Who will you be voting for? One week to go, has your mind changed from last time?

[blade1889]

The Greens strike me as ridiculously ideological with ideas that wont ever work in practise. Labour will no doubt mess up the economy. UKIP id never vote for in a general election. Mainly a Tory voter but will vote Lib Dem as ib my area it almost definitely Labour with a slight chance of Lib Dem or UKIP

 

[Red]

"Stop unfair sanctions on the poor and disabled"

1. Lib Dems have removed 3 million lower paid people from income tax by raising the income tax threshold.
2. Introduced a banking levy to make sure banks pay a fair share
3. Created a green investment bank
4. Extra funding to disadvantaged children in schools

I won't say anymore, will let you have a look at it - http://whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/

But the lib dems are the one party who has a record of standing up for environmentally friendly policies and has a chance of holding some power.

You quoted the part of C&B's post that mentioned him wanting a party that stops unfair sanctions and then listed 4 thing totally un related to benefit sanctions. Not sure what the relevance of that is. I don't need to read the link to know that that the Lib Dem's have no plans to overhaul the system of sanctions. None of the three main parties do. My position remains the same. In a constituency where Labour could potentially lose so I'll be voting for them (holding my nose). Would rather be voting Green.

 

[Womble98]

You quoted the part of C&B's post that mentioned him wanting a party that stops unfair sanctions and then listed 4 thing totally un related to benefit sanctions. Not sure what the relevance of that is. I don't need to read the link to know that that the Lib Dem's have no plans to overhaul the system of sanctions. None of the three main parties do. My position remains the same. In a constituency where Labour could potentially lose so I'll be voting for them (holding my nose). Would rather be voting Green.

I would probably vote green if they had someone a little bit more inspiring in charge, and didn't have a fragments of pure stupidity in their manifesto. .

 

[SaddlerJonny]

Before I had no clue because they were all the same to me.

Then I was voting for Lib Dems cause I did a internet question thing and they said my views alligned with the Lib Dems the best.

Then I did research, watched all the debates and tried to pay attention to news, debates on reddit and forums - trying to stay on top and in formed. Going Labour.

 

[jacobncfc]

Still not sure, but probably Labour because i've been told so much that Miliband is a disaster and any pact with the SNP would be a disaster that it's just got annoying and made me want to do it as a 'fuck off' gesture.

 

[Tilbury]

The Greens strike me as ridiculously ideological with ideas that wont ever work in practise. Labour will no doubt fuck up the economy. UKIP id never vote for in a general election. Mainly a Tory voter but will vote Lib Dem as ib my area it almost definitely Labour with a slight chance of Lib Dem or UKIP

Interesting. Anything in particular?

 

[SALTIRE]

Still not sure, but probably Labour because i've been told so much that Miliband is a disaster and any pact with the SNP would be a disaster that it's just got annoying and made me want to do it as a 'fuck off' gesture.

Indeed, I heard Cameron quote it last night as if a coalition between Labour and the SNP would be a bad thing - well Mr. king-of-the-Bullingdon-club Cameron, the country would in a far better shape under a Lab-SNP stewardship than the mess you and the Lib-Dems have made of it.

 

[blade1889]

Interesting. Anything in particular?

Obviously a heavily biased Torygraph ain't the best to use but even if this report was only half true id do a runner if they got into power

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...nce-tax-the-Green-Party-plan-for-Britain.html

 

[Ellis]

Interesting. Anything in particular?

- 60% tax rates
- 40% of women quotas on public businesses board of directors
- Higher council tax
- Scrapping the help to buy scheme
- 10:1 maximum pay ratios
- £180 per week payouts to everyone. (An absolute ridiculous policy to have on top of our current benefit and taxation system)
- Ending the national roads programme
- Reducing our army to something of merely border control.
- Reducing copyright to 14 years.

_____

Traditional outdated tax and spend policies which were dismissed as stupid back in the 70s. Utopian idealism isn't something we should be embracing.

Not to mention some of the outright stupidity like reducing copyright protection to 14 years.

