David Moyes back to the BPL

[PDS]

I think this is a great piece on Moyes and I agree with most of it: http://www.joe.co.uk/sport/sunderla...hey-risk-being-this-seasons-aston-villa/95415

He should stay in charge and build Sunderland an identity. Their squad is an awful mish-mash of half a dozen managers' ideas. Yes they'll probably go down, but look at Newcastle. It doesn't look like it's doing them any harm. They've got a good manager who is being allowed to build the team in his image and they'll almost certainly be back in the Premier League next season, stronger than they were when they went down.

Good article which seems spot on. You almost feel like relegation would be good for Sunderland to allow them to completely restructure their playing squad. It might take a couple of seasons to build a team worthy of challenging in the Championship but it would root out the problems within the dressing room.

Not to mention their recruitment policy, which for years, has led to them consistently signing over 30's on relatively high wages. Completely unsustainable and short sighted.

Of course they could do a Leeds/ Forest etc. if they do go down. The Championship is the most competitive league in the country - the only way to avoid that is a restructure and an skilled coach (Which Moyes still is)

 

[St. Juste]

Nah, no way would Moyes have been a candidate if not for him being pushed forward for the role by Ferguson. You're kidding yourself. What you're effectively expecting me to buy into is that one of the biggest clubs in world football, a club which had gone no more than a couple of seasons without winning major trophies over the previous two decades, and that was a regular power in European football, would have considered hiring someone who had no winning experience whatsoever beyond promotion from the second tier and whose Champions League experience was negligible at best? What happened with Moyes was entirely predictable.

It's United. They could have had anyone had they made a move. Pretty much any manager with a winning mentality and major trophies under his belt would have been a better option.

And Chelsea hired Di Matteo. And Avram Grant. And Liverpool hired Rodgers. And Arsenal hired some unknown Frenchman called Wenger. And Barcelona hired Guardiola whose only experience was in the B team. And Real hired Zidane. And so on, and so on.

Big clubs hiring managers without a record of exceptional prior achievement? It happens all the time. Carlo Ancelotti can't do every job.

But if there really were many terrific options available, why don't you name some?

 

[Pagnell]

And Chelsea hired Di Matteo. And Avram Grant. And Liverpool hired Rodgers. And Arsenal hired some unknown Frenchman called Wenger. And Barcelona hired Guardiola whose only experience was in the B team. And Real hired Zidane. And so on, and so on.

Big clubs hiring managers without a record of exceptional prior achievement? It happens all the time. Carlo Ancelotti can't do every job.

But if there really were many terrific options available, why don't you name some?

Chelsea putting Di Matteo in after AVB was sacked was always a short term thing, and would have remained so had they not won the CL. Likewise Avram Grant, who got Chelsea further than Mourinho ever did in the CL up to that point and finished 2nd in the league, yet was binned anyway. Neither Liverpool or Arsenal at the time were in anything like the same position as United when Ferguson retired, so both are stupid comparisons. With Manchester United it should have been about continuing where the Scot had left off, keeping the club as one of the biggest in the world, and regularly winning titles and major trophies. How they expected to do that with Moyes is anyone's guess. You can't manage a club like Manchester United and start every game with a primary objective of not losing, yet that has always been Moyes' attitude to football. It was at Everton and he continued it when he took over from Ferguson. For a team of United's size it's about winning games first and foremost, and you kick off fully expecting to do that. He wasn't suitable from day one and that was made abundantly clear.

 

[St. Juste]

Chelsea putting Di Matteo in after AVB was sacked was always a short term thing, and would have remained so had they not won the CL. Likewise Avram Grant, who got Chelsea further than Mourinho ever did in the CL up to that point and finished 2nd in the league, yet was binned anyway. Neither Liverpool or Arsenal at the time were in anything like the same position as United when Ferguson retired, so both are stupid comparisons. With Manchester United it should have been about continuing where the Scot had left off, keeping the club as one of the biggest in the world, and regularly winning titles and major trophies. How they expected to do that with Moyes is anyone's guess. You can't manage a club like Manchester United and start every game with a primary objective of not losing, yet that has always been Moyes' attitude to football. It was at Everton and he continued it when he took over from Ferguson. For a team of United's size it's about winning games first and foremost, and you kick off fully expecting to do that. He wasn't suitable from day one and that was made abundantly clear.

You are trying to explain away each comparison but it doesn't quite work, Man Utd hiring Moyes makes far more sense than Barcelona hiring Guardiola, or Real hiring Zidane. It makes far more sense than Arsenal hiring Wenger (who were also a big club at the time) or Liverpool hiring Rodgers.

I don't think any of their past three appointments have been suitable, but great managers are very hard to come by.

Are you willing to name some of the choices at the time who would have been better? It is the third time I've asked.

You seem to be advancing the theory that Moyes only got the job because he is Scottish - which is extremely tenuous. Did Ferguson ever favour Scottish players at Man Utd? No, he was the greatest manager of all time because he didn't have some biases. Yes, he might have been friends with Moyes but I'm not sure that is connected to them having the same nationality.

