Catalonia

[Laker]

Declaring independence "in a matter of days" apparently. Wonder what Spain's reaction will be this time.....

 

[nousername]

^ I thought the Nationalists would slink off quietly after the referendum, but interestingly looks like they're escalating this further. What do the Spanish do now. (Apart from roll out the King...!)

I know Abertawe is on the wind-up regarding the EU, but I think he's correct in that this situation is putting them, and the institution's supporters, in quite an awkward situation.

They clearly can't promote or legitimise breakaway movements, it's really anathema to them and a major threat to stability, but their silence (and in fact the majority of countries silence) is effectively encouraging, or giving a de facto blessing to, the police crackdown...

A few of my IndyRef in Scotland are shifting their views on the EU in light of this.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

The EU wants this issue to disappear quietly. Well it certainly isn't, with both Spain and Catalonia escalating things. The EU shows itself to have it's priorities way out of wack, when it's happy to wash it's hands on a state beating the crap out of civilians whilst it potentially splits in two.

 

[Abertawe]

This is a good read from someone who has supported the EU project through thick & thin. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/obliged-reconsider-support-european-union/

This snippet in particular

But not all who oppose the EU are right wing. There are others who oppose the EU on the grounds that it is simply another instrument of power of the global 1% and an enforcer of neo-liberalism. I had opposed this idea on the grounds it was confusing the policies of current EU states with the institution itself, that it ignored the EU’s strong guarantees of human rights, and its commitment to workers’ rights and consumer protection.

I have to admit today that I was wrong, and in fact the EU does indeed function to maintain the global political elite, and cares nothing for the people.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

"Everyone saw the violence of the State. Has it (the EU) nothing to say about it? As a European citizen I am disappointed to have believed that if ever there was repression of rights .....that the EU would protect me"

- Carles Puigdemont, Catalan president

Whether they like it or not this issue will start banging down the EU's door sooner or later. And the sooner the EU, as the self professed bringers of peace across Europe, bring the two sides together the easier it'll be for everyone. The longer they stick their fingers in their ears and hope it all goes away, the messier and more painful this is going to be.

They have legal (article 7 and others) as well as moral abilities to mediate, otherwise what is the bloody point of them. Be it a compromise around increased autonomy (which I suspect is most likely), or if all else fails perhaps a peaceful, planned and graceful independence program. Which is far better than a sudden unilateral declaration, which is in nobody's interest, and would cause the EU a constitutional crisis around recognition and EU membership.

But it's ok, cos EU spokesperson Margaritis Schinas says “there is a possibility of (the Commissioners) discussing it" but with no specific agenda. So it's clearly high up their priorities.

 

[nousername]

During the referendum I had arguments with friends who insisted the EU was essential for protecting Worker's rights, Consumer rights etc.

Turns out the EU can barely muster a Tweet when one its own members starts using the state to attack its own citizens...

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Lots of really silly stuff from people previously insistent that the EU shouldn't interfere with the sovereignty of member states! Only when it suits, eh?

FWIW, I think the EU's response is broadly ok. The referendum does contravene the Spanish constitution - the courts have upheld that - so it would be inappropriate for the EU to take a stance in opposition to that. They did also condemn the violence, though I personally think they could have, and perhaps ought to have been more forceful on this point. Nevertheless, I imagine they are engaging with Madrid behind the scenes to ensure there's no repeat of the scenes last weekend. It's a tricky situation, though; one which the Spanish government has needlessly escalated.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Lots of really silly stuff from people previously insistent that the EU shouldn't interfere with the sovereignty of member states! Only when it suits, eh?

FWIW, I think the EU's response is broadly ok. The referendum does contravene the Spanish constitution - the courts have upheld that - so it would be inappropriate for the EU to take a stance in opposition to that. They did also condemn the violence, though I personally think they could have, and perhaps ought to have been more forceful on this point. Nevertheless, I imagine they are engaging with Madrid behind the scenes to ensure there's no repeat of the scenes last weekend. It's a tricky situation, though; one which the Spanish government has needlessly escalated.

Of all the things the EU should exist for, preventing or working to resolve exactly this type of situation is basically it. Not unelectable dictate of state agricultural or fishing policy or public procurement process or taking Ireland to court. But preventing or at least properly rebuking a state beating up civilians, in a dispute escalating towards a state unilaterally breaking apart? Seems far more worthwhile and important to get involved with, just IMHO of course. There's also the UN mind you who probably have something to say, but this is happening on the EU's front lawn. So you know....