 

[mnb089mnb]

- 60% tax rates
- 40% of women quotas on public businesses board of directors
- Higher council tax
- Scrapping the help to buy scheme
- 10:1 maximum pay ratios
- £180 per week payouts to everyone. (An absolute ridiculous policy to have on top of our current benefit and taxation system)
- Ending the national roads programme
- Reducing our army to something of merely border control.
- Reducing copyright to 14 years.
_____

Traditional outdated tax and spend policies which were dismissed as stupid back in the 70s. Utopian idealism isn't something we should be embracing.

Not to mention some of the outright stupidity like reducing copyright protection to 14 years.

Good thing with the 14 years issue is that immediately they said they'd look into it. The Green Party will often find themselves in difficulty because they have a very large well set out manifesto unlike other parties like UKIP who just live off soundbites with little concrete policy.

£180 would replace the current benefits I believe?

 

[mnb089mnb]

I'll be voting Green in a safe Tory seat. Though I have thought it may be better to vote Labour as an anti-Tory vote as a large number of Labour votes across the country may help the narrative of Labour having a mandate to rule if they don't get a majority on Thursday.

Our electoral system is a right old mess isn't it?

 

[Techno Natch]

Obviously a heavily biased Torygraph ain't the best to use but even if this report was only half true id do a runner if they got into power

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...nce-tax-the-Green-Party-plan-for-Britain.html

To be fair two of the things listed in the headline should be legal. Drugs and Sex work should both be legal and properly refulated. They are spot on with those policies.

 

[blade1889]

I'll be voting Green in a safe Tory seat. Though I have thought it may be better to vote Labour as an anti-Tory vote as a large number of Labour votes across the country may help the narrative of Labour having a mandate to rule if they don't get a majority on Thursday.

Our electoral system is a right old mess isn't it?

Aye, looking at the BBC 'poll of polls' (which is, admittedly, if all votes were counted as a percentage as opposed to the first past the post system....exact names I've forgotten)....anyway according to their current 'poll of polls' there couldn't even be a 2 party majority, let alone a 1 party. Could easily see this ending in carnage tbf.

Torries possibly getting a few seats more and looking to the Lib Dems again but possibly not having enough seats between them for a majority. Then what? The SNP wouldn't work with them and presumably the Greens and Playyd Cymru wouldn't...so then you have UKIP *shudder*.

The other option, presumably, would be labour having a few seats more and needing the SNPs support... *shudders again*

sod it, I'm emigrating

 

[blade1889]

To be fair two of the things listed in the headline should be legal. Drugs and Sex work should both be legal and properly regulated. They are spot on with those policies.

Not sure I agree Class A drugs should be legal for personal use.

And are the other policies worth taking on just for those two?

 

[Naitch]

I doubt they'd ever follow through with any of that shite, they just know they're in no danger of being elected so they can promise all that stuff without worrying about having to deliver it. I still see the logic in voting for them tho as the more popular they get the more those policies will moderate and become realistic, the same way UKIP have drifted away from privatised healthcare, flat tax, etc. as they've gotten more popularity and had their policies scrutinised more.

 

[Techno Natch]

Not sure I agree Class A drugs should be legal for personal use.

And are the other policies worth taking on just for those two?

All drugs should be legal, the class system is a complete joke and totally out of touch by the way. It is in no way a true representation of the danger of drugs and is led by outdated ideological views rather than being evidence
based. For example the fact that LSD is listed as class A despite being relatively safer than ketamine is a absolute joke.

I've said it a million times before but all drugs are dangerous, them being illegal though makes them more dangerous and also makes the impact on society much harder through penalising people for doing nothing more than wanting to experience drugs other than Alcohol and Tobacco. Both of which are incredibly damaging and addictive themselves.

We're slowly waking up to it here but it's taking time

I don't agree with a lot of what the greens propose but I do agree with the majority of their social policies. They are a good alternative vote at the moment.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

The other option, presumably, would be labour having a few seats more and needing the SNPs support... *shudders again*

Fuck it, I'm emigrating

Labour won't need to bow down to the SNP which is what people in Scotland will soon find out within a year.

They just demand their ideas or else, the only alternative is a stalemate which then lets the press Slate the SNP to high heaven as the reason for the country struggling, or else they allow Tory options stick instead.................between a rock and hard place for SNP.

and even then Labour could give ground on a couple of options but all that will happen is afew rebellious English Labour MP's will join forces with English tory and Lib dem MP's to completely vote out anything they hope to gain.

