European Union Referendum

[Abertawe]

Davis has literally had about four meetings with anyone from the EU since he was appointed - he's a known joke.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

I'm internally raging about this complete shitshow but hopefully this'll be a reasonably measured post.

It’s frustrating as I feel the plan unveiled on Friday (whatever they may be) must be too “in” and therefore I get the impression we are just getting Brexit in name only, which then makes the whole bloody thing pointless. Either you do it properly or you don’t do it at all. A half and half version is the worst of both worlds - abide by the rules but write none of them.

It’s a big time bottle job from Remainer May, she got cold feet and blinked first. Davis was doing well in the brinkmanship stakes, held his nerve well under heavy pressure and I was confident with him at the helm. Not now.

Boris can do one frankly, he’s only resigned as he sees a leadership opportunity. Knob.

In a perverse way I agree with this view, albeit from the opposite side of the fence. One of my main contentions before the referendum, and why I couldn't really fathom the enthusiasm for Leave, was that "the best deal" was what we already had. Beyond that, the least destructive path to pursue for the UK was one which involved continued membership of the currency union and single market, but that would also involve ceding "control", while losing the influence we had as a member, an outcome that always seemed a little unsatisfactory for both Leave and Remain camps. But the fact that the best option was transparently an inferior version of what we had previously hasn't stopped the current government, and the Leave campaign before it, spending a lot of time promoting the idea that we'll be able to get a tremendous bespoke deal, in which we'll be in a position to effectively cherry pick - keep the stuff we like, discard the bits we don't. Even now, this fantasy is being indulged in the proposal for a single market for goods but not services, something the EU surely can't accede to. I think that Leavers are trying to convince themselves that it's JUST the execution that's lacking and don't want to countenance what I believe to be the reality of the situation - that Brexit is a fundamentally flawed project.

For May, the problems run deep. Both her party and the public at large are utterly divided on the issue so there are no good solutions, just solutions that will disappoint and anger different tribes to varying degrees, hence why the government have spent so long stalling. If a "bottle job" is trying to somewhat mitigate the damage rather than jumping head first off a cliff, then yeah, she's completely bottled it, I suppose. I'm not sure what your idea of "doing Brexit properly" might entail, but at this stage it's presumably leaving without a deal. But I sense there's very little appetite for this, both within parliament and the electorate as a whole (check a whole raft of opinion polls on the matter if you're in any doubt on this). My suspicion is that no one much wants it because they know how destructive it will be. Those that do are generally the sort of characters who harbour hard right dreams of turning the UK into a low cost, low regulation, low tax off-shore haven. I find it terrifying that people seem to want Brexit at any cost, but doing so without entertaining the consequences and examining the motives of those pushing such a scenario is even more irresponsible.

Can definitely get on board with the idea that Johnson is an insufferable c*** tho. Might be one of the few things that unites this incredibly silly little nation.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

I'd add that a bigger problem is that nobody has shown why Brexit will be beneficial to the UK. There's a lot of soundbites about "taking back control and getting a deal that's right for us", but I'm still yet to see any real reputable source suggesting how this will be right for us. I'm a fervent remainer purely because I haven't seen anything/ heard any argument that has come anywhere close to making me think about Brexit from a different standpoint.

I question why Laker has confidence in Davis, because to me it seems that we've got utterly dreadful politicians in charge of the Conservative party. I don't think it's much of a secret that I'm left leaning, but going beyond tribal politics of which I've never been much of a fan, it seems that there's a lot of insufferable incompetent c*** heading up the Conservative party who can offer little more than "why is Brexit good?" "no u, London cyclists" type response. At least people like Thatcher have a vision, an execution and whether or not you agree with her, there's a strong argument to be made that she was a success. This lot, it just seems ridiculous the group we have in charge now.

Not that I'm making a "let's have a general election now and get Labour to sort it out", because quite frankly the incompetence at the top isn't just with the Tories. There's really a lack of people in politics right now where you look at them and think, "you're clued up, I may disagree with you but I have faith that you won't be a total fuck up".

Can we bin First Past the Post yet?

 

[silkyman]

Problem is that Labour’s proposed Brexit plan is every bit as unworkable as the Tories. It’s just that the unicorns are red instead of blue.

It’s not a negotiation at this stage. It’s a set menu and we’re trying to at best get the fillet mignon for the price of the bread rolls, and at worst, trying to do that in a McDonalds.

Meanwhile the government is really showing them who’s boss. Give us exactly the deal we want or we’ll have our population living off spam for the next two years.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/67472...processed-food/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

This is where we are now. Businesses are leaving, taking jobs with them, we can’t staff the NHS because we don’t have the people, we’re going to gridlock the south east with trucks full of rotting produce and rip up the Good Friday Agreement, while the people in the background make billions on the markets by betting on the crash, and the politicians chant ‘The Will Of The People’ like they are in Hot Fuzz.

