European Union Referendum

[smat]

Speaking of business concerns, Tesco has pulled Marmite from its shelves as a result of the plummeting pound causing a price row.

Thanks Brexiters!!!

No seriously thanks, I hate Marmite.

 

[shane]

I understand their reasoning (to a point) but I don't understand what Unilever hope to accomplish. Surely they need Tesco far more than Tesco need them? All this has done is cut their potential profits and make Tesco look good.

 

[AnimoEtFide]

More than a grain of truth to it, though. One of the most interesting things about the referendum debate was the weird sort of role reversal that occurred. On one side, you had normally drab, curtain-twitching, conservative-minded folk (like me) arguing for radical change on ideological grounds, blithely disregarding the practical implications of the proposed change. On the opposing side, you had the left-liberal progressives (of the nominal kind at least) reduced to uber-pessimistic anti-change fretting, much of which amounted to little more than mindlessly parroting the concerns of big business. Usually the other way around.

Conservativism can be as radical and ideologically-driven as any other political tradition. This 'conservatives = anti-change' and 'liberals/left = pro-change' dichotomy is the sort of guff that would fail a GCSE civics exam. And the attempt to label anyone who identifies as liberal or left-wing as a hypocrite because they oppose a proposed new settlement with the EU on the basis that any who is liberal or left-wing should embrace all and any change irrespective of its actual merits is just so utterly ridiculous I can only assume they are being completely disingenuous (ironic given what Alty was accusing someone else of).

 

[smat]

Sturgeon plans draft bill for second referendum

Nicola Sturgeon is to publish a draft bill calling for a second Scottish independence referendum next week in a direct challenge to Theresa May’s hardline stance on leaving the EU.

The first minister told the Scottish National party conference in Glasgow she had a powerful political mandate to defend Scotland’s vote in favour of remaining in the EU in June’s referendum.

 

[Destruction]

Lucky Scotland.

 

[mowgli]

Sturgeon plans draft bill for second referendum

Let them have it and then stop all subsidies. Scots will have to pay for prescriptions and uni education to name but a few. What the idiot Sturgeon has forgotten already is that if they get independence to join The EU they will have to join The Euro so good luck with that.

 

[Ellis]

Let them have it and then stop all subsidies. Scots will have to pay for prescriptions and uni education to name but a few. What the idiot Sturgeon has forgotten already is that if they get independence to join The EU they will have to join The Euro so good luck with that.

Not such a big deal if the UK continues to pursue hard Brexit.

 

[mowgli]

Not such a big deal if the UK continues to pursue hard Brexit.

Really? Scotland will quickly go broke if it gets to stand on it's own two feet without money from Westminster, where will their money come from oil?

 

[smat]

Really? Scotland will quickly go broke if it gets to stand on it's own two feet without money from Westminster, where will their money come from oil?

What about us? We can't even buy Marmite.

 

[johnnytodd]

I would like a referendum on the MODS on here .....well at least SALTY how can a plastic scottish Liverpool fan be a judge on English Football forum.

unbeliveable

 

[silvergull]

I understand their reasoning (to a point) but I don't understand what Unilever hope to accomplish. Surely they need Tesco far more than Tesco need them? All this has done is cut their potential profits and make Tesco look good.

Not at all. Unilever have power that few have; Tesco need the power bands far more. Price increases aren't uncommon. Go through all the tine, and most businesses will follow (especially chocolate manufacturers as all Coco is purchased in USD)

Other retailers accepted the increase. Tesco will be on 40-70% net margin depending on product (far more that unilever makes per sale) and can choose to pace the increase on to consumers or absorb it.

Tesco will buckle and accept it

 

[Gashead]

Re: Scotland, I don't think either them or UK would prosper in a post hard brexit, Indy world.

Certainly dont blame them for giving it a go mind.

 

[.V.]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/inflation-is-coming?utm_term=.kq3NKW6Q2N#.kq3NKW6Q2N

 

[Alty]

Conservativism can be as radical and ideologically-driven as any other political tradition. This 'conservatives = anti-change' and 'liberals/left = pro-change' dichotomy is the sort of guff that would fail a GCSE civics exam. And the attempt to label anyone who identifies as liberal or left-wing as a hypocrite because they oppose a proposed new settlement with the EU on the basis that any who is liberal or left-wing should embrace all and any change irrespective of its actual merits is just so utterly ridiculous I can only assume they are being completely disingenuous (ironic given what Alty was accusing someone else of).

