Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[sl1k]

If we're trying glean something from his experience that might go some small way toward explaining why someone would shoot up their countrymen for a foreign cause, then we're going to have to dig a little bit deeper than run of the mill compassion. The reason I ask the question is because I disagree strongly with your point about our media coverage being slanted toward atrocities against Christians. I don't find that to be true at all, in fact I find that quite unlike the Muslim world, Christians don't seem to feel much kinship between one another at all. Your average Western Christian has no idea what's going on in Central Africa to other Christians, and in my experience aren't particularly bothered even when they do.

First of all, for still finding the opening to slide in an emotive sensationalist statement that very cleverly undermines my experience.

Second of all, maybe Western Christianity of recent times haven't still the open scars of colonialism, oppression, genocide etc to a comparable extent? These sort of conditions are pretty powerful when it comes to people developing a feeling of "kinship".

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

First of all, for still finding the opening to slide in an emotive sensationalist statement that very cleverly undermines my experience.

Er... what?

Second of all, maybe Western Christianity of recent times haven't still the open scars of colonialism, oppression, genocide etc to a comparable extent? These sort of conditions are pretty powerful when it comes to people developing a feeling of "kinship".

Maybe. Would be interesting then to see how African Christians see eachother. Either way though I'm not sure it offers us any solutions.

 

[sl1k]

Er... what?

orrite m8

Maybe. Would be interesting then to see how African Christians see eachother. Either way though I'm not sure it offers us any solutions.

It doesn't, you were just bamboozled by the reasoning behind why a group of people that share a belief system would feel a kinship to each other. I responded.

 

[HertsWolf]

Your average Western Christian has no idea what's going on in Central Africa to other Christians, and in my experience aren't particularly bothered even when they do.

I think you have no evidence for this. Just because you have no idea (which given the way you post, seems unlikely tbh) doesn't mean others don't.
So exactly what is your "experience" that leads you to suggest people "aren't ... bothered"? I have personal experience that people are bothered.
I have seen collections in church specifically for communities in Africa in recent weeks, and I was at a meeting a few months back where people were talking about experiences with human rights abuses in Latin American countries. In fact, I could go on all night (which I am sure you would be keen for me to do with examples). I suggested at one event in the summer that there seemed a higher propensity to support "people who are a bit more like us". The response was that that was what people felt easiest supporting. Curious, eh?

I put forward that your experience is extremely limited.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I think you have no evidence for this. Just because you have no idea (which given the way you post, seems unlikely tbh) doesn't mean others don't.
So exactly what is your "experience" that leads you to suggest people "aren't ... bothered"? I have personal experience that people are bothered.
I have seen collections in church specifically for communities in Africa in recent weeks, and I was at a meeting a few months back where people were talking about experiences with human rights abuses in Latin American countries. In fact, I could go on all night (which I am sure you would be keen for me to do with examples). I suggested at one event in the summer that there seemed a higher propensity to support "people who are a bit more like us". The response was that that was what people felt easiest supporting. Curious, eh?

I put forward that your experience is extremely limited.

Put forward what you like, this is all anecdotal/argumentum ad verecundiam. I would suggest that when only about a third of Christians in the UK have a church at all, and even fewer attend regularly, it probably doesn't make much sense to take what you see at your church groups as representative of Christians in the UK as a whole. In my experience of talking to (mostly non-practising) Christians about this stuff, they don't seem particularly arsed. I don't know if there is any data on the matter.

 

[HertsWolf]

Put forward what you like, this is all anecdotal. I would suggest that when only about a third of Christians in the UK have a church at all, and even fewer attend regularly, it probably doesn't make much sense to take what you see at your church groups as representative of Christians in the UK as a whole.

I was merely using illustrations of one church group (funnily enough that's where Christians collect occasionally). The other examples..and there are more....are from conferences and other events where "ordinary people", or "average Western Christians" were giving their views on a whole range of things. The number of people attending churches is utterly bollock-breakingly irrelevant. Where did I make a claim that what I said was representative of Christians???? I was suggesting that in a variety of contexts I have seen people who are very much bothered.

But of course it's anecdotal, but you were making a bold statement on "your experience" and I was countering with mine. You didn't highlight the 'anecdotal' bit in your earlier post, only when I responded. Funny, that.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I was merely using illustrations of one church group (funnily enough that's where Christians collect occasionally). The other examples..and there are more....are from conferences and other events where "ordinary people", or "average Western Christians" were giving their views on a whole range of things. The number of people attending churches is utterly bollock-breakingly irrelevant.

