Derby sack Paul Clement

[ChelloRam]

I'd disagree with that. Bournemouth went up doing just that last season, we finished 5th straight out of League 1. Derby have had many periods over the past couple of years playing some great football. I know there aren't too many teams doing that and doing well, but I'd argue that's because there aren't many teams trying to play that way in the first place, not that it can't work well.

I'd argue it's actually harder to go up just being attritional in this league, which seems to be the typical style. If most teams play that way then typically it's just going to boil down to which teams have the best individuals.

Bournemouth played a similar style to How we played over the past 2 years, fast attacking and possession based. This season we have been so slow in our play, it's been bleeding pedestrian. No urgency to play good football and move up the pitch, just piss about at the back for 5 minutes at a time and hope there is an opening. I stand by what I say, that approach is simply not suited to this league and never will be.

He was out of his depth and started to regress even further into an even more negative approach. Mel Morris has been clear that before he was given the job, the brief and objective was to continue to play with the superb passing and attacking play whilst bolstering the team with better players. He has failed in all that was expected of him. Trust me people, the football has been fucking dreadful to watch and couldn't continue.

 

[Luke_1884]

The signs are there though.

We told you when Morris went into the dressing room that there was trouble brewing.

Some of the shit on twitter after that happened. ''You don't make the money Mel has without being ruthless.'' This is football, the second you interfere with the manager that you have appointed, you're in trouble. It also stinks of desperation. I think MM has probably realised that with the amount of money spent, you probably do need promotion this season, contrary to what he said. There is no reason to sack a manager in 5th place otherwise. It's just not that bad yet. If you went 2/3 more without a win then yes you could maybe look at it, but it was clearly a panic move wasn't it?

Indeed they are, that's why this next appointment is crucial.

This is far from "panic", we'd have had someone lined up to come straight in if it was make or break IMO. Why give Walsall a few games to potentially piss up the wall? There's only 16 left. I appreciate you and others won't have watched and read all the interviews over the past day or so and from an outsider looking in it looks like PC's been sacked because of a 7 game winless run but it's far from it. This goes much deeper than that.

As far as FFP goes I don't know the ins and outs bar the fact your losses are allowed to be greater than previous years. Bournemouth paid a pound for every excess pound in losses, so potentially a 6-14 (guesswork) million pound fine for us in 2 years. Mel's probably just forked out the lower end of that scale to pay the previous coaching regime off so I doubt he'll be too bothered. The problem will be a potential embargo if we're still at this level.. and we'll rightly deserve it if it ever does come to that.

 

[Luke_1884]

Here you are, a bit of reverse psychology... Paul wanted promotion this year and the club didn't!

Derby County owner Mel Morris insists promotion was never the aim this season and says head coach Paul Clement was sacked because of his short-term view.

Clement only lasted for eight months despite the Rams being fifth in the Championship, five points off top spot.

Morris told BBC East Midlands Today: "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set.

"But I just had no belief that was going to happen."

Morris added: "Paul's horizon was shorter term than ours. With all good intent I think Paul had a slightly different view.

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

WTF is a "rising tide of performance"?

Bizarre.

 

[Rammy]

He keeps coming out with such bollocks

He was asking by BBC Sport if we will fail FFP, andsaid that obviously Clement's compensation will make a dent but he 'believes' we will still fall within the regulations.

I don't particularly believe a word he says anymore.

 

[Luke_1884]

Talks a good talk. He'll be judged on results just like managers are and he's off to a bad start already. Make the right appointment and after do us all a favour and take a step back.

 

[Munkiki]

This is far from "panic", we'd have had someone lined up to come straight in if it was make or break IMO.

Well not really. It there was more to it and this was in the works regardless of results, you'd have had someone lined up. Sacking someone without a replacement ready to come straight doesn't suggest a well-thought-out plan, certainly wouldn't give the impression that it is "far from panic" anyway.

 

[THE TERRACEMAN]

Looking from the outside and being fairly local I honestly get the feeling that sheep fans are deluded and think and believe they are a much bigger club than they actually are. The way things are shaping up at the moment Nigel Clough will be back there next season but this time leading out Burton Albion !
I really don't know what Sheep fans would do if they suffered a loss to us !

 

[Luke_1884]

Well not really. It there was more to it and this was in the works regardless of results, you'd have had someone lined up. Sacking someone without a replacement ready to come straight doesn't suggest a well-thought-out plan, certainly wouldn't give the impression that it is "far from panic" anyway.

What are we panicking about though? Because we're not going up? Far from it. From MM's perspective; letting a guy carry on who is showing no player or team improvement, no co-operation as to what is required and decreasing the value of the squad would probably be a worse plan. Sounds like MM and PC sat down and had a chat a few weeks ago to address the "bigger picture" if you like, ever since then I'd be surprised if MM had not thought about potential possibilities ahead concerning PC and who would cover/replace him.

