Attacks in Paris + Belgium

[silkyman]

I just gave voice to the implication. I was making the point that there isn't any way of having a blanket solution. That you can't just say 'no more immigrants' or 'put all muslims on watch lists'.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

I just gave voice to the implication. I was making the point that there isn't any way of having a blanket solution. That you can't just say 'no more immigrants' or 'put all muslims on watch lists'.

u say that, buuuuut...

 

[Aber gas]

No one else had mentioned race before you. It is course implicitly there: it is implicitly already about race/religion, but your "kick out all the black people" schtick is just the same over and over, fingers in ears.

And your simplistic reasoning that terrorism is caused by immigration is even more grating. Blah, blah blame a foreigner waffle, waffle.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

if u can't blame a foreigner blame the child of a foreigner

 

[Womble98]

Well it is.... It isn't British people who have been here for their entire lives whose parents and grandparents who were raised here. It is the children of immigrants doing it is it not?

 

[Dave-Vale]

Very convenient how this comes days after the Paris attacks mastermind is arrested and says he had other plans.

I reckon this was meant to be on a much larger scale. Were the bombs meant for planes with the bomber/s getting spooked/caught and detonating earlier?

Also, I can all but guarantee the attackers will be Belgian/French.

 

[jacobncfc]

Well it is.... It isn't British people who have been here for their entire lives whose parents and grandparents who were raised here. It is the children of immigrants doing it is it not?

There's some very prominent Islamic terrorists who are British/French/Whatever converts. So yeah, sometimes it is.

 

[Christian Slater]

As always, an attack of this nature leads to division and marginalisation. The tragedy turns into people point scoring and getting precious about the merits of their opinions. It's like a Pam Ayres poem.

Anyone of us could have been caught up in that today.

 

[Aber gas]

Well it is.... It isn't British people who have been here for their entire lives whose parents and grandparents who were raised here. It is the children of immigrants doing it is it not?

But that's almost everybody, where does your definition of immigrant begin and end?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

cough cough samantha lewthwaite

 

[Tilbury]

I never said they were to be fair, I advocated profiling as narrowly as feasibly possible, if you don't start at least trying to identiffy potential threats... well.... I hope you're happy to see one of these every month or so. Something has to be done and we have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee national security agencies are doing exactly what I've said and have been doing for years. Granted attacks are still happening, but we have no way of knowing how many have been stopped.

Yes of course, you have to identify potential threats, but your response to that has to be rational. I don't think targeting all Muslim men is either practical nor an acceptable response. It creates resentment and further division, which itself causes more problems.

 

[Aber gas]

As always, an attack of this nature leads to division and marginalisation. The tragedy turns into people point scoring and getting precious about the merits of their opinions. It's like a Pam Ayres poem.

Anyone of us could have been caught up in that today.

I'm not sure that's true, people are debating an important issue. I don't think " point scoring " is prevalent tbh.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

My son and girlfriend live and work ln Brussels, my son at the British Embassy and he had walked past the metro station ten minutes earlier. His girlfriend uses that metro station daily and thank the Lord she went into work early today so both are fine.
For fifteen minutes we couldn't get any contact from him as we know he lives in this district but finally he texted us that he is in work but the embassy like everywhere else is in total lockdown.
They were both due to fly from the airport tomorrow to go to spend Easter at his girlfriends home in Italy.
Thank the Lord they are OK but many families have been eternally shattered by theses cowards and my heart goes out to them

 

[The Fack]

It's not just Islam who kill and use religion as a scapegoat, many other people from different religions and walks of life do it too. They're not representing their faiths, they're giving it a bad name.

 

[spireite]

Yes of course, you have to identify potential threats, but your response to that has to be rational. I don't think targeting all Muslim men is either practical nor an acceptable response. It creates resentment and further division, which itself causes more problems.

