!

 

[B2TF]

It was introduced on a false premise- that controversy could be eliminated and that the armchair fans are as important as those present at the game. All it's done is replace the old controversies with new ones and is killing the game in the process.

Football is not a TV sport created for armchair viewers to passively consume the images on their screen while shovelling down the popcorn. It is a living, breathing, stadium sport, and the magic is somewhere in the feedback loop between the fans and the players. The players get the fans going, the fans respond and the players are lifted, the fans crank up the atmosphere and the greatest games gain a momentum that turns mere sport into live theatre. Liverpool 4 Barcelona 0 is only possible in a stadium packed with 50,000 fans going steadily crazy. It could not happen in an empty stadium. No armchair fan has EVER contributed so much as a billionth of a decibel to this process.

Those in the stadium, the ONLY ones that count, are being robbed of the sweetest moments in the game, the moments that are the entire REASON why they love going to football in the first place. The ball goes in the net, everybody goes crazy. Until now, they knew instantly if there was a problem, because the ref told them so. What's happening now is that the ref signals a goal, the fans go wild, the players go wild, the players head back to the centre circle and line up to kick off again, and suddenly there's a problem! Even if the goal is given, the moment is ruined. If it's not, the fans are seriously pissed off. One day, I predict, this will cause a riot and the FA will have only themselves to blame.

 

[#Beebot]

I'm pro-VAR but it needs a lot of reform and needs to be more like rugby in terms of the communication being more open. Fans should be able to see replays and hear the discussion between ref and TMO.

VAR checks should be made immediately rather than flagged later. For example, Lingard's disallowed goal in the Nations League looked marginally off when the ball was played to him but there wasn't even a hint VAR were looking at it until a minute later.

 

[springerbfc]

I'm utterly amazed that anyone can be pro-VAR based on all the evidence so far. It needs a huge overhaul if it is to stop ruining games.

I'd start by reverting the offside rule back to "benefit of the doubt" to the attacker. That way, VAR could have a margin of error built into it of say a set distance. At the moment, it is far too subjective the fraction of a second the ball was kicked vs millimetres between attackers and defenders toes.

Said before, VAR should be able to make a decision and inform the referee of the decision (ie; no discussion necessary) within 2 or 3 seconds. And with offsides, you'd hope that this would then do what is supposed to do (ie; correct obvious errors).

 

[Seventyseven]

It was introduced on a false premise- that controversy could be eliminated and that the armchair fans are as important as those present at the game. All it's done is replace the old controversies with new ones and is killing the game in the process.

Football is not a TV sport created for armchair viewers to passively consume the images on their screen while shovelling down the popcorn. It is a living, breathing, stadium sport, and the magic is somewhere in the feedback loop between the fans and the players. The players get the fans going, the fans respond and the players are lifted, the fans crank up the atmosphere and the greatest games gain a momentum that turns mere sport into live theatre. Liverpool 4 Barcelona 0 is only possible in a stadium packed with 50,000 fans going steadily crazy. It could not happen in an empty stadium. No armchair fan has EVER contributed so much as a billionth of a decibel to this process.

Those in the stadium, the ONLY ones that count, are being robbed of the sweetest moments in the game, the moments that are the entire REASON why they love going to football in the first place. The ball goes in the net, everybody goes crazy. Until now, they knew instantly if there was a problem, because the ref told them so. What's happening now is that the ref signals a goal, the fans go wild, the players go wild, the players head back to the centre circle and line up to kick off again, and suddenly there's a problem! Even if the goal is given, the moment is ruined. If it's not, the fans are seriously pissed off. One day, I predict, this will cause a riot and the FA will have only themselves to blame.

I never in a million years thought I'd ever say this, but here goes.... I agree 100% with BFT2!*

*Make the most of it though, fella. It'll only happen once in my lifetime!

 

[#Beebot]

I'm utterly amazed that anyone can be pro-VAR based on all the evidence so far. It needs a huge overhaul if it is to stop ruining games.

I'd start by reverting the offside rule back to "benefit of the doubt" to the attacker. That way, VAR could have a margin of error built into it of say a set distance. At the moment, it is far too subjective the fraction of a second the ball was kicked vs millimetres between attackers and defenders toes.

Said before, VAR should be able to make a decision and inform the referee of the decision (ie; no discussion necessary) within 2 or 3 seconds. And with offsides, you'd hope that this would then do what is supposed to do (ie; correct obvious errors).

I'm pro but with the following changes:

- reintroduction of the "daylight" rule for offside (not sure why this was ever abolished)

- abolition of ref/linesman referred VAR - as is the case in tennis and cricket, players should do the referring

- limited number of failed referrals, as per tennis

- time limit on referrals, as per cricket

- abolition of totally subjective "clear and obvious" rule

- abolition of "game changing" decisions rule, if a bullshit yellow card, free kick or corner decision is made players should be allowed to use a challenge on it

- more controversially, introduce stop clock and abolish added time

- reduce match length to 70 minutes in order to mitigate for increased playing time as a result of above new rule.