Darren Walsall is a more than appropriate replacement for now, not only is he MM's lover, he's also the philosopher of "the Derby way" bullshit we want to follow. He's firmly in the clubs ethos regardless of who's manager. If he doesn't get the gig full-time he'll drop back down and run the Academy again.

 

[Luke_1884]

Looking from the outside and being fairly local I honestly get the feeling that sheep fans are deluded and think and believe they are a much bigger club than they actually are. The way things are shaping up at the moment Nigel Clough will be back there next season but this time leading out Burton Albion !
I really don't know what Sheep fans would do if they suffered a loss to us !

Who put 20p in you.

 

[ChelloRam]

Looking from the outside and being fairly local I honestly get the feeling that sheep fans are deluded and think and believe they are a much bigger club than they actually are. The way things are shaping up at the moment Nigel Clough will be back there next season but this time leading out Burton Albion !
I really don't know what Sheep fans would do if they suffered a loss to us !

What's your actual point with the drivel you've posted? Derby are one of the biggest clubs in the championship, nobody would disagree with that. You seem to have a significant inferiority complex and I have no idea why. I don't know anyone that doesn't actually like Burton from a Derby perspective, seems like you have one about us. Let's not forget, many Derby fans (that live in South Derbys) go to the Pirelli when Derby are playing away, my elderly parents for example.

Good luck with the promotion push, Ben Robinson has done wonders for a club your size.

 

[THE TERRACEMAN]

Who put 20p in you.

No bite, I have said what I want to say.

 

[THE TERRACEMAN]

What's your actual point with the drivel you've posted? Derby are one of the biggest clubs in the championship, nobody would disagree with that. You seem to have a significant inferiority complex and I have no idea why. I don't know anyone that doesn't actually like Burton from a Derby perspective, seems like you have one about us. Let's not forget, many Derby fans (that live in South Derbys) go to the Pirelli when Derby are playing away, my elderly parents for example.

Good luck with the promotion push, Ben Robinson has done wonders for a club your size.

I am sorry if you can't see the point, I guess that's what I was referring too.
Thanks for the good luck message.

 

[Layer Cake]

So much to take in, and yet so much can be said. Strangely, I feel it was the correct decision. Judging by what MM said tonight, my earlier post was spot on, if the standard of football had been better, regardless of results he'd still been in a job. Its a strange one.
He needs to keep his mouth shut for a bit now though, instead of putting his foot in it. I genuinely feel he's trying to do the right thing, and instill a feel good factor around the club, style of football that's enjoying to watch, the freebies he's given away to ST holders, the gesture to Hartlepool and so on. He is local, and a fan of the club, I don't think he would put the long term future of the club at threat so I believe we are within FFP regulations. He just needs to let DW get on with it now and stay behind the scenes.

 

[ChelloRam]

I am sorry if you can't see the point, I guess that's what I was referring too.
Thanks for the good luck message.

No, I cannot see what point you're trying to make. You are trying to have a dig at Derby fans who think we're a big club in this division. I pointed out that we are, and probably one of the 4 or 5 biggest clubs in the division. Nothing is untrue about that. There certainly aren't any Derby fans that post on here that have delusions of grandeur (Leestand excluded - who isn't an actual Derby fan).

 

[Rammy]

WE'RE THE BIGGEST CLUB IN THE WORLD!!!!

:hesk:

 

[Munkiki]

What are we panicking about though? Because we're not going up? Far from it. From MM's perspective; letting a guy carry on who is showing no player or team improvement, no co-operation as to what is required and decreasing the value of the squad would probably be a worse plan. Sounds like MM and PC sat down and had a chat a few weeks ago to address the "bigger picture" if you like, ever since then I'd be surprised if MM had not thought about potential possibilities ahead concerning PC and who would cover/replace him.

Darren Walsall is a more than appropriate replacement for now, not only is he MM's lover, he's also the philosopher of "the Derby way" bullshit we want to follow. He's firmly in the clubs ethos regardless of who's manager. If he doesn't get the gig full-time he'll drop back down and run the Academy again.

I was disagreeing with your reasoning rather than your conclusion. I don't know (nor really care) if you are panicking. Just saying that sacking someone with no replacement lined up looks more panicky than not.

 

[SamScfc]

Just listened to Melanie's interview on BBC. What a strange man. He says he's not concerned about promotion, but sacks a manager, a rookie manager who has no pressure on him because of the no necessity to go up. So he basically had a free hit in his first season as a manager.

