European Union Referendum

[smat]

As a leave voter, I feel the citizen rights issue and the final bill can be agreed on but the UK seems to be bending more than the EU (the EU's line seems to be "you need to try harder" without actually wanting to compromise at all - in the end an outcome would be achieved as far as I can see).

I think if the UK's repeated capitulations show anything it's that the stuff about the German car industry was total jobbies. We have far more to lose than the EU and it's been exposed during this debacle.

 

[Indian Dan]

I bet the Labour Party are glad they lost the GE and didn’t have to sort this mess out.

Being a cynical old git, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is another GE shortly so they have to.

Also, as a leaver, this is becoming more trouble than its worth. The only sensible solution now is to remain in the CU and Single Market to solve the Irish problem - but there’s no way the EU would sanction that. The very essence of cherry picking.

 

[PuB]

There's no way the Tory party would accept that either. Nor, a lot of the right leaning media outlets.

 

[Laker]

I think if the UK's repeated capitulations show anything it's that the stuff about the German car industry was total jobbies. We have far more to lose than the EU and it's been exposed during this debacle.

That's all subjective really and misses the point of that paragraph from my post - we will/can reach an outcome on those points, my bet is somewhere in the middle of each side's ideal. Likewise with trade on the whole.

However the Ireland border issue is being hindered by a party pushing a position to suit one side's needs rather than a "best for all" solution. And until the DUP is out of the government (either with a Tory minority government or another general election) then I don't see how that will change as their view is so entrenched, it's fundamental to the DUP's existence. It's a massive conflict of interest which is holding this thing back.

 

[Abertawe]

That's all subjective really and misses the point of that paragraph from my post - we will/can reach an outcome on those points, my bet is somewhere in the middle of each side's ideal. Likewise with trade on the whole.

However the Ireland border issue is being hindered by a party pushing a position to suit one side's needs rather than a "best for all" solution. And until the DUP is out of the government (either with a Tory minority government or another general election) then I don't see how that will change as their view is so entrenched, it's fundamental to the DUP's existence. It's a massive conflict of interest which is holding this thing back.

the EU don't have to meet us in the middle. we were the ones to leave. - it's no secret that they are absolutely uncompromising when it comes to negotiations as their USP to member states requires it to be so - the reason we had a referendum was because they wouldn't negotiate let's not forget. for that and to which smat highlighted the hard-line posturing from our serving government was always going to fail. we should just pay to have membership on the condition we don't have free movement from the crap countries. that's an achievable and sensible goal IMO.

 

[PuB]

Absolutely, it's been so cringey watching Downing Street try to pull every negotiating tactic in the book, the EU do not have to give us an inch. We are literally bent over a barrel with the two options being 1) what the EU want, or 2) crashing out with a no deal.

 

[smat]

That's all subjective really and misses the point of that paragraph from my post - we will/can reach an outcome on those points, my bet is somewhere in the middle of each side's ideal. Likewise with trade on the whole.

However the Ireland border issue is being hindered by a party pushing a position to suit one side's needs rather than a "best for all" solution. And until the DUP is out of the government (either with a Tory minority government or another general election) then I don't see how that will change as their view is so entrenched, it's fundamental to the DUP's existence. It's a massive conflict of interest which is holding this thing back.

I wasn't really taking umbrage with anything you had said, it was just something that occurred to me really. I think as the realities start to reveal themselves it's going to be important for the public to remember what they were told by Leavers (Remain bullshitted too, but they lost so that's academic).

I don't even think it is that subjective. Which side is making concessions and which is standing its ground? That's as clear an indicator as we can get as to who has the most to lose. I can't remember where I saw this but I think the consequences of a no deal Brexit are about 4.5% of GDP for the UK, and on average about 0.35% for EU27 (might not be correct figures but in that ballpark). They don't want it to happen but they can absorb it. We have far more to lose than Germany.

It's a shame Captain Scumbag and Alty saw fit to Brexit themselves into global irrelevance but I think their own (and Ebeneezer Goode's relative) silence speaks volumes about how it's going. It reminds me of how you can usually tell how well Liverpool are doing by how often Bilo is posting (no offence Bilo).

Edit: additionally, to be fair to the DUP, I don't think they are standing in the way of a 'best for all' solution, simply because there isn't one. Well, staying in the EU is probably best, but the chances of that being on the table are vanishingly small.

 

[Bilo]

fuck you smat

 

[.V.]

Only one man can save us from this disaster.

 

[silkyman]

A key question for me is what exactly is Davis lying about.

He has spent months telling us all that the impact assessments exist, that they are in 'excruciating detail', that the PM has seen the summaries, that they are so in depth and comprehensive that the very thought of the EU seeing them would demolish our position.

And now, suddenly. Nothing. They are nothing. They have never been anything. We have done absolutely no research on what happens after brexit and we're jumping off the cliff anyway.

So he's lying. That much is certain.

But about what?

Did he spend month lying about the existence of the impact assessments, or is he lying now?

Has he decided that showing the public just how fucked we all are if this goes through is somehow more damaging than showing himself up to be potentially in contempt of parliament?

How bad WERE they?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It's a shame Captain Scumbag and Alty saw fit to Brexit themselves into global irrelevance but I think their own (and Ebeneezer Goode's relative) silence speaks volumes about how it's going.

I don't think Captain Scumbag and Alty post on the forum at all any more since the politics section became so toxic. In general I don't think there's been much Brexit talk at all because it's all so tedious. We don't know what the deal will be and following the Tories' ineptitude is just depressing. I think more should probably be made of Cameron's cowardice though. He saw the job ahead of him and abandoned the country when it actually probably needed him.

