Confederate flag protests spread across US

[Alty]

think white people need to stop distancing themselves from racism even if they don't think they're racist. we need to get our shit together and face up to the fact that collectively we pose a big problem to minority advancement.

Frankly I don't know enough about other countries to proffer anything over and above a vague impression I get, but if we're talking about the UK specifically, in what ways do white people pose a problem to minority advancement and how can we improve things?

 

[TheMinsterman]

Those immigrants chose to live in a country that flies a flag that symbolises an oppressive regime in their homeland. Therfore I dont think they'd have much grounds for wanting the American flag removed. Conversely, African slaves did not go to America of their own volition. The confederate flag represented white supremacy and a system that stole them from their homeland.

Yeah I don't think an Islamic immigrant to the United States asking for the American Flag to be replaced is a like-for-like analogy for the requests to take down Confederate flags. I work in medicine with several Muslims whom love being here and don't entertain any ideas of leaving. The American flag symbolizes much more to them than military oppression. In fact, I think the notion that the American Flag is some sort of oppressive symbol to Muslims has more momentum with non-Muslims whom dislike the US than it does with Muslim immigrants. Comparing it to a flag which stands for one archaic, oppressive ideology is disingenuous—I'd say it's even disrespectful the slave ancestors of those whom are requesting the Confederate flag be removed.

I don't actually think they should take down the US flag because it offends people, that was sort of my point (tbf thespus you address that later in response to Craig, it was devil's advocate to show you can make a case for other flags), a flag can offend any number of people and have a myriad of meanings attached to them. To me what's more important is why they're flying it, their motive for putting it up outweighs what people attribute to it. If they're flying it to display their pride in being from the South it's not the same as flying it to support white power, same as I can play a video game with a Nazi flag in it set in WWII because it isn't being put in there to glorify Nazi Germany.

Banning it won't change the problems with race in America, it's a feeble attempt to distract from their real social problems in the wake of yet another shooting tragedy and look like they're doing something.

 

[Jockney]

Frankly I don't know enough about other countries to proffer anything over and above a vague impression I get, but if we're talking about the UK specifically, in what ways do white people pose a problem to minority advancement and how can we improve things?

the problem: collective denial and complicity -- regurgitating thinly-veiled racist narratives to justify disproportionate stop and search policies against black youths and/or police brutality, creating carefully defined boundaries of success for black people and using them as proof of progression (i.e. black sports stars, but not black scientists), black students (black boys in particular) treated far more harshly for indiscipline on average than their white counterparts, research that shows that job applicants who appeared to be white would be nearly twice as likely to receive positive response than a minority applicant who had the same credentials, yet still outcry about unfairness of quotas in certain fields. These are just a few examples that spring to mind. As ever, though, the reality is far complex and insidious.

the solution: collective consciousness and collective responsibility; not be conflated with white guilt which is a useless emotional response. Similarly, not conflating criticism of your position within society as a personal attack. Nobody is suggesting that all white people have it easy, or even most, but being white learly gives you a significant social advantage, especially being a white man. These are the first basic steps. Getting over your ego and adopting a critical stance when engaging with mainstream narratives is something of a gamechanger because it compels you to think of not only racism in holistic terms, but general structural inequality too.

edit: 'royal' use of pronouns. of course i know that your grandparents didn't own no slaves....

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

Only thing when thinking in those terms that I conclude is that the Royal 'we' has simply no hope of making any difference. Perhaps white people simply cannot live with other races if it was to be equal completely.

 

[johnnytodd]

don't like a flag then fuck off somewhere else, ..........the white socks and sandals brigade get on my tits

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

don't like a flag then fuck off somewhere else, ..........the white socks and sandals brigade get on my tits

Good point.