It's very relevant if you're attempting to refute an assertion about the average Christian with stories about church groups, which you seemed to be doing.

But of course it's anecdotal, but you were making a bold statement on "your experience" and I was countering with mine. You didn't highlight the 'anecdotal' bit in your earlier post, only when I responded. Funny, that.

Not really. If you're so forceful with your anecdotal argument that you're basically calling me a liar then it's probably something that needs highlighting.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Church-going Christians are obsessed with Christians in other countries. They're especially interested in one's that are being oppressed for their beliefs.

Being oppressed for your beliefs and spreading the good word of God around the world is Christianity 101.

 

[HertsWolf]

It's very relevant if you're attempting to refute an assertion about the average Christian with stories about church groups, which you seemed to be doing.

Except I wasn't. As I said. I was using one group at one church. As my anecdotal experience to counter yours. So even if they were the only church-goers in the entire universe, it was still my experience. It carries no more or less weight than your experience whether there are just four Christians left or 187 billion.

Not really. If you're so forceful with your anecdotal argument that you're basically calling me a liar then it's probably something that needs highlighting.

You calling someone else forceful in an argument is laughable. Talk about pot and kettle. I haven't called you a liar. Nowhere near it. I have pointed out that I have different experiences from yours. You just don't like that and try to pick holes in my experience by pointing out that somehow my experience is invalid because of....and then line up some statistics about church-going in the UK. How is that relevant to what was being said, for goodness' sake?

Pretend for a minute that I didn't even mention that it was a church group. Just a group of people who happened to be ordinary British people (like the people at the other events....boy am I losing the will to live having to explain this.) There... does that make it easier to understand? Their views are no more or less representative of your own anecdotal evidence.

 

[sl1k]

boy am I losing the will to live having to explain this.

Keep strong Herts, or EG wins (apparently)

Attrition mate.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Except I wasn't. As I said. I was using one group at one church. As my anecdotal experience to counter yours. So even if they were the only church-goers in the entire universe, it was still my experience. It carries no more or less weight than your experience whether there are just four Christians left or 187 billion.


You calling someone else forceful in an argument is laughable. Talk about pot and kettle. I haven't called you a liar. Nowhere near it. I have pointed out that I have different experiences from yours. You just don't like that and try to pick holes in my experience by pointing out that somehow my experience is invalid because of....and then line up some statistics about church-going in the UK. How is that relevant to what was being said, for goodness' sake?

You're quoting a post in which I explained why I referenced those stats. I'm not sure how much more simply I can put it so that you might understand.

Pretend for a minute that I didn't even mention that it was a church group. Just a group of people who happened to be ordinary British people (like the people at the other events....boy am I losing the will to live having to explain this.) There... does that make it easier to understand? Their views are no more or less representative of your own anecdotal evidence.

You've changed your tune.

"I think you have no evidence for this."

"I put forward that your experience is extremely limited."

Petty of me to point out such glaring hypocrisy, I know...

 

[allouso]

So none of the attackers were identified as Syrian refugees after all?

 

[Bobbin']

So none of the attackers were identified as Syrian refugees after all?

No but some had apparentley been to Syria and returned through the same channels as the refugees.

 

[HertsWolf]

Keep strong Herts, or EG wins (apparently)

Attrition mate.

In this case, I've now stopped responding to him. When he's tackling me on "you have no evidence" against "very limited evidence" you know that there's really not a lot of point. It's lost all value as a debate, really.

Your explanation of life in Tower Hamlets (I lived there for a year myself in the 1980s) was very interesting and would be worth more debate...but I suspect this isn't the place. EG would only nitpick it to death. I would hope that he might add your personal experience to his armoury, but I suspect he won't.

 

[Bobbin']

So none of the attackers were identified as Syrian refugees after all?

https://www.rt.com/news/323049-third-bomber-paris-stadium/

 

[allouso]

https://www.rt.com/news/323049-third-bomber-paris-stadium/

Oh alright, had seen this earlier: http://mashable.com/2015/11/23/PARIS-ATTACKERS-EUROPEANS-NOT-REFUGEES/#euMVlITifsqt

 

[Bobbin']

Oh alright, had seen this earlier: http://mashable.com/2015/11/23/PARIS-ATTACKERS-EUROPEANS-NOT-REFUGEES/#euMVlITifsqt

Not sure they really know themselves, to be honest, I'm not too familiar with the link I posted and I don't actually remember anything on the BBC other than that there was intelligence that the 'mastermind' had travelled through Greece on his way back from Syria.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-one-in-five-muslims-do-not-support-isis-a6745206.html

 

[G-Dragon]

EG doesn't want debate, he yearns to push his anti Islamic agenda which I quickly realised on TFF. I'm cool with that. His systematic use of strawman is what makes him infuriating to engage and most people either give up or end up shouting abuse.