 

[Aber gas]

I agree with the general idea that the EU should become involved in some way. However some this does strike me as opportunism or perhaps being used as a convenient way of attacking the EU. I didn't see any outrage when British police have attacked it's own citizens or meted out brutal state violence. Should the EU intervene in Yarls Wood?
Perhaps it's the distance that gives us perspective or maybe this has always been a valid criticism but we are not always consistent. Idk

 

[Abertawe]

I'm struggling to think of a recent circumstance in this country that has resulted in 900 people requiring medical assistance because of a wish to self-determination tbqpfh. Also it's all very well saying THE SPANISH CONSTITUTION but it was drawn up shortly after the death of Franco and people were happy just to have some rights back and no longer being under a dictatorship. That logic implies the Spanish government could amend law back to Franco times of Catalonian censorship and it would be okay cuz the law says so. There comes a point where you realise a peoples shouldn't be punished because they were on the losing side and lost their 'rights' in a war before any of us were born. Pineapple is basically saying best fighting force decides everything and that's okay.

The EU don't give a shit because their purpose and reason for being was never to uphold & protect the rights of people. They exist as a means of ensuring the resources of an area covering 4 million km² and populating 508 million people remains under the grip of a small number of people.

 

[Aber gas]

Are the parameters just plebiscites or referendum votes that have involved state violence?

 

[Abertawe]

 

[Abertawe]

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Some headlines picked by the BBC from Puigdemont this evening:

"The ballots say Yes to independence this is the will that I want to go forward with"

"At this historical moment as the president of Catalonia, I want to follow people's will for Catalonia to become an independent state."

"Today I assume the mandate for Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic"

But he adds: "We're suspending the declaration of independence for a few weeks, because we want a reasonable dialogue, a mediation with the Spanish state."

"It has become obvious that it is not an internal issues any longer. Catalonia is now an European matter," he says.

He says he is "not planning any threats or any insults" but instead wants to "de-escalate the tension".

In short, the door appears wide open for mediation, the status quo is not acceptable, but the hype around unilateral independence seems slightly decreased. It's certainly going to rumble on.

 

[Indian Dan]

I’ve never liked Catalonia. Or to be more precise that Cerys Matthews.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Spain activates Article 155, suspending Catalan autonomy.

 

[Abertawe]

They should do the same to Scotland for bants.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Catalonia Parliament votes in favour of motion to declare independence from Spain.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

This isn't going to end well.

 

[Aber gas]

I wonder what the ETA is of a Basque declaration. ( I stole that FYI)

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Spanish Senate votes to impose direct rule in Catalonia.

 

[Abertawe]

Catalonia are lacking hard friends. Maybe it would be an idea to see if Trump fancies trolling the EU by supplying some weaponry.

Will Catalonia now collect their own taxes or would that be impossible? Every non emergency worker striking maybe. Would do significant damage to Spain's economy and would have a consequence on the EU too. How long could the people go without wages though.

 

[Lance Stoe]

Civil war is about to erupt amigos

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Great job everyone

 

[Abertawe]

US & EU backing Spain.

Please please Putin back the cats and give em tanks. War on mainland Europe again like the good old days.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Well, Spain have bowed to terrorism before...

 

[Pagnell]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41794087

Second huge anti-independence rally held in Barcelona involving well over a quarter of a million people. It's certainly not as clear cut as some like to make out.

 

[Jockney]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41794087

Second huge anti-independence rally held in Barcelona involving well over a quarter of a million people. It's certainly not as clear cut as some like to make out.

Certainly not, and there are legitimate arguments to be made about who self-determination really favours in a political and economic sense, but it's worth mentioning that Catalan independence demonstrations have brought in numbers ranging from a million to 2milion, which puts this recent demo into perspective.

 

[Abertawe]

Tryna be edgy. Many of them came from different regions of Spain. Stop falling for the propaganda pagz you always fall for the propaganda.

Girona beat Real Madrid which is just brilliant.

 

[Pagnell]

Not trying to be edgy, just pointing out it's not as one sided as you're implying, even amongst Catalonians.