 

[thespus]

Racism in the United States will live and die with poverty and substandard education. I live nearby to a public housing project in St. Louis, a city with great racial tension if you've been hibernating the last year. It is over 90% black. I do not say this in judgement; I'm pulling from census data. It has a significantly higher crime rate than the surrounding neighborhoods (and most of the crimes committed in the surrounding neighborhoods are car break-ins and minor theft with the occasional assault). Unfortunately, and I'm extrapolating here, this has been the case across big cities in the United States for many decades. Over time, as the old-school racists have died out, new-school racists have arrived because they have grown apathetic after observations of these facts.

Do black men get arrested unfairly more often than white men? Absolutely. Is the higher percentage of crime committed by black citizens? Yes, statistically speaking. Is this related to sub-par education, a high poverty rate, and the constant presence of a vicious cycle which dissuades young black men and women? Yes. In the apathetic's head, this justifies his or her racism. I'm not agreeing with this, I'm just reporting that the overwhelming majority of modern racism in the country is more to do with these things. Ask a white guy in his twenties why he's racist and he'll say something related to he's tired of supporting lazy people getting public support only for them to be criminals. That's not an excuse; there isn't one.

New generations of racists begin resenting their black peers for the (perceived) shortcomings of their parents and the crime statistics. What they fail to recognize is that their black peers are growing up without the networking and financial advantages they received. Inner-city schools near public housing are notoriously shit (often unaccredited) and exist without much financial support. They get the shittiest teachers who only show up for the paycheck. Young black kids in these school districts are given an opportunity through a public program to be shipped to a school in the suburbs, often some of the best schools in the area, if they excel academically from a young age. New-school racists will say these individuals were given chances, often citing this program, and have no sympathy for the 25 year old criminal that only knew poverty and was forced to theft or peddling drugs to eat, to survive. Here are the issues: 1) These schools are away from their friends. We cannot actually expect a thirteen year old child to have the maturity to stay away from the kids he grew up with because the public school system is failing his neighborhood. Racists are unable to (figuratively) put themselves in the shoes of these young children. 2) The kids that do participate in these programs often quit after awhile and return to the unaccredited school in their neighborhood. Sometimes because they were racially abused. Sometimes its for family reasons. Hell, sometimes it's probably because that individual really didn't want to put in the effort at a different school. But mostly, it's because of the stigma of arriving shipped in on a bus to a mostly-white (with republican parents whom oppose social benefit programs) school where they stick out like Heidi Klum at the Britannia. Then they are forced to use public-subsidized cards to purchase school lunches. Again, if these were adults, maybe you'd tell them to put their head down and work; but these are children, and we can't expect them to fix racism by being mature at an age where they don't know shit. Everybody at that school, and most of its recent graduates, are morons. Young people are dumb and shouldn't have to see that broader picture. But unfortunately, until the public school system stops failing these kids, that's exactly what we're asking them to do. 3) The peer pressure from the druggies that tell them that school isn't cool. And you know what, I don't think any one of us could say what we'd do if we were a thirteen year old black kid that's been racially stereotyped his whole life and a guy with a nice car and shoes came up to us and said, "School isn't taking you anywhere, you need to sell drugs for me."

 

[smat]

Javi Martinez

Fucking hell mate.

 

[Aber gas]

Racism in the United States will live and die with poverty and substandard education. I live nearby to a public housing project in St. Louis, a city with great racial tension if you've been hibernating the last year. It is over 90% black. I do not say this in judgement; I'm pulling from census data. It has a significantly higher crime rate than the surrounding neighborhoods (and most of the crimes committed in the surrounding neighborhoods are car break-ins and minor theft with the occasional assault). Unfortunately, and I'm extrapolating here, this has been the case across big cities in the United States for many decades. Over time, as the old-school racists have died out, new schools racists have arrived because they have grown apathetic after observations of these facts.