Who would you target your focus on. And I never said all Muslim men. It would really help if people stopped changing what people have said. For the 3rd time I would target those most likely to commit atrocity, and try to narrow down the net as much as possible

 

[TheMinsterman]

Yes of course, you have to identify potential threats, but your response to that has to be rational. I don't think targeting all Muslim men is either practical nor an acceptable response. It creates resentment and further division, which itself causes more problems.

I think, when we are discussing why home grown terrorism occurs, we absolutely, fundamentally need to also employ a little self-reflection and understand that perhaps the reason young men living in the West are so easily weaponised is because they're now growing up in a culture which tacitly and actively marginalises them. Anti-Islamic propaganda is entirely normalised in our media, anti-Muslim rhetoric is demonstrably on the rise, people are having to grow up under a lens of suspicion, where even well meaning people are distancing themselves from them. Their ostracisation from society isn't entirely a result of "well this book they read and they don't want to". Now, before anybody takes me out of context, I'm not suggesting migrant communities have done NOTHING wrong, but equally we seem to like to ignore that these people are growing up in a climate which actively discriminates against them and sometimes even despises them, if you lived like that every day wouldn't you become increasingly angry about it?

 

[silkyman]

just a reminder that none of the paris terrorists were syrian

All Wikipedia has today on that is that one of the attackers was identified as being the same person who had come through turkey on a forged Syrian passport. Another has yet to be named. So out of nine attackers, five French, two Belgians and two Unknown.

 

[Womble98]

There's some very prominent Islamic terrorists who are British/French/Whatever converts. So yeah, sometimes it is.

Converted by Islamic extremists and preachers who are either immigrants themselves or children of immigrants. Richard Dart, white middle class Britain, converted by Anjem Choudary and then attempted to join the Taliban.

As always, an attack of this nature leads to division and marginalisation. The tragedy turns into people point scoring and getting precious about the merits of their opinions. It's like a Pam Ayres poem.

Anyone of us could have been caught up in that today.

As Aber said, it is an important discussion to have, and I don't think anyone here is simply doing this to score points.

But that's almost everybody, where does your definition of immigrant begin and end?

In this context, it is those who immigrated from third-world Muslim countries like Pakistan, Somalia etc.

cough cough samantha lewthwaite

Arguably radicalised by her suicide bomber husband who blew himself up on our train network.

It's not just Islam who kill and use religion as a scapegoat, many other people from different religions and walks of life do it too. They're not representing their faiths, they're giving it a bad name.

When their actions have koranic justification then we can't stick our fingers in our ears and claim they have nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Christian Slater]

Converted by Islamic extremists and preachers who are either immigrants themselves or children of immigrants. Richard Dart, white middle class Britain, converted by Anjem Choudary and then attempted to join the Taliban.

As Aber said, it is an important discussion to have, and I don't think anyone here is simply doing this to score points.

In this context, it is those who immigrated from third-world Muslim countries like Pakistan, Somalia etc.


Arguably radicalised by her suicide bomber husband who blew himself up on our train network.

When their actions have koranic justification then we can't stick our fingers in our ears and claim they have nothing to do with Islam.

I wouldn't call it "important" in this context. It's just the same discussion from last time and the time before that. That's not to say nobody should be discussing it, just that these aren't important solutions being discussed.

 

[Womble98]

I think, when we are discussing why home grown terrorism occurs, we absolutely, fundamentally need to also employ a little self-reflection and understand that perhaps the reason young men living in the West are so easily weaponised is because they're now growing up in a culture which tacitly and actively marginalises them. Anti-Islamic propaganda is entirely normalised in our media, anti-Muslim rhetoric is demonstrably on the rise, people are having to grow up under a lens of suspicion, where even well meaning people are distancing themselves from them. Their ostracisation from society isn't entirely a result of "well this book they read and they don't want to". Now, before anybody takes me out of context, I'm not suggesting migrant communities have done NOTHING wrong, but equally we seem to like to ignore that these people are growing up in a climate which actively discriminates against them and sometimes even despises them, if you lived like that every day wouldn't you become increasingly angry about it?

