Club size in order

[shoddycollins]

Your post is interesting and 99% well-argued, but this made me do a double-take. Who in their right mind could argue that Newcastle, with their mediocre history in which the last of their trophies was in 1955, the last of their 4 league titles was in 1927 with only 6 other top 3 finishes and with the club located in a second-level region of the football industry, are remotely in the same category as world-famous, multiple European, League and domestic cup winners Liverpool, located in a significantly bigger and more historically important city/urban area, with a bigger fanbase in one of the country's three major footballing centres?

Don't think he was arguing it particularly, but it's all about how much perspective matters when it comes to bigness. If you'd asked me aged 16 who was bigger, Newcastle or Liverpool, the answer would have been undoubtedly Newcastle.

It was the Keegan era and Newcastle looked like they might win the title sometime soon, they had superstar Alan Shearer and they even had their own Goal of the Month competition bizarrely on Match of the Day that ran alongside MotD's own goal of the month (no idea how they wangled that one but it certainly added to the impression of them being the second biggest club in the country behind ManU)

Two years is a long time when you're 16; a decade is unfathomably long so that brief spell of challenging ManU's dominance may only have lasted a couple of years but it felt like it had always been either ManU or Newcastle. Liverpool's trophies were obscured by the mists of time, won before ManU's thousand-year-long (or so it seemed) era of total dominance and though fans always sang 'no silverware' at Newcastle it always seemed to me they sang that because of how absurd it was that such a huge club hadn't won anything recently but I expected that would soon be over.

Living with Newcastle as your closest Premier League club definitely affects perspective too. In my school there were two types of gloryhunters. ManU supporting gloryhunters and lesser in number but not by a lot, Newcastle supporting gloryhunters. Liverpool had hardly any fans in comparison and those that did supported Liverpool because it ran in their family, but gloryhunters definitely supported one of either Newcastle or ManU.

 

[Chris FGR]

Salford can eff off to hell and they're in a league of their own as far as doping and shafting the ethos of lower league football is concerned, but you FGR lot are being unbelievably disingenuous. You absolutely did dope your way out of the Conference in a manner only three or four sides have ever done. You conveniently ignore the massive losses you made in successive years while you were buying your way out - over £4m in two years.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co....ews/forest-green-rovers-report-losses-1196303

In 2017 you paid out almost £150k more in agents fees and other transfer-related fees alone than any other Conference side - £174k. The next on the list was the vastly bigger club Wrexham with only £26k. You actually paid more than every other Conference club combined, more than any club in L2 bar Portsmouth and more than a number of L1 clubs, so it's ridiculous to claim you aren't where you are because of intensive doping.

You've missed my point, again.

We clearly spent far too much trying to get into the league, especially with Hockaday in charge when all it would have taken was a good manager with a decent budget to give us half a chance.

The point I'm making is that since getting here we've shifted our approach. There is no need for any panty wetting on your behalf, we won't be signing any of Exeter's better players nor will we compete with you for signings.

 

[Son of Cod]

 

[Jerry]

No way. Historically speaking and probably when you come back, by contrast with the false claims of the FGR fans you really do have better historical attendances overall than Stevenage, Crawley, Macclesfield, Morecambe (and of course FGR) as well as many more 3rd tier seasons, a much longer EFL history and a better FA Cup record overall - although the very recent cup record of some of those sides is better.

Yep and those are the tinpotters I was referring to. Of established league sides (ie in the league before auto promotion was introduced) we would be the smallest. Any side we might claim to be bigger than have joined us in non-league (eg Chester, Halifax etc).

These things do fluctuate though, back in the late 80's and 90's Doncaster were regularly struggling at the bottom of division 4 with minuscule attendances. The same for Crewe in the 70's and 80's when they were easily the smallest team in the league.

 

[GTFCfish]

Lol. Only started watching it a month or so ago. Having to watch 3 or 4 a night to watch before drops off Now TV. At least I can skip that part and save myself a bit of time

To save yourself a bit of time mate, the first seven series are great, the eight and final one is a load of fucking shite, what should be the best series of the lot is easily the worst.
Enjoy!

 

[ProfessorGreen]

LOL.

Sure they would buddy.

It says far more about you than it does me if you're delusional enough to think the contrary Trappy.

Personal opinion I'm not actually fussed about the prospect of my club never playing in the Premier League. It'd be nice to see for a season or whatever, but you get there and there's no chance of breaking the top 6 or 7 sides. Would turn boring. Championship is a far more exciting league!