How about we just stop. Let everything calm down, and have another look at everything in a few years.

The brexiters won the referendum (albeit by lying and breaking the law) but they’ve broken their new toy before they even got it out of the box. If the guys who have been campaigning for this for years can’t make it work, perhaps it’s unworkable.

 

[Habbinalan]

The EU is betting that Brexit will make a trade deal with India a little easier.

Chief negotiators from the EU and India will meet in Brussels on Thursday in an attempt to revive talks that stalled five years ago.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-eu-hopes-for-india-trade-deal-talks/



The UK would not release its report on a trade agreement with India. So journalists asked India, which happily released it. Turns out India wants relaxed "rules on food standards and chemical safety" - incompatible with EU trade

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/07/12/brexit-uk-india-trade-review-out-of-reach/

 

[Benji]

Everyone is quitting or broke the law.

 

[Laker]

Get the impression May will push any form of Brexit that she can get through Parliament, we’ve ended up here by chance not by her or her cabinet’s design.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Once again the so-called Tory Remainers bottle a key vote. The Conservatives are an utterly deplorable entity and I so resent what they're doing to the nation right now. Very sad that there are only about a dozen of them with the guts to put country before party.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Also hope Labour deselect Hoey, Field, Mann, Stringer as soon as possible (and sex pest Hopkins - currently suspended - too if he counts).

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Can't we just bin off Brexit and FPTP? Thank fuck I have dual nationality and can fuck off for a while if the shit really hits the fan. I should probably start learning German.

 

[Dirk]

Can't we just bin off Brexit and FPTP? Thank fuck I have dual nationality and can fuck off for a while if the shit really hits the fan. I should probably start learning German.

The sooner the better, LOTAL.

My philological studies have satisfied me that a gifted person ought to learn English (barring spelling and pronouncing) in thirty hours, French in thirty days, and German in thirty years.

It seems manifest, then, that the latter tongue ought to be trimmed down and repaired. If it is to remain as it is, it ought to be gently and reverently set aside among the dead languages, for only the dead have time to learn it.

- "That Awful German Language," Appendix D of A Tramp Abroad by Mark Twain, 1880
"The Awful German Language" by Mark Twain


Sorry, for this "interruption", back to topic.

 

[Red]

Also hope Labour deselect Hoey, Field, Mann, Stringer as soon as possible (and sex pest Hopkins - currently suspended - too if he counts).

Mann and Hoey are in the wrong party.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Can't we just bin off Brexit and FPTP? Thank fuck I have dual nationality and can fuck off for a while if the shit really hits the fan. I should probably start learning German.

The more representative the system the more likely Brexit would be, surely.

 

[Laker]

Can't we just bin off Brexit and FPTP? Thank fuck I have dual nationality and can fuck off for a while if the shit really hits the fan. I should probably start learning German.

I kind of sympathise with the binning off Brexit notion, if it is this sort of Brexit we are going for.

In my mind the three outcomes were:
a) stay in
b) be part in (ie abide by some/all rules but don’t make them)
c) be fully out

I voted for c) but if that isn’t possible then b) generally isn’t desirable and I’d prefer us to revert to a).

Oh for a leader/party with some clout to have made this work. She may have been a bitch to anyone who opposed her but Thatcher would not have fucked this up or fudged it through like this.

 

[.V.]

I kind of sympathise with the binning off Brexit notion, if it is this sort of Brexit we are going for.

In my mind the three outcomes were:
a) stay in
b) be part in (ie abide by some/all rules but don’t make them)
c) be fully out

I voted for c) but if that isn’t possible then b) generally isn’t desirable and I’d prefer us to revert to a).

Oh for a leader/party with some clout to have made this work. She may have been a bitch to anyone who opposed her but Thatcher would not have fucked this up or fudged it through like this.

Given that she helped to create the single market...

 

[PuB]

Yeah thatcher would have been a remainer, given that it makes total economic sense.

Extremely odd there are Tories who actively gasping for a no deal Brexit. Just watch the economy collapse if that happens (which is looking increasingly likely).

 

[Laker]

Given that she helped to create the single market...

I wasn’t really referring to her political beliefs (that’s far too controversial and worthy of a 100 page thread in itself!), more her ability to actually make things happen rather than presenting a new form of deal seemingly daily just to get something accepted as we’re seeing at present.

 

[Fompous Part]

Given that she helped to create the single market...

She regretted that when she began to see the medium-to-long term political consequences of those reforms. She was an arch EU-sceptic towards the end, which is one reason (arguably the reason) why she was pushed out before the Maastricht Treaty was produced.