This is probably one of the strangest decisions I've come across.

 

[Mansfield_Ram]

Just want to say that I agree with Luke on pretty much everything he's said in this thread.

It all comes down to philosophy. MM appoints clement and says "I want to play a brand of football like mclaren but I'll give you better footballers with lots of money". Clement says "no problemo". Clement starts talking about promotion in response to lots of questions about it. Football remains bland and slow with glimpses of the previous quality attacking football. Clement recently has a dilemma where performances and results are poor and clement argues that the style needs to change. We lose a few more & draw a few and clement disagrees with philosophy directly to Morris stating it won't win promotion. They argue, MM states promotion isn't target yet, clement wants to make s big impact and impression for his own personal reputation, they don't agree and Morris sacks him.

All that I can agree with and I can't even argue with. Especially as Morris' role as chairman is to ensure that when clement is gone (sacked or leaves for an other club) we can bring someone in who has the same philosophy. What I find bizarre is the signings. I'd personally look at Sam Rush who's employed some right fucking idiots (Chris Evans and the guy from Brighton who's name escapes me) who obviously don't fit into the same philosophy as what Morris wants because only Butterfield would fit in a passing and movement style game. Ollson and Christie early doors look potentially a fit. They're both gone as well which means the hit list is quite big.

Overall - I think on the face of it, Clement was the wrong man originally. He shouldn't have been restricted to a certain philosophy of playing football as he needs to develop and understand his own education as a manager including what style he wants his teams to incorporate.

 

[Mansfield_Ram]

Just listened to Melanie's interview on BBC. What a strange man. He says he's not concerned about promotion, but sacks a manager, a rookie manager who has no pressure on him because of the no necessity to go up. So he basically had a free hit in his first season as a manager.

This is probably one of the strangest decisions I've come across.

From the outside looking in, I can't argue with you. If I was reading about it about another championship club I'd agree too.

 

[ChelloRam]

Agree with Mansfield Ram, looking from the outside people are baffled and don't understand it. Thing is, they haven't had to watch the shite all season. Clement hasn't bought better players, he's wasted a lot of money on similar standard and in some cases poorer players.

 

[Mansfield_Ram]

This I agree with

From Duracell on dfcfans

I've had a hard time piecing it all together, until this snippet from BBC Sport:

"Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set."

"He was the one who wanted promotion this season."

"We wanted to build on the squad, develop them, get on a rising tide of performance and let that carry us through into the Premier League - whether that was this season, next season or beyond. I think, for Paul, that was too long a view."

This completely changes the "he can be our Sir Alex" comment from Mel in November, for me.

I reckon that was when the start of the breakdown in the working relationship happened. Mel thinks Clement is becoming too focused on the results, and on promotion. The "short-term view" thing - think, why would a young manager want promotion so quickly?

At that point in November, Clement had a hat-trick of nominations for Manager of the Month. Derby were in a good run of form - the performances weren't scintillating, sure, but for a rookie manager, that's an impressive thing to have on your CV. He was being interviewed by national radio and national newspapers. This is a English young manager, matching expectations and handling pressure well in his first post, with a glowing reference from Carlo Ancellotti and experience working at Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid (was anyone else getting a little sick of that?).

Put simply, if Paul Clement got Derby promoted, he is incredibly hot property. If there is one thing that's obvious from Clement's career, it's that he's bloody ambitious. The rewards for him on a professional level in getting us promoted this season was huge, and joining Derby County with a huge war chest from Mel Morris presented him with almost the perfect opportunity to keep his dramatic upwards career trajectory in motion.

Then you have Mel Morris. He sees a young manager who has an opportunity to grow with Derby County. Perhaps his comments in November citing SAF were about reminding Clement that this job is about building something which lasts for a long time. The football he wants is to build on the excitement of the past few seasons, with a more robust squad to help the cause.

Let me highlight something Morris said again - "Up until the last couple of weeks we've been trying to work with Paul to get him to embrace the plans we set." That changes Mel Morris' backing from "dear fans, this guy Paul Clement really could be our next Sir Alex Ferguson" to "Paul, listen to what I'm telling the fans - if you want it, you can grow something special with us, something akin to Ferguson at United. I won't sack you if we don't go up this season, so I'm giving you the time and resources to do it."

What I see now is two men whose working relationship became increasingly strained by working to different goals. Mel Morris, the owner and fan, who wants to see Derby County promoted and stay there, with a team full of local lads. Then there is Paul Clement, the ambitious young manager, with all this money to spend and a cracking opportunity to get a promotion on his CV in the first season of his first job.

Morris wants performances, improvement, and a team spirit - promotion follows.

Clement wants promotion. Everything else follows.