I don't think people realise the counterpoint to this, which is that western media, western governments and perhaps predominantly, western people are fearful of another attack. It isn't discrimination borne out of nothing (not that it makes it right). This attack today will only serve to make more people despise them, which I'll admit quite freely is unfair on those who are peaceful, friendly, and contribute to society.

All Wikipedia has today on that is that one of the attackers was identified as being the same person who had come through turkey on a forged Syrian passport. Another has yet to be named. So out of nine attackers, five French, two Belgians and two Unknown.

At least one of them went to a training camp in Syria. They travelled through Europe undetected and were on terrorist watch lists. If Europe had borders, we would know where each one of them had been, and know where they were at the time of the attack and better care could have been taken to stop it. The chaos in Europe caused by allowing refugees in arguably contributed to their ease in moving about.

 

[Womble98]

34 dead.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I wouldn't call it "important" in this context. It's just the same discussion from last time and the time before that. That's not to say nobody should be discussing it, just that these aren't important solutions being discussed.

Yes. And people use the events to reinforce beliefs that they already have, rather than it changing anything.

 

[Womble98]

Yes. And people use the events to reinforce beliefs that they already have, rather than it changing anything.

That isn't true, I used to share the same views as Aber and others until one of the attacks and I spent a decent amount of time reading up about it.

 

[Womble98]

Bomb threats at the university, and at least two controlled explosions have taken place throughout the city

 

[jacobncfc]

Converted by Islamic extremists and preachers who are either immigrants themselves or children of immigrants. Richard Dart, white middle class Britain, converted by Anjem Choudary and then attempted to join the Taliban.

As Aber said, it is an important discussion to have, and I don't think anyone here is simply doing this to score points.

In this context, it is those who immigrated from third-world Muslim countries like Pakistan, Somalia etc.


Arguably radicalised by her suicide bomber husband who blew himself up on our train network.

When their actions have koranic justification then we can't stick our fingers in our ears and claim they have nothing to do with Islam.

I don't really get what you're suggesting here. It tends to be Muslims that carry out acts of Islamic terrorism? Great.

 

[The East Terrace]

People simply going about their business and 34 innocent people who will never see their families again because of a bunch of nut jobs. Radicalised is a trendy way of saying brainwashed, nothing different to how religious cults recruit, twisted history and making people believe that everyone is the enemy. As a daily commuter into London it does play on your mind sometimes but not that it would ever stop me from travelling whether for work or leisure.

 

[Womble98]

I don't really get what you're suggesting here. It tends to be Muslims that carry out acts of Islamic terrorism? Great.

You said that there are prominent terrorists who are all native to that country in response to me saying that these attacks are done primarily by immigrants and their children. The prominent terrorists who are natives are radicalised by the immigrants. I am pointing out a direct link between immigration of those who hold extremist views and islamic terror.

 

[jacobncfc]

You said that there are prominent terrorists who are all native to that country in response to me saying that these attacks are done primarily by immigrants and their children. The prominent terrorists who are natives are radicalised by the immigrants. I am pointing out a direct link between immigration of those who hold extremist views and islamic terror.

Yes, I know, but what's your point? What do you think should happen?

 

[mnb089mnb]

That isn't true, I used to share the same views as Aber and others until one of the attacks and I spent a decent amount of time reading up about it.

Not necessarily true of everyone, but as a generalisation I think it holds.

 

[Womble98]

Yes, I know, but what's your point? What do you think should happen?

As I have said, we (Europe) stop investment in our mosques by extremists and Saudi Arabia. Extremists like Anjem Choudrary should be stopped from preaching. There needs to be increased funding to religious education programmes, so that religious literacy is increased, and people understand the flaws of religion, and are therefore less likely to be indoctrinated by extremism.