We want our country back.

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Jesus fucking Christ you're dense. Yes, I've invented a group of people that have, in the past, physically attacked me.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or is the "dense" accusation really just some form of projection? I obviously meant that you were re-imaging them as a fascist group instead of what they really are. That shouldn't have been difficult to discern given that, you know, I mentioned them myself in the post your first responded to.

 

[Red]

You're telling me I don't have a clue and then calling the EDL fascists in the next paragraph. A pro-multiculturalism, pro-LGTB, pro-Isreal fascist group? What a time to be alive. It's almost like the far-left is inventing fascists to justify their own thuggery.

Some NF there with their 14 words flag.

Yep, definitely some fat neo Nazis.

Not the cuddly little bunnys you're trying portray. They're not all neo nazis to be fair, some are just confused people (think Islamic ray guns)

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Where did I try to portray them as "cuddly bunnies"? This line of discussion first started with me dismissing them as hooligan halfwits. Although just to clarify, the first image is not an EDL demo it's a random counter-demo to an anti-jubilee party, the second isn't even the EDL, but you're right the third is a genuine EDL nazi ****. Though for every image like that, there's many more like this:

I think everyone accepts that they're full of idiots, but to paint them as a fascist movement is pure fantasy.

 

[Red]

Didn't say they were a fascist movement, just that there's fascists among them. How do you know the first demo wasn't an EDL demo? You weren't there were you?

EDL nutters oppose multiculturalism as well. I bet someone politely asked that boy to put his flag away. If homophobia was something they were genuinely opposed to why do they have to politicise it by bringing Islam into it? They're clearly not bothered about homophobia per se, only when Muslims are Homophobic. Couldn't they fit the Christian majority Uganda on their pink flag who are among the most serious homophobic offenders? Nah, no room for that they're not Muslims.

Fair enough that was the WDF, but it doesn't take a massive leap of the imagination to believe there are seig heilers in the EDL, the chap in the last photo is evidence of that.

They might not all be racists, but they're all bigots who pretend they only oppose extremist Muslims.

Will you be watching the BF doc tonight?

 

[smat]

What sort of fucking parody of TFF have I happened upon here?

 

[TheMinsterman]

I love the pink flag and the fact it has citations.

Top work.

 

[Stagat]

What sort of fucking parody of TFF have I happened upon here?

#YNWA

 

[blade1889]

Unfair of me to judge EDL/BF based on one person...but I'm about to anyway as they're the only person I know who supports them

On the lgbt issues they only ever use this as another reason to 'hate' Muslims. I've seen their comments on other lgbt issues (they arent speaking out against muslims) and whilst they aren't blatantly homophobic they don't support the issues raised or miss the point entirely.

 

[Red]

Unfair of me to judge EDL/BF based on one person...but I'm about to anyway as they're the only person I know who supports them

On the lgbt issues they only ever use this as another reason to 'hate' Muslims. I've seen their comments on other lgbt issues (they arent speaking out against muslims) and whilst they aren't blatantly homophobic they don't support the issues raised or miss the point entirely.

Exactly, if they were concerned about homophobia they'd be citing Uganda as a problem country, but as it's a Christian country they conveniently look the other way.

 

[Alty]

They have a bee in their bonnet about halal food too, but don't seem fussed about kosher.

 

[Alty]

They have a bee in their bonnet about halal food too, but don't seem fussed about kosher.

 

[Modernist]

well what a load of muppets. I know they don't have a brain cell between them it also looks like they don't own any mirrors either.

 

[Aber gas]

Some NF there with their 14 words flag.

Yep, definitely some fat neo Nazis.

Not the cuddly little bunnys you're trying portray. They're not all neo nazis to be fair, some are just confused people (think Islamic ray guns)

i think i might have smacked that last rat.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Didn't say they were a fascist movement, just that there's fascists among them. How do you know the first demo wasn't an EDL demo? You weren't there were you?

Reverse image search.