 

[Chris FGR]

Series 1-7 GoT are ok ish but 8 is shite. Don't get the hype, much prefer proper tv like the Sopranos, Peakey Blinders or Line of Duty, not this fantasy shite.

 

[Son of Cod]

Watched the first series of Line of Duty and don't get the hype around that at all either. It's like a PG/12 version of The Shield.

 

[T.A]

Watched the first series of Line of Duty and don't get the hype around that at all either. It's like a PG/12 version of The Shield.

Me too, just started Billions which seems quite good so far.

 

[Son of Cod]

Me too, just started Billions which seems quite good so far.

Got that on my list. Paul Giamatti is usually good.

 

[GTFCfish]

Series 1-7 GoT are ok ish but 8 is shite. Don't get the hype, much prefer proper tv like the Sopranos, Peakey Blinders or Line of Duty, not this fantasy shite.

We only started watching the Sopranos last week on demand, up to series 2 episode 10 at the minute and I’m hooked on it.

 

[FGR-Star]

It's quite sad how someone can go on such a long rant without reading my quote properly to refute a claim that I didn't make.

We currently get bigger crowds then those teams, fact, and we have like them had spent a fair number of years at a decent level of non-league before making it into the league. Fact. Are we 'far smaller' then them at this point? I would say no, but I'm not sure why that's so important to an Exeter fan.

The same person who says he doesn't have a problem with Bournemouth getting doped to the Prem due to them being a long established league 1/2 club, seems to have a major problem with us shooting up all of one league having been long established in the league below. What a strange individual.

All agreed.

Why does he keep saying sorry too?? It's as though his writing is gospel and he is the oracle of all things club sizes!

It is just his opinion, just like all of ours. One thing that did make me laugh was the strange Exeter troll saying Morecambe are substantially bigger than FGR!!

We get twice their home fans at the moment for goodness sake!!

He then goes onto say that crowd sizes shouldn't matter after a 2000 word slag off rant at FGR.

We are a very small club I can admit that, but some of the bile that is spoken about us is actually bloody amusing.

 

[Jabba the gut]

It's quite sad how someone can go on such a long rant without reading my quote properly to refute a claim that I didn't make.

We currently get bigger crowds then those teams, fact, and we have like them had spent a fair number of years at a decent level of non-league before making it into the league. Fact. Are we 'far smaller' then them at this point? I would say no, but I'm not sure why that's so important to an Exeter fan.

If it wasn't you, then I was responding to FGR fans who laughably claimed you are bigger than the clubs in question (in fact I seems to recall someone posting "far bigger"). That is an utterly ridiculous claim.

It's important to me because I loathe financial doping and I believe it is a huge danger to the vast majority of clubs - even someone of those currently "enjoying the ride". Therefore fans trying to minimise ridiculous levels of financial doping, its contribution to their success and even crowing and claiming spurious, unearned parity with others, sticks in my throat.

The only reason FGR is currently getting an easy ride is the fact Salford have taken the phenomenon to absurd levels while completely hijacking a club's identity and so almost anyone looks good compared to them.

The same person who says he doesn't have a problem with Bournemouth getting doped to the Prem due to them being a long established league 1/2 club, seems to have a major problem with us shooting up all of one league having been long established in the league below. What a strange individual.

You should take your own advice about straw man arguments. I have never said I don't have a problem with Bournemouth - I've attacked them and their model many times. I was simply saying they aren't the same level of abomination as Salford, who have not only doped to obscene levels, but in a faint echo of MK Dons have stolen the original clubs identity, replacing the badge, colours and effectively the hardcore of the original fanbase who quite in disgust. They even wanted to change the name until that was thought to be a step too far and threatened the feelgood media spin.

Bournemouth have at least kept their own identity - they even kept the same manager, some of the same board, for a good while some of the same players and certainly the same core of fans. They are essentially the same club on steroids and not the pernicious Trojan Horse that Salford are. That was the point I was making, not excusing Bournemouth's doping.

 

[Jabba the gut]

...Why does he keep saying sorry too?? It's as though his writing is gospel and he is the oracle of all things club sizes!

It's a figure of speech.

It is just his opinion, just like all of ours. One thing that did make me laugh was the strange Exeter troll saying Morecambe are substantially bigger than FGR!!

They incontrovertibly are. Consistently bigger historic crowds for at least the last thirty years (often significantly bigger) and for a large proportion of that time they played at a higher level than you in the same season - for 8 of their 10 years in the EFL you were in the Conference, for 9 of their 12 most recent years in the Conference you were in the 6th tier and when they were in the 6th tier in the mid-nineties you were in the seventh. In 1996 they were a full two divisions above you.