Do black men get arrested unfairly more often than white men? Absolutely. Is the higher percentage of crime committed by black citizens? Yes, statistically speaking. Is this related to sub-par education, a high poverty rate, and the constant presence of a vicious cycle which dissuades young black men and women? Yes. In the apathetic's head, this justifies his or her racism. I'm not agreeing with this, I'm just reporting that the overwhelming majority of modern racism in the country is more to do with these things. Ask a white guy in his twenties why he's racist and he'll say something related to he's tired of supporting lazy people getting public support only for them to be criminals. That's not an excuse; there isn't one.

New generations of racists begin resenting their black peers for the (perceived) shortcomings of their parents and the crime statistics. What they fail to recognize is that their black peers are growing up without the networking and financial advantages they received. Inner-city schools near public housing is notorious for shit schools (often unaccredited) without much financial support. They get the shittiest teachers who only show up for the paycheck. Young black kids in these school districts are given an opportunity through a public program to be shipped to a school in the suburbs, often some of the best schools in the area, if they excel academically from a young age. New-school racists will say these individuals were given chances, often citing this program, and have no sympathy for the 25 year old criminal that only knew poverty and was forced to theft or peddling drugs to eat, to survive. Here are the issues: 1) These schools are away from their friends. We cannot actually expect a thirteen year old child to have the maturity to stay away from the kids he grew up with because the public school system is failing his neighborhood. Racists are unable to (figuratively) put themselves in the shoes of these young children. 2) The kids that do participate in these programs often quit after awhile and return to the unaccredited school in their neighborhood. Sometimes because they were racially abused. Sometimes its for family reasons. Hell, sometimes it's probably because that individual really didn't want to put in the effort at a different school. But mostly, it's because of the stigma of arriving shipped in on a bus to a mostly-white (with republican parents whom oppose social benefit programs) school where they stick out like Heidi Klum at the Britannia. Then they are forced to use public-subsidized cards to purchase school lunches. Again, if these were adults, maybe you'd tell them to put their head down and work; but these are children, and we can't expect them to fix racism by being mature at an age where they don't know shit. Nobody at that school, and most of its recent graduates, are morons. Young people are dumb and shouldn't have to see that broader picture. But unfortunately, until the public school system stops failing these kids, they're forced into that situation. 3) The peer pressure from the druggies that tell them that school isn't cool. And you know what, I don't think any one of us could say what we'd do if we were a thirteen year old black kid that's been racially stereotyped his whole life and a guy with a nice car and shoes came up to us and said, "School isn't taking you anywhere, you need to sell drugs for me."

That post is far and away the best thing I've read on this forum .

 

[silkyman]

Good point.

I concur. Especially as the ancestors of the African Americans who might be offended had full and free choice to move to the U.S. in the first place....

 

[Red]

Project

That post is far and away the best thing I've read on this forum .

I agree, it's an excellent post. One minor criticism though thespus - just because you live there you're not getting away with spelling neighbourhood the yank way ooooh no!!!!

 

[Alty]

the problem: collective denial and complicity -- regurgitating thinly-veiled racist narratives to justify disproportionate stop and search policies against black youths and/or police brutality, creating carefully defined boundaries of success for black people and using them as proof of progression (i.e. black sports stars, but not black scientists), black students (black boys in particular) treated far more harshly for indiscipline on average than their white counterparts, research that shows that job applicants who appeared to be white would be nearly twice as likely to receive positive response than a minority applicant who had the same credentials, yet still outcry about unfairness of quotas in certain fields. These are just a few examples that spring to mind. As ever, though, the reality is far complex and insidious.

the solution: collective consciousness and collective responsibility; not be conflated with white guilt which is a useless emotional response. Similarly, not conflating criticism of your position within society as a personal attack. Nobody is suggesting that all white people have it easy, or even most, but being white learly gives you a significant social advantage, especially being a white man. These are the first basic steps. Getting over your ego and adopting a critical stance when engaging with mainstream narratives is something of a gamechanger because it compels you to think of not only racism in holistic terms, but general structural inequality too.

edit: 'royal' use of pronouns. of course i know that your grandparents didn't own no slaves....