The only actual Gain SNP can hope for is that it may cause a divide to maybe win an Independence vote, but since a yes vote last year would now have seen Scotland in deep crap I am unsure if even a divide here will suddenly surge them into a yes position.

Scottish people are being fed a mass of lies that if they vote in SNP they will suddenly control Westminster, but what they will find in you'll have English MP's unite regardless of their UKIP/Tory/Lib Dem/Labour belief to stick 2 fingers back at them.

just won't happen and its all just Tory spin to frighten people to vote Conservative, and SNP spin to get people of Scotland voting for them.........the SNP one extremely well done and has grabbed a big mass of complete suckers into it.

 

[S2_Blade]

Been a toss up between Labour & UKIP, both people running are local compared to other parties.

I will go with Labour on Thursday, i went away from Labour at last election to Lib Dem but that vote just ended up been a Tory vote so will never vote Lib Dem while Clegg is party leader.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Good thing with the 14 years issue is that immediately they said they'd look into it. The Green Party will often find themselves in difficulty because they have a very large well set out manifesto unlike other parties like UKIP who just live off soundbites with little concrete policy.

That's being overly generous I think. Their policies are voted for by their members, and it shows. Their social policies are cobbled together and their economics ones don't add up.

£180 would replace the current benefits I believe?

I'm pretty sure they ditched citizen's income because even they realised that it was pure lunacy. They could only account for about 5% of what it would cost based on the changes they would make.

 

[blade1889]

All drugs should be legal, the class system is a complete joke and totally out of touch by the way. It is in no way a true representation of the danger of drugs and is led by outdated ideological views rather than being evidence
based. For example the fact that LSD is listed as class A despite being relatively safer than ketamine is a absolute joke.

I've said it a million times before but all drugs are dangerous, them being illegal though makes them more dangerous and also makes the impact on society much harder through penalising people for doing nothing more than wanting to experience drugs other than Alcohol and Tobacco. Both of which are incredibly damaging and addictive themselves.

We're slowly waking up to it here but it's taking time

I don't agree with a lot of what the greens propose but I do agree with the majority of their social policies. They are a good alternative vote at the moment.

So you'd legalise Heroine?

Sorry but regardless of what they are 'cut' with etc. the likes of Heroine, Ketamine, Cocaine etc. I would never legalise. It may make them safer to an extent but the risk that more people will take them is too high for me. Sure people will get hold of them whether they are legal or not but legalising them all sends out the wrong message and more people will end up using.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Their social policies are cobbled together and their economics ones don't add up.

They're well on their way to becoming a major party then?

 

[Techno Natch]

So you'd legalise Heroine?

Sorry but regardlessf what they are 'cut' with etc. the likes of Heroine, Ketamine, Cocaine etc. I would never legalise. It may make them safer to an extent but the risk that more people will take them is too high for me. Sure people will get hold of them whether they are legal or not but legalising them all sends out the wrong message and more people will end up using.

Unfortunately the evidence disagrees with you. In both Netherlands and Portugal where drugs have either been regulated or decriminalised drug use has either remained consistent with other countries who have punitive drug laws or it has actually dropped lower. The amount of health problems in Portugal related to drug use after their change in law dropped significantly while other countries rose. In particular rates of HIV and Hepatitis dropped and also other harms associated with criminalising users.

I went to talk last summer where the head of
health in Portugal said they would never go back to the old days and that the war on drugs had been a complete failure for the people of his country. They changed the law 14 years ago. I can find the notes if you're interested and whole load of other useful material.

Personally I expect that initially some people might experiment a bit more but then if they actually wanted to use drugs now they could easily find them. I've come across obscure illegal drugs before and it's surprising how quickly you can find someone who knows where to find it. People also won't suddenly think its a good idea to take Heroin because it's legal.

Smoking is a good example as well, its use has decreased, not because it was made illegal but because we have started to educate people on the dangers properly!

If people do want to experiment then isn't it better for them to go to a licenced pharmacy where they can buy something that they know is real and get straight health advice? Rather than going round Garys who doesn't even know whats in his shit but assures you its pure?

As for Heroin, I am glad you brought it up. Heroin is the perfect example of why drugs should be legal and properly regulated. When I worked with Heroin users it was quite regular for the purity of Heroin to bounce around from 20% to as low as 1%.