Moyes would have been a candidate regardless of nationality and, even though it didn't work out, looking back he was one of the favourites for the job and rightly so.

With regards to the original point, is he better than Allardyce? Well, all the evidence seems to suggest so. Regarded as less of an awful human being too.

 

[Pagnell]

You are trying to explain away each comparison but it doesn't quite work, Man Utd hiring Moyes makes far more sense than Barcelona hiring Guardiola, or Real hiring Zidane. It makes far more sense than Arsenal hiring Wenger (who were also a big club at the time) or Liverpool hiring Rodgers.

It works perfectly, because they're shit comparisons. First off, I didn't suggest Arsenal weren't a big club in the mid 90s, but to suggest they were anything like in the position United were when Fergsuon retired is plain bollocks. And the same very much goes for Rodgers and Liverpool. In both cases the clubs hadn't won a major trophy for years and were trying to get back to winning ways, Ferguson left with United as the title holders and with the team regularly hitting the latter stages of the CL.

As for Guardiola and Zidane, that's also different. Both had no managerial experience beyond the B team of both clubs, and clearly the clubs saw something in their management there that they liked. Both were winners as players. No guarantee of success of course but they were a blank sheets almost. Both legends at the clubs so give them a go and see how they do, both have done well. United knew what features they'd be getting with Moyes after a decade of watching him at Everton, and with a cursory glance would have known a winning mentality wasn't one of them. He wasn't suitable to manager such a club and wouldn't have gotten the job if not for Ferguson. I'd say Moyes is one of his biggest errors of judgment in 25 years of managing Manchester United.

I don't think any of their past three appointments have been suitable, but great managers are very hard to come by.

They are indeed. But a difficulty in finding great managers doesn't suggest for a minute Moyes was anything other than a shit choice.

Are you willing to name some of the choices at the time who would have been better? It is the third time I've asked.

You seem to be under the rather bemusing impression that my not naming specific managers that would have been more suitable somehow makes Moyes suitable for the job. As I said, Manchester United at the time could have had pretty much anyone within reason. Ancelotti, you mention yourself, I've no doubt they could have had him had they got in before Real. Premier League winning experience as well, by far the best choice. Mourinho prior to his second stint at Chelsea would have been a better bet too, and he basically made it clear he wanted the job. Him only staying at clubs short term makes him less than ideal in the long run mind, and that is still the case now. Hell, even Capello would have been a better choice, just one look at what he'd achieved prior to his disastrous England stint shows how good he can be. All with winning experience and a winning mentality, and all they could have had. It didn't even have to be a long term thing, just long enough until the upcoming managers like Guardiola, Klopp, Simone or even Conte could be poached with the next decade in mind.

With regards to the original point, is he better than Allardyce? Well, all the evidence seems to suggest so. Regarded as less of an awful human being too.

I'd say choosing between Allardyce and Moyes is a bit of a shit choice. Neither particularly good but both having their plus points. Depending what a team wants either could be a better choice over the other but overall I'd say Moyes is the better manager. Marginally.

 

[St. Juste]

As for Guardiola and Zidane, that's also different. Both had no managerial experience beyond the B team of both clubs, and clearly the clubs saw something in their management there that they liked. Both were winners as players. No guarantee of success of course but they were a blank sheets almost. Both legends at the clubs so give them a go and see how they do, both have done well. United knew what features they'd be getting with Moyes after a decade of watching him at Everton, and with a cursory glance would have known a winning mentality wasn't one of them. He wasn't suitable to manager such a club and wouldn't have gotten the job if not for Ferguson. I'd say Moyes is one of his biggest errors of judgment in 25 years of managing Manchester United.

They are indeed. But a difficulty in finding great managers doesn't suggest for a minute Moyes was anything other than a shit choice.

You seem to be under the rather bemusing impression that my not naming specific managers that would have been more suitable somehow makes Moyes suitable for the job. As I said, Manchester United at the time could have had pretty much anyone within reason. Ancelotti, you mention yourself, I've no doubt they could have had him had they got in before Real. Premier League winning experience as well, by far the best choice. Mourinho prior to his second stint at Chelsea would have been a better bet too, and he basically made it clear he wanted the job. Him only staying at clubs short term makes him less than ideal in the long run mind, and that is still the case now. Hell, even Capello would have been a better choice, just one look at what he'd achieved prior to his disastrous England stint shows how good he can be. All with winning experience and a winning mentality, and all they could have had. It didn't even have to be a long term thing, just long enough until the upcoming managers like Guardiola, Klopp, Simone or even Conte could be poached with the next decade in mind.

I'd say choosing between Allardyce and Moyes is a bit of a shit choice. Neither particularly good but both having their plus points. Depending what a team wants either could be a better choice over the other but overall I'd say Moyes is the better manager. Marginally.