EDL nutters oppose multiculturalism as well. I bet someone politely asked that boy to put his flag away. If homophobia was something they were genuinely opposed to why do they have to politicise it by bringing Islam into it? They're clearly not bothered about homophobia per se, only when Muslims are Homophobic. Couldn't they fit the Christian majority Uganda on their pink flag who are among the most serious homophobic offenders? Nah, no room for that they're not Muslims.

I'm not sure how or why you'd try and incorporate Ugandan homophobia into a protest against extremist Islamic influence in Britain. That said, do I think LGTB issues are a tool more than a core concern? Not for all, but probably for most. The real question is, why aren't they a concern for progressives? Why is the minority within the minority, the gay and trans Muslims (and apostates too), being thrown to the wolves? Why is probably the most hateful, bigoted, sexist and homophobic ideology in the UK today getting a free pass? It's like progressives would rather turn a blind eye to deplorable discrimination within the Muslim community than challenge it and risk empowering conservatives in the process.

They might not all be racists, but they're all bigots who pretend they only oppose extremist Muslims.

I'm not going to contend that they're bigots, most probably are, just as most progressives are, but I've got no time for these paranoid delusions about people 'pretending' to hold positions they don't do.

Will you be watching the BF doc tonight?

Nope.

 

[Red]

I raised the homophobia in Uganda by way of illustrating that BF are quite happy to make known their dislike of Islamic homophobia, but have nothing to say about Christian homophobia. Might that be because they call themselves Christians? You must admit that it looks like they're only using the homophobia angle as another stick with which to beat Muslims and they're not actually concerned about homophobia. They're just opportunists.

The demo's in Luton and Rotherham were just pathetic in terms of numbers. It's difficult to reconcile that with the massive amounts of likes for their videos and posts on their website, but I suppose it ties in with Aber's thread about the far right and social media. It would seem a lot of people are happy to click 'like' on their site, but not pitch up to their demo's.

The programme was ok, but the reporter's voice was annoying. It's refreshing to hear a them admitting it's all Muslims they oppose and not just extremists. I think that might be why they told the bloke with the EDL logo on his hat to keep it hidden. Jayda came across as a really unpleasant person and Golding is just an utter twat.

The part where they stormed the restaurants and demanded they stop using Halal meat was funny. 'Or we'll be back next week!'

Totally made to look like fucking idiots saying that the tax on Halal food funds terrorism.

 

[The East Terrace]

They were even dumber than I expected. It wasn't helped by the smug presenter who simply wanted to out them as racists. It was never going to be hard to do that, just roll camera. Bit like hoping the Westboro Baptists Church will expose themselves as complete mongs, it just happens everytime these people speak. Thought the Police were a bit odd at the end though. Basically saying keep away as they are a bit nutty rather than dealing with the nutty people? Talk about take the easy way out. The documentary itself just showed a load of gobshites drinking lager, cheering and singing so didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know.

 

[Modernist]

They had more flags than people. What a joke.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

I find the taxi thing in Rotherham interesting.

Why are they opposed to cameras?

 

[The East Terrace]

They said several times they couldn't afford it. Not sure how much it would cost each driver so difficult to know if they are taking the piss or not. I guess over time people will only use the cabs that have it and they will be forced into it just to earn.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

They said several times they couldn't afford it. Not sure how much it would cost each driver so difficult to know if they are taking the piss or not. I guess over time people will only use the cabs that have it and they will be forced into it just to earn.

Hope so.

 

[The East Terrace]

Is it only Muslim driver who don't want it? Are there non muslim drivers who can't/won't pay for it? Make you laugh though, BF have called the film maker a Liberal Hippy today? Surely they agreed to him making the film and knew his background and that it would be for BBC? Not hard is it?

 

[Hooped Wizard]

Is it only Muslim driver who don't want it? Are there non muslim drivers who can't/won't pay for it? Make you laugh though, BF have called the film maker a Liberal Hippy today? Surely they agreed to him making the film and knew his background and that it would be for BBC? Not hard is it?

Black, white, Asian whatever they should all have cameras and it's concerning that some don't.