Now that causes a number of problems. The person who sells it doesn't know how strong
it is and the end user doesn't know either. If he gets a stronger batch and doesn't test it before taking his normal amount he runs a high risk of overdose or death. This is increased when you consider that often Heroin was cut with Benzodiazpams which is an awful mix and can reduce your heart rate even further. This is how nearly all deaths from Heroin use occur and it is also how the one overdose I witnessed happened.

So now comes the uncomfortable truth for some. Heroin is of course highly addictive, I would never suggest to people that it is a good idea to take it. However in its pure form it is actually quite hard to overdose on Heroin. It's long term effects on users is also not as damaging as say Alcohol or Tobacco. You can just stop taking heroin, the withdrawl is of course horrific but it won't kill you. If you have a alcohol addiction and you just try to stop it could cause you serious seizures resulting in death.

Having proper support, education, a clean supply, facilities such as Drug consumption rooms and needle exchanges can dramatically reduce the harm of Heroin, not just for the user but to their loved ones and society in general so damn right I would regulate the market properly and help remove the stigma and barriers that cause so many to avoid seeking help in the first place.

The above works for any other drug too. When we talk about drug regulation, it does not mean a drug free for all where you can walk into a supermarket and buy any drug you want. It means a proper regulated service, taken out of the hands of criminals and backed up by proper education and support. Like we do for any other activities that can have a risk for someone doing it. There is no room for "morality" when we talk about drug use because there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to put something into their own body.

Sorry for the long post I've written it on my phone so it might seem disjointed.

 

[HertsWolf]

It's interesting but the Verto tool, which compares peoples' attitudes towards a variety of issues and the policies of the various parties, shows incredibly high support for both the Greens (28%) and the LibDems (22%), with very roughly equal support for those two and Labour. The tool is obviously biased towards the younger vote, but still fascinating. Where I live, they would vote in a bag of dog poo if it had a blue rosette but Verto shows them in fourth place, with the Greens on 24%.

 

[hodge]

Being honest I don't particularly like either of the main 2 parties but I see Cameron as the lesser of two evils so to say compared to Milliband, considering I live in a constituency where it was tight between lib dem and conservative last time.

 

[blade1889]

Unfortunately the evidence disagrees with you. In both Netherlands and Portugal where drugs have either been regulated or decriminalised drug use has either remained consistent with other countries who have punitive drug laws or it has actually dropped lower. The amount of health problems in Portugal related to drug use after their change in law dropped significantly while other countries rose. In particular rates of HIV and Hepatitis dropped and also other harms associated with criminalising users.

I went to talk last summer where the head of
health in Portugal said they would never go back to the old days and that the war on drugs had been a complete failure for the people of his country. They changed the law 14 years ago. I can find the notes if you're interested and whole load of other useful material.

Personally I expect that initially some people might experiment a bit more but then if they actually wanted to use drugs now they could easily find them. I've come across obscure illegal drugs before and it's surprising how quickly you can find someone who knows where to find it. People also won't suddenly think its a good idea to take Heroin because it's legal.

Smoking is a good example as well, its use has decreased, not because it was made illegal but because we have started to educate people on the dangers properly!

If people do want to experiment then isn't it better for them to go to a licenced pharmacy where they can buy something that they know is real and get straight health advice? Rather than going round Garys who doesn't even know whats in his shit but assures you its pure?

As for Heroin, I am glad you brought it up. Heroin is the perfect example of why drugs should be legal and properly regulated. When I worked with Heroin users it was quite regular for the purity of Heroin to bounce around from 20% to as low as 1%.

Now that causes a number of problems. The person who sells it doesn't know how strong
it is and the end user doesn't know either. If he gets a stronger batch and doesn't test it before taking his normal amount he runs a high risk of overdose or death. This is increased when you consider that often Heroin was cut with Benzodiazpams which is an awful mix and can reduce your heart rate even further. This is how nearly all deaths from Heroin use occur and it is also how the one overdose I witnessed happened.

So now comes the uncomfortable truth for some. Heroin is of course highly addictive, I would never suggest to people that it is a good idea to take it. However in its pure form it is actually quite hard to overdose on Heroin. It's long term effects on users is also not as damaging as say Alcohol or Tobacco. You can just stop taking heroin, the withdrawl is of course horrific but it won't kill you. If you have a alcohol addiction and you just try to stop it could cause you serious seizures resulting in death.