These two positions became irreconcilable, culminating in club which is being pulled in more than one direction. Interesting that Morris also implied that he was trying to get past their differences "up until the past couple of weeks." The last few weeks in particular have been the worst in terms of performances. Add to that rumours of unrest in the squad, and increasingly, something has to give way.


And in that situation, only one person was ever going to make way.

 

[Luke_1884]

Just want to say that I agree with Luke on pretty much everything he's said in this thread.

Maybe we were separated at birth mate, I only live the other side of Pleasely after all.

Saturday can't come quick enough.

EDIT: What's not been mentioned on here which is quite a big point IMO is the fact that there's players in this squad that have either been bought at a certain price or we have valued over the summer to knock back clubs (Martin 10m, Hendrick 4m) that have arguably decreased in value.

In the summer I was pleased with our signings, they looked like good ones but I also thought their sell on value would be pretty decent too if it didn't quite work out.

Weimann was bought for 2.5 million and hasn't even been making the match day squads, Ince is a shadow of himself at 4 million, Johnson for 6! We'd get no where near that much back after his showings recently. We've somehow ruined one of the best strikers in the division and with Hendrick potentially having a big, big summer ahead it was key to get the best out of him too. As well as not improving the players, we haven't done a great job of taking care of club "assets" from a financial point either.

 

[Mansfield_Ram]

Saturday will be so interesting for team selection, tactics and performance.

 

[M Dogg]

Reading this last page, I think I can slightly understand it a bit more. I don't watch enough of Derby to know how the football is.

Interesting if MM has decided that Clement was too focussed on the short and not the long term. I just find it hard to believe that he is that averse to gaining promotion this year. Perhaps it's faster than expected but you don't sack a manager for accelerating his plan.

Also- if you wanted to flood a load of youngsters I'd suggest not buying every player not nailed down...

Think it's clear the next move will explain MM thinking. The fact he didn't do what we did and replace a manager (SOD) with a big name (Mcleish) to try and get instant success suggests that maybe he does have a longer vision.

Maybe a Dirwctor of football is what he needs.

 

[Luke_1884]

Also- if you wanted to flood a load of youngsters I'd suggest not buying every player not nailed down...

Aye, this is the bit that doesn't make any sense at all. He's gone on record loads to say he wants us to promote youth and use our academy but he's also spent near on 25 million pounds so I'm not quite sure how he expects it to happen. Very contradictory.

 

[ChelloRam]

[QUOTE="M Dogg, post: 343929, member: 53I just find it hard to believe that he is that averse to gaining promotion this year. Perhaps it's faster than expected but you don't sack a manager for accelerating his plan.

Also- if you wanted to flood a load of youngsters I'd suggest not buying every player not nailed down...
[/QUOTE]

He wasn't averse to promotion this season, he wants us to play nice attacking, free flowing football, like we've seen for the last couple of seasons. He wants the whole ethos around the actual performances on the pitch, not just the result. Mel Morris has stated that all along. He has said that they had discussed this with Clement but he says that Clements mindset was all about promotion and not the long term strategy that the club had. He also said that if Clement had changed his mindset, even yesterday, he would still be at the club and would have had the full support of the board.

When it comes to your point about youngsters and not buying players which weren't nailed down, again, Morris said that Clement suggested that he needed the players he bought for him to get back to the strategy. I would call that a supportive owner, wouldn't you?

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Listening to Mel Morris' interview... What the actual fuck? Bizarre interview, completely and utterly bizarre.

 

[MagpieBee]

I think there are some good points from Derby fans here, but to be honest I think Morris seems to be pulling your collective legs.

For a start on the tactics, it's quite difficult to instill a possession based game that also is quick. We had a season or two of quite poor football while we were getting it right. Even when we did get it right last season our defending was pretty terrible. You guys were at least also being pretty successful with the style you were playing. Every team experiences some runs of bad form, regardless of who you are and how good your manager is. I'm pretty sure Clement would have had you there or there abouts come the end of the season.

Players value always decreases the better and bigger your squad gets. You rely less on the options you had and the burden gets shared around. You only have to look at Judge last year, we had more attacking options so he had fewer chances to score and get forward, and he looked a much less important player.

I don't buy that you guys are within FFP at all. I don't buy that he's been sacked because he doesn't fit the "Derby Way", whatever that is. I don't buy that you aren't looking for promotion this season. These sound just like the excuses and misdirections thrown about by an owner who's made a panic decision and needs to come up with reasons for it after the act.

 

[Super_horns]

Derby say its all about the style and progression of players rather than instant results so presume the next manager will expect time to build a team and style of play rather than being judged on results?

What if that new man comes in and they lose even more ground on the top 2 and slip out of play-off contention...