England v Belgium, 28th June, 7pm(GMT)

[Steve_Wafc]

Shut up you idiot. Look at their line up from that night and realise you're talking turnip.

Yes, you’re excellent at football debates.
Oh I have, that’s why I said average. De Bruyne hadn’t hit the standards he has now, Lukaku was the Lukaku that turns up in big games and as I’ve already said Hazard underperformed. It’s well documented there were problems in that camp, they weren’t a team and they didn’t play like one.

 

[Bilo]

That was genuinely horrible. And quite provoking.

What, all this to avoid Brazil in the quarters? Should they get there? Should you? Fucking hell, play to win or don't play at all. What, your fans didn't pay £500 a night to stay in Leningrad? The tickets were sliced were they? Were they fuck. That was fucking abysmal and you've given the motivational speech already to the (hopefully only) opposition you've got left to play this tournament.

Sorry, no, I watched that and there wasn't a world cup winner in there. It was two small minded teams with second rate managers so confident of beating Colombia yet shit scared to face Brazil. Well, if you're lucky you'll face us and we've knocked out Netherlands, Italy and Germany en route.

So what I'm asking myself is, is Colombia then Sweden (fingers crossed!) such a significantly more easy route than Japan and Brazil? Maybe slightly, but not enough to let go of momentum, let your fans down completely who still travelled those sixhundredandtwentyfivethousand miles and just confirmed what everyone already knows:

You know, deep inside, you're not good enough.

Fucking hell I hope Colombia slaughter you for that. God knows they'll be motivated.

 

[Bilo]

Another shitty thing about it is that you lot under Southgate were quite likable but it's so obvious it's a group mentality installed by Southgate that reaching the semis would be quite an achievement. So let's aim for that. Rather lose to Spain there than Brazil in the quarters! But all he's told them, and make no mistake that he has, is that he doesn't think this group of players can beat Brazil.

What a message to bring into the knockouts.

 

[Steve_Wafc]

I don’t quite understand all this “we did that to avoid Brazil” talk. If we’d scored, we’d have topped the group. We didn’t just camp in our own half the whole half haha, we nearly scored twice but for goal saving interventions. Yes we played poorly, it was a poor nothing game, but we both played second string sides, finding that rhythm is not easy.

 

[Bilo]

I don’t quite understand all this “we did that to avoid Brazil” talk

Mate you put Welbeck on, leaving Kane on the bench. You're having a laugh. Belgium did everything short of putting it in the net for you. The last 30 minutes they actually put no pressure on the ball at all, last seen at the Etihad when Chelsea were trying to get Conte sacked. I'd lash into Belgium as well but I didn't like them beforehand either.

 

[Nilsson]

Another shitty thing about it is that you lot under Southgate were quite likable but it's so obvious it's a group mentality installed by Southgate that reaching the semis would be quite an achievement. So let's aim for that. Rather lose to Spain there than Brazil in the quarters! But all he's told them, and make no mistake that he has, is that he doesn't think this group of players can beat Brazil.

What a message to bring into the knockouts.

You're reading too much into it, Rashford scores that sitter then we top the group. Both managers took the opportunity to rest key players and give some game time to players who will be needed if we go further into the competition, who can blame them? A fresh squad is important and there's no point in treating a game like a must win if it isn't one.

 

[Bilo]

I'm starting to believe you two didn't actually watch the game. You threw the game in the most obvious manner possible. Yeah, Rashford scores the "sitter", except he put it twenty five feet wide, in tune with the objective.

 

[Steve_Wafc]

Mate you put Welbeck on, leaving Kane on the bench. You're having a laugh. Belgium did everything short of putting it in the net for you. The last 30 minutes they actually put no pressure on the ball at all, last seen at the Etihad when Chelsea were trying to get Conte sacked. I'd lash into Belgium as well but I didn't like them beforehand either.

I mean, we didn’t want Kane to get injured. That’s reasonable right? Southgate would get hammered for not resting him if he got injured in that nothing game. Kane is pretty much irreplaceable, we need him for the next game. So you don’t play irreplaceable players in nothing games. John Stones picked up an injury tonight, if it was Kane seen heavily strapping his calf on the sidelines, everyone would be suicidal. I also think losing Stones could be a blow too though. I’m not a Welbeck fan but he nearly scored to be fair to him, it was in but Fellaini knocked it away. We ended the game poorly I agree and resorted to long ball, but the game just fizzled into nothing in the end, it happens in these games. There’s no easy route to win the World Cup, no matter who you come up against, they all have their weapons if they turn up and play their best.

