European Union Referendum

[Captain Scumbag]

 

[Alty]

Latest polls suggest Brexit is slightly ahead and Obama's input actually backfired for Remain.

Commentators on the Sunday Politics were saying that Leave have basically already won the argument on immigration and Remain have won on the economy. So there won't be much fighting each other on those topics. Much of the rest of the rest of the campaign will be about trying to get the vote out on the day.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

I suspect Leave's prospects are inversely proportional to the number of undecided voters because people who aren't sure tend to err on the side of caution and opt for the status quo, even if they don't know much about it and it's actually a bit rubbish.

That's probably what swung the Scottish referendum and why the polls beforehand had everyone expecting a closer result. Think the same could happen here. It's hard to judge what sort of a lead would alleviate my fears about this, but something like 51-49 falls well short.

 

[SUTSS]

Worth noting that the telephone polls by and large have been consistently giving remain the lead and they have been more accurate in recent elections and referendums.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I expect more of the country to favour remain, the question is whether they'll be as motivated to go out and vote.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Freedom of speech and media
Right to fair trial
Fair and free democracy

All bastions of EU moral values and basic criteria for membership yes?

Nahhh, fuck that, when under pressure to do something to save public face with migration policies, all those rules must be bent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36188558

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

an unprecedented 10 point lead in the poll, my word

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Freedom of speech and media
Right to fair trial
Fair and free democracy

All bastions of EU moral values and basic criteria for membership yes?

I'm not sure any EU nation has true freedom of speech to be honest.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

no-one has absolute freedom of speech and no-one should either. absolute freedom of speech, being able to say anything u want, would include slander, hate speech, inciting terror etc.

 

[blade1889]

True freedom is a myth...we all have opinions based on biased media outlets and circumstances. #freedomisslavery

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

no-one has absolute freedom of speech and no-one should either. absolute freedom of speech, being able to say anything u want, would include slander, hate speech, inciting terror etc.

The general definition of freedom of expression is being able to express any set of opinions or ideas that you like. That could include "hate speech" or the glorification of terrorism, and it should do too, both of those things should be legal. Slander is something completely different though.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

it's speech. if u are limiting their speech u don't have absolute free speech

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

it's speech. if u are limiting their speech u don't have absolute free speech

Yeah, but "absolute free speech" is a term and concept you basically just made up. When has 'free speech' ever meant 'saying anything you like'?

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

it hasn't, cause no society has had ultimate free speech. keep up

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

So your point is that no one should have or has had the odd notion of free speech that you've just invented for no apparent reason? Okey dokey.

 

[Alty]

The point is Turkey is the kind of place where a comedian can be tried for pointing out a politician looks a bit funny. Not good.

That said, in a rare act of defence of the EU...what are the alternatives at this point? I mean, it all stems from establishment fuck-ups, but in the here and now, Turkey hold all the cards. Of course they were going to extract a pretty handy concession from the EU.

I suspect a lot of Turks will go missing in Europe in the coming years, unfortunately. There are big enough existing communities for lots of illegal immigrants to be hidden and get by for years. And then will come the Article 8 Human Rights claims from people who've lived in the EU for a number of years.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

So your point is that no one should have or has had the odd notion of free speech that you've just invented for no apparent reason? Okey dokey.

free speech is absolute free speech with no legislation limiting what one man can say (except the following that meets the arbitrary guidelines of operating system, beep boop what is a feeling)

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

free speech is absolute free speech with no legislation limiting what one man can say

It isn't though, it never has been, as you yourself have already conceded. You're not taking a purist or absolutist view on this, you're flipping the concept over and replacing it with a made-up one. The idea of protecting speech is not to literally protect the right of someone to say whatever they like, it's to protect their right to communicate whatever ideas or opinions they like. That's not an arbitrary distinction, it's what freedom of speech and freedom of expression exist for.

 

[Alty]

I'm a big fan of the BBC's The Inquiry podcast. The latest episode was on the EU, entitled What Happened To The European Dream? Well worth a listen for anyone interested in the topic who doesn't want to hear a load of shouting about immigration and the economy. Link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p029399x/episodes/downloads

Also worth a watch (though a bit longer and more Punch and Judy-esque) is this debate:

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Jean-Claude Juncker believes elected politicians across Europe shouldn't listen so much to the opinions of their national voters, should ignore them and instead focus on developing a common European sense.

Depressing.

To give Donald Tusk credit, he disagreed and argued back to Junker: “I can understand why this is a dream for some Brussels colleagues, but I think it is time to redefine our dreams for the EU as a project. “This means that today we must admit this dream of one European state with one common interest and maybe in the future one common nation was an illusion.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ten-too-much-to-voters-complains-eus-juncker/

 

[TheArtfulDodger]

The Brexiters will need be polling around 60% to actually win I think, it's far too close and I think it will be like the Scottish referendum ultimately.

I'm voting IN, I've listened to both sides and the best arguments of the out campaign just don't convince me it's not a move in the wrong direction and will ultimately lead to being led in even more of a right-wing direction. The worst of it is simply little England bigotry and seems to increasingly dominate the Brexit argument.

 

[Max]

At the weekend I participated in the recording of a series of podcasts, chaired by Robin Lustig, an ex BBC Radio 4 presenter. The format consisted of inviting a series of speakers to talk about four areas (economy and trade, rules and regulations, immigration, and identity and sovereignty). After presentations from experts (some unbiased, some with a clearly stated preference), I and nine other members of the public asked questions and had a discussion.

The theory was to try to get more information in the public domain, and have the conversation in a calm way, seeking answers to questions that politicians avoid or don't want to answer. The project is called EU The Jury, and I will post a link to the podcasts when they're ready, most likely in about a fortnight.

For what it's worth, I went into it broadly sympathetic to Remain, but think the arguments are being articulated very poorly by both sides. By the end of it I have shifted firmly to the Remain side. There are many some persuasive arguments against the EU in principle and theory, but in reality I think membership offers tangible and practical benefits.

 

[Tilbury]

http://www.theguardian.com/money/20...egative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse?CMP=fb_gu
EU migrants have not effected UK wages according to research by the LSE. They say the financial crash of 08 is to blame for the fall in real wages.

 

[mente captus]

Fun fact:

If the uk will decide to leave the eu, many of the 100k british citizens who are currently living in Germany have to leave.

I am sure we share the opinion of that the most of them are well educated.

They will do what the most of the britains fear, they will steal their jobs

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Fun fact:

If the uk will decide to leave the eu, many of the 100k british citizens who are currently living in Germany have to leave.

Is that a fact?

 

[mente captus]

Is that a fact?

As a non-EU member they cant count on the freedom of movement anymore and i suppose there is no war currently running in the UK. They will be treated like brazilians or russians

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

yeah, but no

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

why do u hate england mente? did one of us steal your missus or something?

 

[mente captus]

why do u hate england mente? did one of us steal your missus or something?

I dont hate England, i hate some kinds of behaviour but it doesnt depends on the nationality of the person/organisation.

I just wanted to show you the consequenes of an possibly Brexit.

After all i dont really care if the uk stays in or leave, but i would prefer them to leave, i mean i am sick of hearing them crying give me that and give me this. I love the idea of an united europe, but i think the brits arent very interested it.

We have a saying in Germany: Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten, lit. translated: never hold up travellers.



Oh, and no, nobody has stolen my wife

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

nah u are always whinging about england, u go into unrelated threads to post crap about us it's weird