 

[smat]

I don't think Captain Scumbag and Alty post on the forum at all any more since the politics section became so toxic. In general I don't think there's been much Brexit talk at all because it's all so tedious. We don't know what the deal will be and following the Tories' ineptitude is just depressing. I think more should probably be made of Cameron's cowardice though. He saw the job ahead of him and abandoned the country when it actually probably needed him.

Yes. The politics section is too toxic now, after 15 years of being not toxic and completely fine, at the exact same moment in history that they both had to defend Brexit. I definitely believe that.

In agreement about Cameron though, it's absolutely scandalous how he's got off the hook. Fucking teflon wanker.

 

[smat]

This morning's agreement states that if we can't find ‘specific solutions’ to Irish border problems, we ‘will maintain full alignment’ with rules of the Customs Union and Single Market. So it's basically a soft Brexit.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The worst of both worlds.

Time for Farage to re-enter the fray.

 

[Abertawe]

frustrating we're being fed tidbits - freedom of movement for example?

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Can't disagree re Cameron.

From what I've had a chance to read so far, it feels to me as if the can has just been kicked down the road regarding some of the biggest issues. We won't really know the situation with the island of Ireland or customs/movement of people etc for a while yet. That goes somewhat against the EU's rhetoric this whole time that everything else needs to be settled before we can talk trade. Instead with got all this stuff the major details of which will depend on what is agreed regarding trade, and so will continue being political footballs.

The British government is seeking a trade deal with the bloc that makes any sort of hard border with Ireland unnecessary, the text says.

Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland

In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support north-south cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 agreement ...

The United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 agreement, the Northern Ireland executive and assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland.

“In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.”

Nice to have a simple no fuss agreement on the rights of EU citizens in the UK and UK folks in the EU. There's been so much gnashing of teeth over nothing on that front.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

frustrating we're being fed tidbits - freedom of movement for example?

If it's in line with the single market then that means open borders to the entire EU again.

 

[Abertawe]

If it's in line with the single market then that means open borders to the entire EU again.

not even this shambles of a government would pay to retain the worst disadvantages of the EU - surely. I was always in favour of paying for access to the customs union & single market on the proviso they tweaked freedom of movement. if they've submitted on that then surely there will be an election as half the cabinet said that wasn't an option.

 

[Super_horns]

Well at least they've agreed something.

Thought nothing would happen.

Everyone can now move onto the next issue (Trade)​

 

[Laker]

Quite like the two Brexiteer debaters being hammered for not being here still, as if this forum is the necessity of life.

Most of the time I don't reply, clearly not because I just don't have the time but because we're "losing". That's it. Totally.

Also my original reason for registering here was, funnily enough, to post about football occasionally. I only really post on here to provide some balance to the super Remain community we have here. In "real life" I'm not half as passionate about any of this stuff.

 

[TheMinsterman]

In what way is the politics forum "toxic" now? All that has actually been done to it is banning obvious trolls who aren't trying engage honestly, nobody else has their views censored.

 

[TheMinsterman]

I know you deleted your reply EG, but seriously, where people think other members are just using ad homs and distracting from the topics please do feel free to report it or PM me, some weeks I am just busy and haven't necessarily seen it, prompting me means I am more likely to do so.

I want the politics forum to be active and with different views, whether I agree with them isn't really relevant.

 

[smat]

Quite like the two Brexiteer debaters being hammered for not being here still, as if this forum is the necessity of life.

Most of the time I don't reply, clearly not because I just don't have the time but because we're "losing". That's it. Totally.

Also my original reason for registering here was, funnily enough, to post about football occasionally. I only really post on here to provide some balance to the super Remain community we have here. In "real life" I'm not half as passionate about any of this stuff.

It's quite decent of you to defend them. I'm sure they'd be capable of sticking up for themselves, had they not run away like so many Davis Camerons.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

The worst of both worlds.

Time for Farage to re-enter the fray.

Ahahahaha. Imagine having the fucking audacity to complain about this place becoming too toxic (snowflake) only to pine after Nigel fucking Farage. Please tell me you're a parody account.

 

[Laker]

It's quite decent of you to defend them. I'm sure they'd be capable of sticking up for themselves, had they not run away like so many Davis Camerons.

I don't know them at all but if that's the depth of the witty response they would have had to deal with then I don't blame them.

 

[PuB]

I don't know them at all but if that's the depth of the witty response they would have had to deal with then I don't blame them.

Such a toxic response to reply to.

I demand my account be blocked and removed

 

[claret50]

Time for Farage to re-enter the fray.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Ahahahaha. Imagine having the fucking audacity to complain about this place becoming too toxic (snowflake) only to pine after Nigel fucking Farage. Please tell me you're a parody account.

I don't think snowflake means what you think it means, and I didn't complain, I simply explained why certain people couldn't be arsed with this place any more. What Farage has to do with it I'm not sure, he's one of the more frank and likeable characters in British politics.

 

[Techno Natch]

Farage utterly played the British public and he does very well at playing the ale drinking socialite that is just like me and you. Of course he is total c*** that given half a chance would run a Nintendo competition and cream the profit off the top. The reality is that he's happy to cash in his EU pension and claim a bit of money for his shite radio show. He's played it well.

 

[Abertawe]

the light hasn't shone on this figure of hate nigel farage yet. what are people seeing that I am not - Cornish pixie called for him to be hanged which I thought is a bit out of proportion. do people imagine this narrative or I'd there something horrendous I've omitted from my thought process?