By contrast you have never played above them in the same season. The only thing you have over them is the FA Vase.

We get twice their home fans at the moment for goodness sake!!

I think not. This season you had 2.7k in the best season in your history, competing for a historic promotion, while Morecambe had almost exactly 2k while battling relegation.

The only season you have ever attracted double their crowds was last year when
you got 2.7k and they got 1.4k. However although you both struggled, the context was radically different for each of you.

That was your first ever season in the EFL, after a series of highly successful winning seasons, with a stable club structure, big money coming into the club and big plans, with all the attractiveness that scenario holds for the floating fan.

The complete opposite was true for Morecambe. They were facing yet another of their serial relegation battles, the EFL was long past being a novelty and to cap It all they were facing disaster off the field. Hardly a scenario designed to hold on to existing fans, let alone attract new ones.

Apart from the last two years, the only season in your history where you have exceeded their average attendance was 2016, when you welcomed a mahoosive average of an extra 200 fans.

Prior to that Morecambe have beaten your attendance in every year for which I can find records, back to about the mid-nineties. Not only that but very often they have beaten you out of sight. They really have often enjoyed double your attendances in the past and sometimes even more than double.

If you want to argue that in the face of that weight of history your success of only the last two years means Morecambe aren't a significantly bigger club, then that's up to you, but I suspect most neutrals would laugh in your face.

He then goes onto say that crowd sizes shouldn't matter after a 2000 word slag off rant at FGR.

I stand by that remark. I was simply refuting the specific BS claims some FGR fans are making about their comparative attendances and the unjustifiable conceits they've formed on the back of that rhetorical house of cards vis-a-vis other clubs, most of whom have not benefitted from significant doping and cerainly not to the degree you have enjoyed.

If FGR fans really do accept being small - and there's no shame in that, given we are all small in the eyes of some clubs - then why do some of them consistently exaggerate their club's true size and history?

 

[E10rifle]

Jabba committing vegenocide here.

 

[FGR Stroud]

This is becoming an interesting thread.
It is a regular remark that Salford have a small number of supporters. But checking last season's average attendance Salford had 2,509 [better than 3 EFL2 teams]
Leyton Orient had 5,444 average which would be 6th best in League 2.
Both these teams will surely increase their attendances.

Of the teams coming down Bradford City have the greatest average following of 16,138. Better than any in EFL2
Fantastic for a team in the relegation zone for most of season. They could well hold on to that number if they do well next season.
7th best supported EFL1 team was Plymouth with 9,851 average. [Also better than any in EFL2 this season]
Being so isolated they could well hold on to that number whatever team does.
Wallsall, 18th best with 4,927. 8th highest in EFL2.
Depends of how they do next season will influence attendances.
And down in 20th is Scunthorpe with average attendance of 4,226 [14th in EFL2]

 

[Indian Dan]

You’re all fucking tinpot!

 

[Jabba the gut]

This is becoming an interesting thread.
It is a regular remark that Salford have a small number of supporters. But checking last season's average attendance Salford had 2,509 [better than 3 EFL2 teams]
Leyton Orient had 5,444 average which would be 6th best in League 2.
Both these teams will surely increase their attendances.

Of the teams coming down Bradford City have the greatest average following of 16,138. Better than any in EFL2
Fantastic for a team in the relegation zone for most of season. They could well hold on to that number if they do well next season.
7th best supported EFL1 team was Plymouth with 9,851 average. [Also better than any in EFL2 this season]
Being so isolated they could well hold on to that number whatever team does.
Wallsall, 18th best with 4,927. 8th highest in EFL2.
Depends of how they do next season will influence attendances.
And down in 20th is Scunthorpe with average attendance of 4,226 [14th in EFL2]

I think the argument about Salford having few fans is based on the unusually dilettante and very recent gloryhunting/daytripper nature of their support. It depends how you define fans". They appear to have have a tiny proportion of hardcore, hell-or-high water fans - especially after the hardcore singers of the original club quit in disgust.

 

[The_Viking_Magpie]

Never forget size matters

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Never forget size matters

It did to Alan Hardy.......

 

[Indian Dan]

Never forget size matters

Your lot sorting themselves out yet?

 

[Jabba the gut]

Of the teams coming down Bradford City have the greatest average following of 16,138. Better than any in EFL2
Fantastic for a team in the relegation zone for most of season. They could well hold on to that number if they do well next season.
7th best supported EFL1 team was Plymouth with 9,851 average. [Also better than any in EFL2 this season]

Bradford is a curious one in that their attendances do seem fairly elastic, beyond the obvious quantum leap they took after Bradford were promoted to the EFL. Since 2006 their attendances have risen from 8.2k to 20k. Even between their promotion season a few years ago where they just made the playoffs and last years they saw attendances double. Maybe a pricing issue?