 

[Steve_Wafc]

I'm starting to believe you two didn't actually watch the game. You threw the game in the most obvious manner possible. Yeah, Rashford scores the "sitter", except he put it twenty five feet wide, in tune with the objective.

..it was saved? Unless you mean the shot he tried to bend in the corner from 25 yards and got it all wrong? We’re talking about the 1 on 1 that Courtois saved superbly, but Rashford should also have scored.

 

[Nilsson]

I'm starting to believe you two didn't actually watch the game. You threw the game in the most obvious manner possible. Yeah, Rashford scores the "sitter", except he put it twenty five feet wide, in tune with the objective.

Wait, you actually think the players lost the game on purpose? Rashford isn't going to miss on purpose and miss the opportunity of scoring a World Cup goal.

Southgate didn't tell them to lose, he'd want the players to play well and win to keep the positivity going. We've not won a knock out game since 2006, I highly doubt he's looking past the next round. Brazil aren't even guaranteed to beat Mexico.

 

[SALTIRE]

Can't do this, Salty. It's an European team against a South American team. It's clear which team I want to win this one.

Poor form Dirk, especially when its an old enemy. Tut tut.

 

[Super_horns]

A good performance against Colombia will we needed - they are a strong technical and physical side.

With some players probably ready to prove a point too!

But key players will be back and hopefully we can provide Kane with enough chances.

Then a good looking quarter final potentially.

But its England so something is bound to go wrong!

 

[Bilo]

I mean, we didn’t want Kane to get injured. That’s reasonable right? Southgate would get hammered for not resting him if he got injured in that nothing game. Kane is pretty much irreplaceable, we need him for the next game. So you don’t play irreplaceable players in nothing games. John Stones picked up an injury tonight, if it was Kane seen heavily strapping his calf on the sidelines, everyone would be suicidal. I also think losing Stones could be a blow too though. I’m not a Welbeck fan but he nearly scored to be fair to him, it was in but Fellaini knocked it away. We ended the game poorly I agree and resorted to long ball, but the game just fizzled into nothing in the end, it happens in these games. There’s no easy route to win the World Cup, no matter who you come up against, they all have their weapons if they turn up and play their best.

..it was saved? Unless you mean the shot he tried to bend in the corner from 25 yards and got it all wrong? We’re talking about the 1 on 1 that Courtois saved superbly, but Rashford should also have scored.

Wait, you actually think the players lost the game on purpose? Rashford isn't going to miss on purpose and miss the opportunity of scoring a World Cup goal.

Southgate didn't tell them to lose, he'd want the players to play well and win to keep the positivity going. We've not won a knock out game since 2006, I highly doubt he's looking past the next round. Brazil aren't even guaranteed to beat Mexico.

I give up.

Right, you tried your best, proud of the lads etc.

It was genuinely farcical. And this was the outcome I was hoping for, you lot on our side. But those fans paid a month worth of wages to watch you throw the match (no, you don't rest EIGHT starters in a game you care to win). And even then, what Belgium did in those last 30 minutes was farcical in itself! It was the downright opposite of defending, they at times stood completely still just watching you, hoping someone would put a decent through ball in. I sometimes refer to my shit local side for reference; and put that Belgium side up against them for 30 minutes, I swear to god they'll score. It's a very simple task, what when Belgium so obviously want to concede.

It's like you either A) have never seen teams try to win a football match or B) have never seen teams try not to.

Belgium wanted to finish second (there's no other way to explain their defending, or at least not one I can think of. They didn't try) and they failed. Yet somehow you're telling yourself you tried to win. Fuck me, start a crowdfund for the fans sorry enough to travel imo.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Why are you getting so worked up about this match, Bilo?

Most managers will take the chance to rest key players should the opportunity arise. I can appreciate momentum can be a great positive but if, say, Man City fielded a weaker team in the League Cup, I find it difficult to imagine that anyone would be wailing about them losing momentum for a Champions League encounter with Barcelona in the days to come. Presumably, both Martinez and Southgate feel that affording key players a few extra days rest was more valuable. I don't think either side actively wanted to lose (why would they? These guys are presumably looking to stake a claim for a first team place).