- ref and VAR discussions and video footage to be shown in grounds.

 

[Super_horns]

Trouble is players appeal for anything so you can see them trying to use up a challenging a throw in on the half way line ...

Abd then try to claim it's still the wrong decision..

 

[springerbfc]

A trial of referrals made by players would be interesting. Capped at a maximum of say 1 per half perhaps, with an additional one added to extra time. Any unused can roll into the next period of play.

The above, with a time limit of no more than 30 seconds (ideally shorter) and the VAR has got to make the decision so no discussion necessary. If it's not clear, it stays with the referees original decision. That way, the referee is still in charge of the game, and does not rely on VAR to bail them out.

I also wonder about penalising teams for unnecessary use of VAR - if an original decision stands, the captain gets booked for time wasting perhaps. The focus has got to be on the flow of the game, not on getting every decision correct, as most decisions are completely subjective.

I'm not sure how effective this would be but it's got to be better than the current setup.

 

[springerbfc]

Oh and referrals are lost regardless of the outcome of the review.

 

[Harrier94]

Can't find anything to say that daylight was ever a rule.

 

[springerbfc]

They can trial this sort of rubbish on some tinpot tournament such as the Nations League or something. Do not bring this anywhere near top flight football until it is fit for purpose.

 

[#Beebot]

Trouble is players appeal for anything so you can see them trying to use up a challenging a throw in on the half way line ...

Abd then try to claim it's still the wrong decision..

If you give them a referral limit then it disincentivises them. Imagine how stupid a captain will look if he wrongly refers a throw on the halfway line and then he's used up his referrals when his opponents score an offside goal.

 

[springerbfc]

Can't find anything to say that daylight was ever a rule.

Offside rule used to award "benefit of doubt" to the attacker. It should still be that way regardless of VAR.

 

[#Beebot]

Can't find anything to say that daylight was ever a rule.

It was never a rule as such but a directive was given to refs in the early 2000s which seemed to fizzle out towards the end of the decade.

 

[Super_horns]

If you give them a referral limit then it disincentivises them. Imagine how stupid a captain will look if he wrongly refers a throw on the halfway line and then he's used up his referrals when his opponents score an offside goal.

Fair point - after a while common sense would come into play.

Bit like VAR in general - surely just use it for major incidents.

As I say though think refs are so scared to make their own decision now they want to use the VAR screen to check - and even then its not always clearly right!

Its coming in partly to try and stop the endless dissent during and after a game criticising officials but its not helping really as many decisions as so subjective.

We might see one ref give something via VAR that another ref doesn't...

 

[Master D]

I'm not sure we have to have every decision absolutely correct to the letter of the law, at the cost of taking emotion out of the game. Some decisions are debatable and still cannot be resolved even by looking at it several times on screen.

We've got by the previous 100 years just fine without this nonsense so leave it to the referees. It only conclusively works for goal-line and offside stuff, which is a clear yes/no answer. It should only be used for that, IMO.

 

[chipmunx]

VAR would have stopped that cheating tw@t Maradona in his tracks - he would have been red carded for the "hands of god goal" and the cheats career ruined. I'm all for it - if it can be done correctly and within 30 seconds.

 

[Steve_Wafc]

It’s going to be a good thing once we find referees and officials competent enough to use it. Can’t believe how long it takes to decide on clear offsides. You don’t even need special technology on the picture to see that, I can see it in 2 seconds, yet it gets deliberated for well over 20 seconds.

 

[chipmunx]

"the referee of England’s last-16 victory twice overruled VAR late on to prevent Cameroon players abandoning the match" The Telegraph can reveal.
"Qin Liang was concerned Cameroon would walk off the pitch when she rejected advice on a Fran Kirby penalty claim and refused to dismiss Alexandra Takounda for a scraped challenge on Steph Houghton."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-c..._FAM_New_ES_2019_06_25&utm_campaign=DM1038632

 

[#Beebot]

"the referee of England’s last-16 victory twice overruled VAR late on to prevent Cameroon players abandoning the match" The Telegraph can reveal.
"Qin Liang was concerned Cameroon would walk off the pitch when she rejected advice on a Fran Kirby penalty claim and refused to dismiss Alexandra Takounda for a scraped challenge on Steph Houghton."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-c..._FAM_New_ES_2019_06_25&utm_campaign=DM1038632

That's just cowardly. You can't subvert the rules of the game because you're scared of the opposing team.

 

[chipmunx]

That's just cowardly. You can't subvert the rules of the game because you're scared of the opposing team.

true - she shouldn't even be refereeing in Sunday league let alone the Women's World Cup if she's scared to enforce the laws of the game.
And it also proves Phil Neville was correct in his post match comments.

 

[springerbfc]

This story simply highlights one of the flaws with the current setup. There is no reason, other than the politics, for a discussion. The referee does not need to see a replay - if the decision is wrong, it gets overruled by the VAR. Quickly.