Re "thinly-veiled racist narratives" and stop and search...we're in extremely awkward territory there, aren't we? I mean, if there is a disproportionate amount of a particular crime committed by a particular ethnic group, what is it we expect the police to do? When Trevor Phillips and Tariq Ghaffur go on the telly to bemoan the police's unwillingness to investigate certain crimes for fear of being branded racist...and when at the same time you hear about law-abiding black men having been stopped and searched literally 60 times...it just seems impossible to come up with a sensible way forward.

Genuinely don't know anything about black boys being subject to harsher disciplinary measures than other groups...I presume there's some evidence for this but I haven't seen it.

I certainly have seen the stuff about 'unconscious bias' when it comes to job applicants. Give people two comparable CVs and they're more likely to go for the bloke with a Scottish name than a Nigerian one. I don't really know how you 'fix' that other than via quotas. Which feels a bit more like treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

I get what you're saying re structural advantages. But there's a problem that people are slowly catching on to in this country - that of educational underachievement among white working class-boys. My partner, who works in the outreach sector (much, much nicer person than I am) says that trying to get charities/private enterprises to support programmes in predominantly white areas like Dagenham is incredibly difficult. Whereas in somewhere like Newham they're falling over themselves. Because it's seen as far sexier and there's a hell of a lot more positive publicity in "contributing to a cultutrally rich, diverse area" than there is in "giving hand-outs to chavs".

That was all a bit rambling. I'm thinking out loud more than anything else. But I guess what I'm saying is that I still think people's economic position is what defines their life chances more than anything else. Of course racism still exists and it should be tackled where it's encountered. But to me it feels like the issues of race and poverty have often been conflated in a rather unhelpful way.

 

[Red]

don't like a flag then fuck off somewhere else, ..........the white socks and sandals brigade get on my tits

Stick to slagging LFC off, it's what you're good at.

 

[BigDaveCUFC]

and now comes the ridiculous OTT stuff.

A film critic is saying we should bad cinema's showing Gone with the Wind as its racist, and also a game i have on Steam Ultimate General: Gettysberg has been removed from Appstore because it amazongly (for an american Civil war game) has confederate flags in it.

 

[Red]

Re "thinly-veiled racist narratives" and stop and search...we're in extremely awkward territory there, aren't we? I mean, if there is a disproportionate amount of a particular crime committed by a particular ethnic group, what is it we expect the police to do? When Trevor Phillips and Tariq Ghaffur go on the telly to bemoan the police's unwillingness to investigate certain crimes for fear of being branded racist...and when at the same time you hear about law-abiding black men having been stopped and searched literally 60 times...it just seems impossible to come up with a sensible way forward.

Genuinely don't know anything about black boys being subject to harsher disciplinary measures than other groups...I presume there's some evidence for this but I haven't seen it.

I certainly have seen the stuff about 'unconscious bias' when it comes to job applicants. Give people two comparable CVs and they're more likely to go for the bloke with a Scottish name than a Nigerian one. I don't really know how you 'fix' that other than via quotas. Which feels a bit more like treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

I get what you're saying re structural advantages. But there's a problem that people are slowly catching on to in this country - that of educational underachievement among white working class-boys. My partner, who works in the outreach sector (much, much nicer person than I am) says that trying to get charities/private enterprises to support programmes in predominantly white areas like Dagenham is incredibly difficult. Whereas in somewhere like Newham they're falling over themselves. Because it's seen as far sexier and there's a hell of a lot more positive publicity in "contributing to a cultutrally rich, diverse area" than there is in "giving hand-outs to chavs".

That was all a bit rambling. I'm thinking out loud more than anything else. But I guess what I'm saying is that I still think people's economic position is what defines their life chances more than anything else. Of course racism still exists and it should be tackled where it's encountered. But to me it feels like the issues of race and poverty have often been conflated in a rather unhelpful way.

But doesn't someone's race play a large role in people's economic position?