If there was some way to recreate Margaret Thatcher from 1988, then go back in time and re-run the 2016 Conservative Party leadership non-contest (basically choosing 1988 Thatcher as the ‘anyone but fucking Boris’ candidate instead of 2016 May), we’d be in a much better position than we are now.

Pretty big ‘if’, I know, but Laker is right.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Yeah thatcher would have been a remainer, given that it makes total economic sense.

Extremely odd there are Tories who actively gasping for a no deal Brexit. Just watch the economy collapse if that happens (which is looking increasingly likely).

It's only odd if you imagine that they ever believed their own rhetoric. No-deal Brexit would never have caused economic collapse, as they have always known.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Pretty decent watching imo. Regardless of your positionality, compare Major (ffs) to the current leaders/ frontbenchers etc. we have within both the Labour and Conservative parties.

The representative the system the more likely Brexit would be, surely.

Tbf even if it did I am still very pro PR.

 

[wiganmudhuts29]

leave 100% less immigrants=less terrorists we have enough home grown ones who are given a platform by liberals/lefties good job and on this forum its full of left wing students so i think i know which way this vote goes..they did a vote on twitter and it was 55% leave,

 

[Renegade]

Pretty decent watching imo. Regardless of your positionality, compare Major (ffs) to the current leaders/ frontbenchers etc. we have within both the Labour and Conservative parties.



Tbf even if it did I am still very pro PR.

PR would have given UKIP an 11% share of the seats in the Commons half a decade ago. Change your mind?

Coalition governments would become the default in PR, so it's a case of having more representatives from smaller parties in a position of power (good) vs the government not being able to enact a clear plan for the country because of disparate interests in power (bad). Kind of a pick your poison scenario for me, I don't think PR would really solve anything, though I'm not averse to trying it out.

 

[Renegade]

Definitely jt.

 

[wiganmudhuts29]

why we all ignoring the 83% Muslim grooming gangs ? does that not matter ?
did you all forget about the Muslim terrorist attacks,that's right MUSLIM,
do none of you have a decent honest bone in your bodies ? the day that cancer stops spreading Islam the world will be a better place!
why are we not aloud to criticize Islam ?
why are Muslims protected ?
why are right wing facts being shut out ?
why do we have muslims who are linked with terrorism living around us and just being watched ?

anybody ?

quick get your racist card out!!!!!!!

 

[shane]

why we all ignoring the 83% Muslim grooming gangs ? does that not matter ?
did you all forget about the Muslim terrorist attacks,that's right MUSLIM,
do none of you have a decent honest bone in your bodies ? the day that cancer stops spreading Islam the world will be a better place!
why are we not aloud to criticize Islam ?
why are Muslims protected ?
why are right wing facts being shut out ?
why do we have muslims who are linked with terrorism living around us and just being watched ?

anybody ?

quick get your racist card out!!!!!!!

In conclusion, Muslims out. We get it.

 

[Laker]

why we all ignoring the 83% Muslim grooming gangs ? does that not matter ?
did you all forget about the Muslim terrorist attacks,that's right MUSLIM,
do none of you have a decent honest bone in your bodies ? the day that cancer stops spreading Islam the world will be a better place!
why are we not aloud to criticize Islam ?
why are Muslims protected ?
why are right wing facts being shut out ?
why do we have muslims who are linked with terrorism living around us and just being watched ?

anybody ?

quick get your racist card out!!!!!!!

Do you blame every Muslim for terrorism? What about British-born Muslims? Let me push it one further and use your sort of language, what about 100% white Brits who have converted to Islam?

You can’t just blanket blame every person within an ethnic or racial group, that’s called xenophobia.

 

[Abertawe]

why we all ignoring the 83% Muslim grooming gangs ? does that not matter ?
did you all forget about the Muslim terrorist attacks,that's right MUSLIM,
do none of you have a decent honest bone in your bodies ? the day that cancer stops spreading Islam the world will be a better place!
why are we not aloud to criticize Islam ?
why are Muslims protected ?
why are right wing facts being shut out ?
why do we have muslims who are linked with terrorism living around us and just being watched ?

anybody ?

quick get your racist card out!!!!!!!

You bum - get a job.

 

[Red]

leave 100% less immigrants=less terrorists we have enough home grown ones who are given a platform by liberals/lefties good job and on this forum its full of left wing students so i think i know which way this vote goes..they did a vote on twitter and it was 55% leave,

We've got a gammon on the forum.

 

[Renegade]

Do you blame every Muslim for terrorism? What about British-born Muslims? Let me push it one further and use your sort of language, what about 100% white Brits who have converted to Islam?

You can’t just blanket blame every person within an ethnic or racial group, that’s called xenophobia.