That isn't winning a debate, or a genuine exchange of ideas/perceptions, it's shutting it down (very arrogantly) which is just counter fucking productive. He pulls it off superbly though (so he thinks) cos he's brilliantly articulate.

You need to calm down. No need to call everyone who does not agree with you of having anti-Islamic agenda. It has been a theme of this thread for a while now.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

the reoccurring theme has been making irrelevant points, and the twisting of tragedy to suit various agendas imo

 

[sl1k]

You need to calm down. No need to call everyone who does not agree with you of having anti-Islamic agenda. It has been a theme of this thread for a while now.

Who's talking to you though innit. I had an outburst several nights ago, and I deleted it upon reflection.

EG has been about in the politics section from TFF, so there's history and context. So,

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

If people want to take issue with the way I post then they can PM me, PM a mod or PM each other. It doesn't make much sense to bleat about me allegedly taking the discussion off the rails while simultaneously doing it yourself.

 

[HertsWolf]

You need to calm down. No need to call everyone who does not agree with you of having anti-Islamic agenda. It has been a theme of this thread for a while now.

Hmmmm

Can you read properly? Which part of "the way" did you not understand?

Calm the fuck down dickhead

I don't even need to verify you are a c*** btw.

Brain dead moron like you probably think ...

All the idiots claiming ...

but but PC idiots here are claiming...

PC idiots here would claim...

While this thread has been heated, a common theme has been you describing people who do not share your views as being PC or idiots or both, often quite strongly. Perhaps consider your own calmness. We all get annoyed occasionally when riled, but yours seems a common theme.

fwiw, Sl1k hasn't accused everyone who disagrees with him as having an anti-Islamic agenda. But some people certainly do have one. Sl1k has several times talked about his own background and, with some degree of personal experience, commented on several myths about Islam and even sharia law. It looked like an interesting perspective, and one that some might want to hear. A number of people have also asked genuine questions about Muslims and Islam and sl1k can probably give a response that may not be definitive, but might illustrate the complexities of our multicultural society.

 

[Whitechapel]

Hostage situation in France...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-eur...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

 

[G-Dragon]

Hmmmm








While this thread has been heated, a common theme has been you describing people who do not share your views as being PC or idiots or both, often quite strongly. Perhaps consider your own calmness. We all get annoyed occasionally when riled, but yours seems a common theme.

fwiw, Sl1k hasn't accused everyone who disagrees with him as having an anti-Islamic agenda. But some people certainly do have one. Sl1k has several times talked about his own background and, with some degree of personal experience, commented on several myths about Islam and even sharia law. It looked like an interesting perspective, and one that some might want to hear. A number of people have also asked genuine questions about Muslims and Islam and sl1k can probably give a response that may not be definitive, but might illustrate the complexities of our multicultural society.

If you are going to quote someone you need to quote properly. You should try to include the quotes to which I was responding to, and why my response was appropriate (including the language I used). I can't say much if they have already been deleted though (now there is an agenda you are shouting about )
Check who initially started calling anyone who disagreed with your views Islamphobic and hater of brown people.
Check who initially started using the kind of languages that you quoted.
You might find that you "liked" them.

 

[HertsWolf]

If you are going to quote someone you need to quote properly. You should try to include the quotes to which I was responding to, and why my response was appropriate (including the language I used). I can't say much if they have already been deleted though (now there is an agenda you are shouting about )
Check who initially started calling anyone who disagreed with your views Islamphobic and hater of brown people.
Check who initially started using the kind of languages that you quoted.
You might find that you "liked" them.

I "need" to? Really?

 

[G-Dragon]

I "need" to? Really?

You want me to? I don't really have the time atm though

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Tunisia president declares state of emergency after explosion on bus carrying presidential guards kills at least 12

 

[Aber gas]

If you are going to quote someone you need to quote properly. You should try to include the quotes to which I was responding to, and why my response was appropriate (including the language I used). I can't say much if they have already been deleted though (now there is an agenda you are shouting about )
Check who initially started calling anyone who disagreed with your views Islamphobic and hater of brown people.
Check who initially started using the kind of languages that you quoted.
You might find that you "liked" them.

You referring to me son?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Tunisia president declares state of emergency after explosion on bus carrying presidential guards kills at least 12

going out on a limb here but probably not the same cell that did the paris attack