I am disappointed in the performance and I'm personally not sure that making wholesale changes was a great idea. Our concentration should have been on winning and topping the group - Japan represent an easier challenge than Colombia and I'm not sure that one side of the draw is notably easier than the other. I think this is probably on the players as much as the manager though. That England XI should have been good enough to get a result against that Belgium XI. Hardly anyone did themselves any favours in terms of selection, and we'll probably go out against Colombia now but, meh, doesn't matter really does it? You've just got to beat who you come up against.

 

[Bilo]

Why are you getting so worked up about this match, Bilo?

Because there were 30 000 English fans singing their lungs out, spending (roughly) £1500 each just to be there. That's pretty much it. And you don't throw a World cup game, you just don't.

There's just so much wrong with it. It's disrespectful towards the players who have to play (but, you know, don't get injured, don't try too hard, if they don't press pass it sideways anyway ...), the teams you're hoping to face, the fans, and to the group of players as a whole. You saw your chance to maybe, maybe fluke your way to a semi without beating a big side and you bit the hand off.

 

[Nilsson]

I give up.

Right, you tried your best, proud of the lads etc.

It was genuinely farcical. And this was the outcome I was hoping for, you lot on our side. But those fans paid a month worth of wages to watch you throw the match (no, you don't rest EIGHT starters in a game you care to win). And even then, what Belgium did in those last 30 minutes was farcical in itself! It was the downright opposite of defending, they at times stood completely still just watching you, hoping someone would put a decent through ball in. I sometimes refer to my shit local side for reference; and put that Belgium side up against them for 30 minutes, I swear to god they'll score. It's a very simple task, what when Belgium so obviously want to concede.

It's like you either A) have never seen teams try to win a football match or B) have never seen teams try not to.

Belgium wanted to finish second (there's no other way to explain their defending, or at least not one I can think of. They didn't try) and they failed. Yet somehow you're telling yourself you tried to win. Fuck me, start a crowdfund for the fans sorry enough to travel imo.

You're talking absolute bullshit. Martinez brought Kompany on with 20 minutes to go. A model professional and one of the best defenders in the world. You think it was Kompany's aim to let the opposition score?

Belgium's second string was better than ours, both managers didn't see the need in risking their key players in a game which didn't mean an awful lot. I'm sure if Southgate could choose between Colombia or Japan in the next round he'd pick Japan, but he didn't see the need in throwing everything he had and bringing his best players on in a game that wasn't a must win.

Did you see the Belgium celebration when Januzaj scored. Are they acting here?

 

[Bilo]

You're talking absolute bullshit. Martinez brought Kompany on with 20 minutes to go. A model professional and one of the best defenders in the world. You think it was Kompany's aim to let the opposition score?

Belgium's second string was better than ours, both managers didn't see the need in risking their key players in a game which didn't mean an awful lot. I'm sure if Southgate could choose between Colombia or Japan in the next round he'd pick Japan, but he didn't see the need in throwing everything he had and bringing his best players on in a game that wasn't a must win.

Did you see the Belgium celebration when Januzaj scored. Are they acting here?

No they're probably chuffed for Januzaj! Plus they were probably confident that you'd claw one back if they didn't try to stop you.

How wrong they were eh!

Anyway, obviously we watched different games you and I (... and everyone outside England) and we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Liam_SWFC]

That was to be expected really, 8 changes is a lot and generally creates disjointed performances, with Belgium doing the same it was effectively a glorified friendly game. I'd rather we won the game and it's a shame we didn't take one of the chances second half as I would fancy us against Japan, Colombia is going to be very difficult especially with the support they have out there. Think people are overreacting, at the end of the day we are through the group and have a winnable but tough last 16 tie, I won't be looking any further ahead than that.

 

[Bobbin']

Why are people getting so worked up about this?

We lost a reserve game to a great finish.

Our first 11 beat Colombia.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Because there were 30 000 English fans singing their lungs out, spending (roughly) £1500 each just to be there. That's pretty much it. And you don't throw a World cup game, you just don't.

There's just so much wrong with it. It's disrespectful towards the players who have to play (but, you know, don't get injured, don't try too hard, if they don't press pass it sideways anyway ...), the teams you're hoping to face, the fans, and to the group of players as a whole. You saw your chance to maybe, maybe fluke your way to a semi without beating a big side and you bit the hand off.