 

[Aber gas]

Re "thinly-veiled racist narratives" and stop and search...we're in extremely awkward territory there, aren't we? I mean, if there is a disproportionate amount of a particular crime committed by a particular ethnic group, what is it we expect the police to do? When Trevor Phillips and Tariq Ghaffur go on the telly to bemoan the police's unwillingness to investigate certain crimes for fear of being branded racist...and when at the same time you hear about law-abiding black men having been stopped and searched literally 60 times...it just seems impossible to come up with a sensible way forward.

Genuinely don't know anything about black boys being subject to harsher disciplinary measures than other groups...I presume there's some evidence for this but I haven't seen it.

I certainly have seen the stuff about 'unconscious bias' when it comes to job applicants. Give people two comparable CVs and they're more likely to go for the bloke with a Scottish name than a Nigerian one. I don't really know how you 'fix' that other than via quotas. Which feels a bit more like treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

I get what you're saying re structural advantages. But there's a problem that people are slowly catching on to in this country - that of educational underachievement among white working class-boys. My partner, who works in the outreach sector (much, much nicer person than I am) says that trying to get charities/private enterprises to support programmes in predominantly white areas like Dagenham is incredibly difficult. Whereas in somewhere like Newham they're falling over themselves. Because it's seen as far sexier and there's a hell of a lot more positive publicity in "contributing to a cultutrally rich, diverse area" than there is in "giving hand-outs to chavs".

That was all a bit rambling. I'm thinking out loud more than anything else. But I guess what I'm saying is that I still think people's economic position is what defines their life chances more than anything else. Of course racism still exists and it should be tackled where it's encountered. But to me it feels like the issues of race and poverty have often been conflated in a rather unhelpful way.

That is not my experience of outreach groups at all , I volunteer with both MIND and shelter both here in the valleys and in my home town of bristol and I've never seen enthusiasm for projects tempered by the colour or creed of the recipients. My wife is a teacher who works closely with child protection and through that with several childrens agencies and charity's , her work has never been affected by race or " kudos " . In fact I find the idea that outreach workers whether charitable or paid would seek kudos through only working with certain racial groups ridiculous , disparaging and idiotic .

 

[Alty]

That is not my experience of outreach groups at all , I volunteer with both MIND and shelter both here in the valleys and in my home town of bristol and I've never seen enthusiasm for projects tempered by the colour or creed of the recipients. My wife is a teacher who works closely with child protection and through that with several childrens agencies and charity's , her work has never been affected by race or " kudos " . In fact I find the idea that outreach workers whether charitable or paid would seek kudos through only working with certain racial groups ridiculous , disparaging and idiotic .

I'm not talking about outreach workers themselves. I'm talking about trying to get a social enterprise to run events or a law firm to deliver a presentation.

 

[Alty]

But doesn't someone's race play a large role in people's economic position?

Chicken and egg. But the fact that the vast majority of non-White Brits' families have only been here for the last couple of generations means they're behind the eight ball to a certain extent. But not specifically because of their race.

 

[silkyman]

and now comes the ridiculous OTT stuff.

A film critic is saying we should bad cinema's showing Gone with the Wind as its racist, and also a game i have on Steam Ultimate General: Gettysberg has been removed from Appstore because it amazongly (for an american Civil war game) has confederate flags in it.

This is, of course, where it gets stupid. Not flying it outside official buildings is one thing, but the Civil War is a thing that happened and you can't ban all reference to it. I think all but a few addled weirdos and c*** accept that the Nazis were 'bad' but we don't ban all reference to WW2.

Anyway, North and South was an ace game BITD

 

[thespus]

This post which was submitted to R/StLouis (sub-reddit for those unaware) this morning which presents an interesting observation from an outsider visiting St. Louis.