 

[SoutheySWFC]

Bradford is a curious one in that their attendances do seem fairly elastic, beyond the obvious quantum leap they took after Bradford were promoted to the EFL. Since 2006 their attendances have risen from 8.2k to 20k. Even between their promotion season a few years ago where they just made the playoffs and last years they saw attendances double. Maybe a pricing issue?

Their ST prices are superb, £149 I believe, definitely a major contributer

 

[FGR-Star]

It's a figure of speech.



They incontrovertibly are. Consistently bigger historic crowds for at least the last thirty years (often significantly bigger) and for a large proportion of that time they played at a higher level than you in the same season - for 8 of their 10 years in the EFL you were in the Conference, for 9 of their 12 most recent years in the Conference you were in the 6th tier and when they were in the 6th tier in the mid-nineties you were in the seventh. In 1996 they were a full two divisions above you.

By contrast you have never played above them in the same season. The only thing you have over them is the FA Vase.



I think not. This season you had 2.7k in the best season in your history, competing for a historic promotion, while Morecambe had almost exactly 2k while battling relegation.

The only season you have ever attracted double their crowds was last year when
you got 2.7k and they got 1.4k. However although you both struggled, the context was radically different for each of you.

That was your first ever season in the EFL, after a series of highly successful winning seasons, with a stable club structure, big money coming into the club and big plans, with all the attractiveness that scenario holds for the floating fan.

The complete opposite was true for Morecambe. They were facing yet another of their serial relegation battles, the EFL was long past being a novelty and to cap It all they were facing disaster off the field. Hardly a scenario designed to hold on to existing fans, let alone attract new ones.

Apart from the last two years, the only season in your history where you have exceeded their average attendance was 2016, when you welcomed a mahoosive average of an extra 200 fans.

Prior to that Morecambe have beaten your attendance in every year for which I can find records, back to about the mid-nineties. Not only that but very often they have beaten you out of sight. They really have often enjoyed double your attendances in the past and sometimes even more than double.

If you want to argue that in the face of that weight of history your success of only the last two years means Morecambe aren't a significantly bigger club, then that's up to you, but I suspect most neutrals would laugh in your face.




I stand by that remark. I was simply refuting the specific BS claims some FGR fans are making about their comparative attendances and the unjustifiable conceits they've formed on the back of that rhetorical house of cards vis-a-vis other clubs, most of whom have not benefitted from significant doping and cerainly not to the degree you have enjoyed.

If FGR fans really do accept being small - and there's no shame in that, given we are all small in the eyes of some clubs - then why do some of them consistently exaggerate their club's true size and history?

Wow, you are one sad Wanker you. You incontrovertibly are!

 

[FGR Stroud]

Three games into the season we were W3 D0 L0 and were top. We also did the double over Spurs and Everton and beat eventual champions Derby.

That season after those three wins manager Alan Ashman jokingly said that he had written to the Prime Minister requesting the country be placed under a state of emergency and that the PM cancel all professional football matches and declare Carlisle 'League Champions'.

 

[Son of Cod]

I liked it when we were talking about what to watch on Netflix.

 

[Indian Dan]

After Life ain’t bad

 

[SoutheySWFC]

I liked it when we were talking about what to watch on Netflix.

It's all about IPTV mate

 

[shoddycollins]

I think the argument about Salford having few fans is based on the unusually dilettante and very recent gloryhunting/daytripper nature of their support. It depends how you define fans". They appear to have have a tiny proportion of hardcore, hell-or-high water fans - especially after the hardcore singers of the original club quit in disgust.

I think the measure will be how many fans they have if times get tough. If the money dries up for whatever reason before their success becomes self-sustaining. I imagine most of the people who have jumped aboard the Salford train have done so hoping to follow their rise up the pyramid to, at the very least, the Championship. If that suddenly became unrealistic (if Peter Lim packed his bags tomorrow then even with the much more moderate input from the Class of United Ninety Two and the media coverage that comes with that, it hard to see them sailing through the divisions) then how many would stay to watch a lower league team filled with standard lower league journeymen slog away season after season when they could just go back to Man U or Oldham, of FCUM.

 

[Son of Cod]

After Life ain’t bad

Is that the Gervais one? Yeah I quite enjoyed that too. There are loads of good horror/thrillers on there too if that's anyone's bag?