 

[The East Terrace]

Yes but the programme simply showed BF talking to a load of Asian drivers, who may or not have been Muslims, it would have been useful for the film maker to have found out if the drivers being asked were even Muslims and speak to ther drivers who didn't have it and ask them why. It was basically a load of idiots , shouting with a load of idiots. People are always tring to catch them out, rather than just let to catch themselves out which they always do by their behaviour. Film maker wanted to be the one to crack them, man did he fail.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

I'm not sure how or why you'd try and incorporate Ugandan homophobia into a protest against extremist Islamic influence in Britain. That said, do I think LGTB issues are a tool more than a core concern? Not for all, but probably for most. The real question is, why aren't they a concern for progressives? Why is the minority within the minority, the gay and trans Muslims (and apostates too), being thrown to the wolves? Why is probably the most hateful, bigoted, sexist and homophobic ideology in the UK today getting a free pass? It's like progressives would rather turn a blind eye to deplorable discrimination within the Muslim community than challenge it and risk empowering conservatives in the process.

You don't fight homophobia with racism. LGBT Muslims are oppressed by both racism/islamophobia and homophobia and you don't show solidarity with LGBT Muslims by using the latter as an excuse for dialling up the former.

There is a long history of far-right violence against LGBT people and many of the perpetrators of that violence have been associated with the EDL. The EDL have also directly associated themselves with virulently homophobic anti-Islam organisations abroad. There are also documented incidents of homophobic violence committed by the EDL.

It's credulous as fuck to suggest that this is an organisation that cares about the rights of LGBT people. Obviously "credulous as fuck" is your middle name, so it's sort of to be expected.

The weaponisation of LGBT liberation to fuel a racist agenda must be resisted. It's bad because it gives white homophobes a pass (by pretending it's a problem caused by PoC) and it's bad because it gives Muslim homophobes a pass (by pretending it's a problem with Islam rather than homophobes).

Obviously no-one should be tolerating homophobes anywhere and one of the many terrible things about UAF/SWP is their willingness to associate with soi-disant "community leaders" who have openly espoused homophobic positions.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

^ Very much this. The EDL's LGBT credentials are pretty much non-existent. I don't think we should refrain from combating homophobia in the Muslim community (on the contrary I think this is a wholly laudable aim) but groups like the EDL, with their modus operandi, who treat Muslims as a monolithic entity, who have a propensity for racism and violence, are hardly an appropriate vehicle for this.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

You don't fight homophobia with racism. LGBT Muslims are oppressed by both racism/islamophobia and homophobia and you don't show solidarity with LGBT Muslims by using the latter as an excuse for dialling up the former.

There's nothing remotely racist about protesting a Mosque that preaches discrimination.

There is a long history of far-right violence against LGBT people and many of the perpetrators of that violence have been associated with the EDL. The EDL have also directly associated themselves with virulently homophobic anti-Islam organisations abroad. There are also documented incidents of homophobic violence committed by the EDL.

It's credulous as fuck to suggest that this is an organisation that cares about the rights of LGBT people. Obviously "credulous as fuck" is your middle name, so it's sort of to be expected.

I'm not sure someone basing their argument on an association fallacy is in a position to make accusations of credulousness, though it's an odd criticism either way given that I agreed that the EDL were probably using this liberal form of attack as a tool in the post you're responding to. It's no different, however, than Antifa and the like protesting white conservatives on the basis of illiberality when they have no interest in fighting it elsewhere.

The weaponisation of LGBT liberation to fuel a racist agenda must be resisted. It's bad because it gives white homophobes a pass (by pretending it's a problem caused by PoC) and it's bad because it gives Muslim homophobes a pass (by pretending it's a problem with Islam rather than homophobes).

It's not a racist agenda though, or at least it needn't be. And by painting it as such you're giving Islam a pass by pretending that Islam isn't part of the problem, when it so obviously is. The scripture is overtly and inescapably homophobic, and that necessarily manifests in the people that it's preached to. You're just racializing Islam to try and escape your liberal responsibilities.