"I visited St. Louis from Chicago for the Cubs Cardinals game this weekend. Stayed at a hotel in Clayton, went up in the arch, went to the ballpark. Had a lot of fun. What was odd was that over 90% of the workers I encountered (the staff at the hotel, the workers at the Arch, and the vendors at the ballpark) were black. Is there a reason for this? I'll admit it made me feel a little strange, particularly going to a baseball game with 90% plus white people in attendance, and then there were more black people there serving food than in attendance watching the game."

People observe these things—and not that the person whom submitted this content is incorrect, ignorant, etc.—but don't see right through its superficial appearance. There is nothing inaccurate about this statement, and 90% is possibly a conservative estimate, but unfortunately some will see these realities and posit laziness, a lack of ambition, and even more offensive superiority shit. They extend the observations of this data and create theories, often ignoring or dismissing the black man that works in his/her law firm or the black woman conduction business while in line at the coffee shop that morning. These are the exceptions, obviously, because look at all the black people serving white people. Unfortunately, it's this isolated mindset that promotes broad judgement rather than understanding that it's a bunch of poor folks whom don't have money to go to baseball games, so they take these unskilled positions because the opportunities to acquire skill, or the inheritance money which grants extra time to acquire skills, don't exist for them.

Not to mention there are a bunch of racists that love baseball. It's difficult to subject your children to an experience where they'll be looked at like unicorns while walking around the concourse eating popcorn and drinking soda. It's this unremarkable, mundane oppression that is lost on the new generations of racists whom are number to long standing tension and make conclusions based off isolated observations without context. The issue: how do we come together and fix such intangible racism? I think it all reverts back to the failures of the public school system for poor children in inner-cities, but how do we convince bureaucracy and tax-payers to fund this properly without further polarizing racial tension? How do we fix the "us vs. them" mentality that seems to grow stronger and stronger among extreme racists and those who have been the victim off oppression for so long that objectivity is more difficult to come by. How does a middle-class white man teach at a largely black high school and receive the respect of his students and deliver the message that school is cool and it will lead to opportunities? It's tough because his students will have jaded parents, siblings, etc. that have seen no light at the end of the tunnel and find it difficult to believe the word of this man, no matter how genuine his desire to improve his students' lives might be.

 

[johnnytodd]

1. In the 16th – 18th century, Africans enslaved 1.5 million White Europeans in the Barbary Slave Trade. African Muslims raided up the coastlines of Europe, particularly the British Isles but even as far as Iceland, kidnapping and enslaving White European Christians. The men were galley slaves, and the women were sex slaves. This was more brutal than working on a plantation or as a domestic servant.

 

[Stevencc]

....

 

[Aber gas]

1. In the 16th – 18th century, Africans enslaved 1.5 million White Europeans in the Barbary Slave Trade. African Muslims raided up the coastlines of Europe, particularly the British Isles but even as far as Iceland, kidnapping and enslaving White European Christians. The men were galley slaves, and the women were sex slaves. This was more brutal than working on a plantation or as a domestic servant.

well , thanks for that , very informative . Is there a point that you're trying to make ?

 

[johnnytodd]

well , thanks for that , very informative . Is there a point that you're trying to make ?

If white people started moaning about slavery they would called racists, so they can all fuck off.

 

[Aber gas]

If white people started moaning about slavery they would called racists, so they can all fuck off.

Who can fuck off , the White people moaning about slavery ? Sorry if I'm being slow but I don't get it .

 

[johnnytodd]

Who can fuck off , the White people moaning about slavery ? Sorry if I'm being slow but I don't get it .

no the pc brigade wanting flags banned and all tha shit.........just fuck off you sad twats

 

[Aber gas]

no the pc brigade wanting flags banned and all tha shit.........just fuck off you sad twats

Ok i get it now , your talking bollocks . Get in the bin

 

[Tilbury]

When is this moron going to be banned.

 

[johnnytodd]

When is this moron going to be banned.

Just stating FACTS

 

[johnnytodd]

Ok i get it now , your talking bollocks . Get in the bin

all facts buddy but it dont sell papers to the pc brigade