Having proper support, education, a clean supply, facilities such as Drug consumption rooms and needle exchanges can dramatically reduce the harm of Heroin, not just for the user but to their loved ones and society in general so damn right I would regulate the market properly and help remove the stigma and barriers that cause so many to avoid seeking help in the first place.

The above works for any other drug too. When we talk about drug regulation, it does not mean a drug free for all where you can walk into a supermarket and buy any drug you want. It means a proper regulated service, taken out of the hands of criminals and backed up by proper education and support. Like we do for any other activities that can have a risk for someone doing it. There is no room for "morality" when we talk about drug use because there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to put something into their own body.

Sorry for the long post I've written it on my phone so it might seem disjointed.

I will have a look at Portugal and Netherlands, have to be honest I didn't realise there was anywhere in Europe that had decriminalised anything 'more' than weed. Do you have any links?

Your post ain't disjointed...although apparently you've quoted 'blade84 '

Totally agree that you can put whatever you want into your own bodies but surely the Heroine addicts and people you worked with who were coming off it wished they'd never done it? While ever there are those people I cant help but think preventing that use it better than just supporting them to do so. How you do that effectively I've no idea. Also agree that clean needles should be supplied, actually thought they were in some places?

Obviously if people do take them then you want it to be as safely as possible. Have to say I find drug use declining surprising. When I was younger if drugs were legal I cant help but think I'd possibly have 'experimented' the same way I did with alcohol.

Education is certainly the best way to go. Remember having talks from alcoholics and people who had been raped at school but never people who were addicted to drugs. Knowing through friends of friends people who have died from overdosing and knowing people who have been hospitalised due to mental illness that appears to be related to drug use its obviously not something id support doing or want to facilitate. But yeah, if you have any links to the Netherlands/Portugal stuff that you can send me then I'll have a look through!?

 

[SALTIRE]

but since a yes vote last year would now have seen Scotland in deep crap

 

[Stevencc]

Nothing like a reasoned argument to set someone straight, eh Salty?

 

[Techno Natch]

Yeah the heroin addicts I worked with that had long term addiction regretted it. Much like anyone who does anything that has such a negative impact on their lives regrets it. Someone who is addicted to cannabis will probably regret the first time they touched it, same for a drinker and same for someone who has problems with gambling.

I wish I never touched alcohol to be honest. The majority of people though use drugs at some point in their life without any problems at all and many of them on a fairly regular basis.

Yeah there are safe needle exachanges, that was partly what I worked in and I included them in the overall system that could really reduce harm from drug use. Regulating drugs is a very small part of the actual vision we have but it is a vital part and without it drugs will remain more dangerous than they need to.

Yes Education is vital and actually an effective deterrent to drug use compared to the law IMO. It needs to be honest though and not simply saying "DONT DO IT YOU WILL LOSE EVERYTHING AND DIE" because as most people find out when the experiment that isn't strictly true and you doubt everythig else you are told.

Knowing through friends of friends people who have died from overdosing and knowing people who have been hospitalised due to mental illness that appears to be related to drug use its obviously not something id support doing or want to facilitate.

This is the exact reason why I want drugs properly regulated. Has the current punitive system been any help to people that find themselves in trouble? That's why Portugal changed their system into one that treats it as a health problem rather than a criminal matter, so that people who do find themselves in trouble can get help sooner.

The current system where we criminalise drug use and keep it in the hands of drug dealers was a experiment in itself. When Reagan announced the "war on drugs" it was not done on evidence and nothing like it had been attempted before so it should be reviewed as the last 60 years have been a chorinc failure.

Then I could go on to talk about the effect this has on a global scale such as Mexico and the Philippines but I will go far to off topic and there is a drug policy thread further down.

I will happily send you some links over PM though and of course if you have a search through google you will find loads of information. Sometimes it is better to find your own way rather than have someone bombard you with their own stuff.

 

[SALTIRE]

Nothing like a reasoned argument to set someone straight, eh Salty?

He's a staunch right-winger, I'm not going to get him to see reason so there's no point mate.

 

[smat]

LOL