Well, "also different" but a clear example that yes, huge clubs do hire plenty of managers with less than stellar managerial records, Moyes is one of the more realistic choices if anything. Compared to Tito Vilanova, Luis Enrique etc. his achievements more than stack up.

I really don't know what this supposed winning mentality is but it seems totally arbirtrary. Gary Neville and Roy Keane had a winning mentality, did they? It didn't stop them being awful managers. Moyes would deservedly get the job ahead of either of those two despite them fitting many of the criteria you apply to Pep or Zidane.

I don't think you can call it an error of judgment by Ferguson as it certainly wasn't solely his choice, and even now with all the benefit of hindisght you can't provide a single better name!

I don't think there's any chance they could have got Ancelotti, Real are the biggest club in the world, Madrid is a better place to stay than Manchester. As for Jose, the fans were deeply against his appointment at the time. Capello stopped trying years ago and hadn't even bothered to learn English.

You don't like Moyes, you think he's a poor manager and didn't deserve the Man Utd job. Fine, but I don't consider the appointment ludicrous - most people didn't at the time - as I certainly don't think it's all down to some Jock-spiracy. SAF has lived in England for the past 30 years, I don't think he ever cared in the slightest that Moyes was Scottish. He was probably the best British coach available at the time, there's maybe a slightly better case for that.

 

[Pagnell]

Ok, let's agree to differ. I believed then it was a shit appointment that was doomed to failure from the start and said so at the time, my view hasn't changed and why should it have when it was proved correct. You don't believe it was a shit appointment. Great. Next.

 

[Stevencc]

Ok, let's agree to differ. I believed then it was a shit appointment that was doomed to failure from the start and said so at the time, my view hasn't changed and why should it have when it was proved correct. You don't believe it was a shit appointment. Great. Next.

Well, he was shit as well.

 

[Pagnell]

Slightly less shit though.

 

[Stevencc]

Yep, progress!

 

[Pagnell]

Another 4-5 managers and you could be challenging for the title again!

 

[JimJams]

Does that mean they'll still win it before Liverpool?

 

[Pagnell]

More than likely knowing us.

 

[St. Juste]

Ok, let's agree to differ. I believed then it was a shit appointment that was doomed to failure from the start and said so at the time, my view hasn't changed and why should it have when it was proved correct. You don't believe it was a shit appointment. Great. Next.

Fair enough. Out of interest, what were your thoughts on the Pep and Zidane appointments? I thought both were big risks and would be poor appointments, glad to be proven wrong on that one.

I correctly predicted Keane and Neville would be awful though.

 

[Stevencc]

Of course they would, one is Irish and the other is English.

 

[St. Juste]

Of course they would, one is Irish and the other is English.

Neither have great coaching traditions, that is fair.

I can see Giggs being terrible too.

Appointments that always looked quite good? Pochettino at Southampton, then latterly Spurs - despite the furore when he got the job. Liked the like of Koeman at Everton too.

 

[smat]

Second straight win.

 

[Pagnell]

Cue the Preston Cha making a return visit proclaiming Moyes to be Sunderland's saviour and the best manager in the league.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Victor Anichebe scoring 3 goals in two games.
Must be a sign of end times.

 

[Destruction]

Moyes out foxing the Premier League champions? Thought he couldn't mix it with the big boys Pags...

 

[Pagnell]

Wait, did he really just beat a team at home that had won 1 in their previous 8 league games?

#impressive

 

[JimJams]

Weve taken 1 point in the last month and were fortunate with that. Beating us isnt any kind of feat right now. We're worse now than when we were rooted to the bottom 2 seasons ago. Just lucky others are worse. Thanks West Ham.

 

[Destruction]

You can only beat what's put in front you of lads, and that's exactly what Premier League manager of the month nominee David Moyes has done.

 

[Pagnell]

I'm surprised though Des. I really wasn't expecting you to make an appearance once he won a few games.....

 

[Destruction]

I'm surprised though Des. I really wasn't expecting you to make an appearance once he won a few games.....

Not the case at all, I'm here posting after a 2-2 draw so...?

 

[Mr. Scruff]

Absolutely loving this fraud being found out.

To think a sizable group of people actually believed he should have been given more time at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

Just feel sorry for the Sunderland fans who have to listen to his unique blend of arrogance and self pity whilst throwing the players under a bus each week.

 

[Pagnell]

My opinion of Moyes is no secret, but even I'm surprised at how shit he's doing at the moment.

 

[SALTIRE]

Tbf to him they didn't give him a penny to improve the squad in January where he had to rely on bringing in a few old crocks from his Everton days and they are hardly going to get Sunderland flying.

It's a Championship squad - with the exception of Defoe - and they've been pushing against the tide for years, but this year it's finally going to push them out and relegation beckons.

 

[Stevencc]

Saltire defending the honour of a Scotsman?

Never seen that before!

 

[SALTIRE]

Saltire defending the honour of a Scotsman?

Never seen that before!

Na its just more of a case of Moyes not getting finances to back him either in the summer or in January and it was never going to help him with that squad. He knew what he was taking on though.