But the game wasn't "thrown", it was simply a dead rubber that neither side had to win.

As for the second para, the reality of the situation is that Martinez or Southgate aren't there to afford the fans a lovely experience. They're there to do what they think is in the best interests of their respective sides. I would actually err towards your line of thinking in terms of whether they got that right or not, but I can understand the rationale for playing second strings. If Liverpool were playing a dead rubber in the final fixture of the Champs League group stages would you be so vociferous in your criticism?

 

[SALTIRE]

Why are people getting so worked up about this?

We lost a reserve game to a great finish.

Our first 11 beat Colombia.

Sure they do!

 

[Nilsson]

No they're probably chuffed for Januzaj! Plus they were probably confident that you'd claw one back if they didn't try to stop you.

How wrong they were eh!

Anyway, obviously we watched different games you and I (... and everyone outside England) and we just have to agree to disagree.

We watched the same game, you just saw things that weren't there and have made up some weird conspiracy that we were trying to avoid Brazil in the quarters, despite now having a tougher tie in the next round. Welbeck's shot from the corner was going in before Kompany cleared it ffs. Shit games happen at a World Cup, especially in final group games with the group already decided.

 

[Bobbin']

Sure they do!

They absolutely do. Feel free to quote the fuck out of this if they don’t.

Which I’m sure you will as you have literally nothing else to do with your summer.

 

[Steve_Wafc]

Bilo, I respect your opinion, but it’s so hard to debate this with you when you just keep ignoring the facts we put in front of you. If England wanted to throw this game, why did we even attack when 1-0 down? Why did Rashford and Welbeck (especially Welbeck because he didn’t need to) shoot at goal and subsequently denied goals by interventions? The second string just didn’t find any rhythm and didn’t play well, simple as that. If we wanted to make throwing the game easier for us, Cahill wouldn’t have reacted quickly to sweep the ball from going over the line, he’d let it roll. Talk of us throwing the game is just bizarre and doesn’t hold water.

 

[SALTIRE]

They absolutely do. Feel free to quote the fuck out of this if they don’t.

Which I’m sure you will as you have literally nothing else to do with your summer.

Who's the salty one here?

 

[Bobbin']

My nation are in a last 16 match of a World Cup which I feel confident they will win.

Why does that make me salty?

 

[Pagnell]

I agree with Bilo about the disrespect aspect of things towards the fans etc. But to claim either team were actively and deliberately attempting to finish in 2nd spot is farcical. There is a marked difference between an unprofessional lack of concern and effort and deliberately attempting to throw a game.

 

[Bilo]

Bilo, I respect your opinion, but it’s so hard to debate this with you when you just keep ignoring the facts we put in front of you. If England wanted to throw this game, why did we even attack when 1-0 down?

You didn't. Belgium's defending was so poor that I believe 100% that you would have scored if you really, really tried. Such as putting your best goalscorer on the pitch, for example.

Why did Rashford and Welbeck (especially Welbeck because he didn’t need to) shoot at goal and subsequently denied goals by interventions?

I concede that saying "throw the game" was over the top, but those 11 players absolutely did not try their best. And I'm struggling to imagine how you can think that they did.

The second string just didn’t find any rhythm and didn’t play well, simple as that. If we wanted to make throwing the game easier for us, Cahill wouldn’t have reacted quickly to sweep the ball from going over the line, he’d let it roll. Talk of us throwing the game is just bizarre and doesn’t hold water.

They didn't find any rhythm and didn't play well against 11 players that didn't press them at all for very large periods in the end. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Did you watch Uruguay vs Russia? Uruguay tried to win, despite not having to do so. And there's a world and half between that and this.

I agree with Bilo about the disrespect aspect of things towards the fans etc. But to claim either team were actively and deliberately attempting to finish in 2nd spot is farcical. There is a marked difference between an unprofessional lack of concern and effort and deliberately attempting to throw a game.

I retract the "throw the game" statement, it was over the top.

 

[SALTIRE]

My nation are in a last 16 match of a World Cup which I feel confident they will win.

Why does that make me salty?

Your tetchy response. You know the fuck up isn't far away now!

 

[Bobbin']

Your tetchy response. You know the fuck up isn't far away now!

It may well be but who cares? I’ve made a prediction which may well be wrong and the worst that can happen is that some strangers on the internet can laugh that I got it wrong.

England will win though. I will have a £10 charity bet with you.