 

[Red]

You're assuming all Muslims strictly adhere to their scripture though and they don't. All Muslims might have homophobic thoughts (which I doubt), but they certainly don't all act on those thoughts.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I raised the homophobia in Uganda by way of illustrating that BF are quite happy to make known their dislike of Islamic homophobia, but have nothing to say about Christian homophobia. Might that be because they call themselves Christians? You must admit that it looks like they're only using the homophobia angle as another stick with which to beat Muslims and they're not actually concerned about homophobia. They're just opportunists.

It's nothing unique to them though, people often end up defining themselves by their perceived opponent rather than their actual principles. It's not like Antifa are out protesting hate-preaching Mosques either. It could be much worse I suppose, like the No Borders activist who was gang raped by migrants and then coerced into silence by her fellow activists for fear it would 'hurt the cause'.

You're assuming all Muslims strictly adhere to their scripture though [...]

Oh I'm certainly not. I'm very thankful that most religious people are hypocrites. You cannot deny however that overtly homophobic scripture being taught as the teachings of an omniscient super-being is always going to lead to more homophobia though.

 

[Red]

It's nothing unique to them though, people often end up defining themselves by their perceived opponent rather than their actual principles. It's not like Antifa are out protesting hate-preaching Mosques either. It could be much worse I suppose, like the No Borders activist who was gang raped by migrants and then coerced into silence by her fellow activists for fear it would 'hurt the cause'.



Oh I'm certainly not. I'm very thankful that most religious people are hypocrites. You cannot deny however that overtly homophobic scripture being taught as the teachings of an omniscient super-being is always going to lead to more homophobia though.

It certainly will, but Muslims haven't got a monopoly on that and that is why I find it irksome that BF don't acknowledge that. They won't because they're Christians and some Christians are openly homophobic. Not to the extent that Muslims are perhaps.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

There's nothing remotely racist about protesting a Mosque that preaches discrimination.

Depends who's doing it. A Muslim LGBT group doing it clearly wouldn't be racist. A multi-ethnic group that regularly protested other institutions that gave platforms to homophobes, both faith-based and secular, would get a pass too.

A far-right street movement who's MO is to run up and down the street chanting "Who the fuck is Allah" at non-white people, whose concern for gay rights is such that they regularly host known homophobes picketing a mosque because it gives a platform for bigots? Nah, that's dodgy as fuck.

I'm not sure someone basing their argument on an association fallacy is in a position to make accusations of credulousness, though it's an odd criticism either way given that I agreed that the EDL were probably using this liberal form of attack as a tool in the post you're responding to. It's no different, however, than Antifa and the like protesting white conservatives on the basis of illiberality when they have no interest in fighting it elsewhere.

It's not a "liberal form of attack". It's pink-washing. Adopting a particular stance as a shield to deflect criticism from their own racist, fascist actions. It's no different to the way Israel use LGBT rights (conveniently omitting that they blackmail LGBT Palestinians as standard operating procedure).

And I don't think "antifa" (not actually antifa) protest the conservatives on the basis of illiberality. It's that they're passing laws that literally kill people. I protest the things that hurt me, my friends and my community. It would be weird for me to go and protest homophobia at a mosque unless a muslim friend/comrade asked me to.

It's not a racist agenda though, or at least it needn't be. And by painting it as such you're giving Islam a pass by pretending that Islam isn't part of the problem, when it so obviously is. The scripture is overtly and inescapably homophobic, and that necessarily manifests in the people that it's preached to. You're just racializing Islam to try and escape your liberal responsibilities.

Christianity/Judaism preaches death upon not just gays, but upon wearers of clothes woven from more than one fabric. The fact that we don't stand outside Primark with bags of rocks is that even the most devout contextualise scripture. Pretending that homophobia is enshrined within Islam any more than stoning beard-trimmers is enshrined within Christianity does fundamentalist, homophobic mullahs' work for them and makes it that much harder for LGBT Muslims to juggle both their faith/ethno-religious identity and their sexuality.