I don't think anyone is saying conservatism boils down to hating all change, but it is true to say that they tend to believe things are the way they are because of a collective wisdom passed on from those who came before. And that they're perhaps more sceptical of change than people from other political traditions.

Anyway, I certainly wasn't saying all liberals and leftists should embrace the Brexit process simply because they should love the idea of change for the sake of change. You're right, that would be mental. What I was objecting to was the idea that this whole process has been poorly handled because people don't know what the end result will be yet. Yes, there's uncertainty. We haven't even started the 2 year negotiation process yet. But that in and of itself doesn't mean the process is being mishandled or that it won't be worth it. This is the kind of logic that would have halted the chartist or US civil rights movements.

 

[silkyman]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-money-for-nhs-theresa-may-tells-health-chief

Democracy, motherfuckers.

 

[Abertawe]

That's why you'll vote Labour come the next election.

#BiggerPictureLongTermGains

 

[Captain Scumbag]

Conservativism can be as radical and ideologically-driven as any other political tradition. This 'conservatives = anti-change' and 'liberals/left = pro-change' dichotomy is the sort of guff that would fail a GCSE civics exam.

I was making a general observation, not attempting to define terms like “conservative”, “liberal” or “progressive” with essentialist certainty.

Generally, people who self-identify as conservative are jitterier about upsetting the established socio-political and economic order than people who self-identify as left wing, progressive, etc.

It’s a generalisation and, like any other generalisation, the best it can do is convey a general sort of truth – one that most people recognise and put some store in, even if any tedious clever-dick arsehole on the internet could point to various counterexamples.

Women are more emotionally articulate than men. Most people would recognise a general truth in that statement, even though it could be easily countered by, say, comparing Shakespeare to White Dee. The generalisation in my second paragraph should be considered in a similar way.

And the attempt to label anyone who identifies as liberal or left-wing as a hypocrite because they oppose a proposed new settlement with the EU on the basis that any who is liberal or left-wing should embrace all and any change irrespective of its actual merits is just so utterly ridiculous I can only assume they are being completely disingenuous.

I don't think it's incumbent on lefty-liberal progressives to embrace change, and it’s reaching to infer such a view from anything I’ve written in this thread. You’re attacking a straw man there, I think.

It’s not hypocritical of lefty-liberal types to oppose change. It is, however, highly unusual to see so many of them side with the political and business establishment, especially at a time when Tories dominate it. And it’s even more unusual when they support and justify that position by co-opting the language, arguments and presuppositions of people (conservatives) they usually hate. If I was having a swipe at anyone, it was that latter type.

This isn’t to write off the entire lefty case for Remain. There are some strong arguments on that side, and I’ve done more than most in this thread to engage with them. It’s just pointing out the bizarreness of people arguing against Brexit by getting all Helen Lovejoy about the declining value of sterling (or whatever) when their default position is that the existing economic order is fundamentally unjust and they support all kinds of radical policies that would, if implemented, spook the markets and have adverse economic effects.

Again, just an observation. Apologies if it lacks the intellectual rigour required to pass a GCSE in Civics.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don't understand how this government consider a 52-48 result, on a turnout under 75% an overwhelming mandate for a hard Brexit.

I did see that the senior civil servant who wrote article 50 thinks the country should vote in a 2nd referendum once we know the terms.

Would you have taken this stance had Remain won by the same margin? A national referendum win is about as clear a mandate as you're going to get. Both parties happily push through legislation that's far less popular than this when given the chance, so quibbling over the margin of victory is a bit rich. It would be a huge betrayal of the electorate if they did a u-turn now, something I suspect they wouldn't dare do until they've found a way to collapse UKIP.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

something I suspect they wouldn't dare do until they've found a way to collapse UKIP.

They seem to be doing a stellar job of that themselves.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Not such a big deal if the UK continues to pursue hard Brexit.

It is. Scotland does far more of it's trade with the rest of the UK than with other EU countries. Leaving the UK after Brexit would put them in a far more precarious position that it would have done when the last referendum was held.

Really? Scotland will quickly go broke if it gets to stand on it's own two feet without money from Westminster, where will their money come from oil?

They'll be fine for the next 40 years or so. England doesn't subsidise Scotland, Scotland (or Scottish oil) subsidises England (a little bit).

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

Would you have taken this stance had Remain won by the same margin?

No, we would have been pushing for a hard remain by not doing anything as quick and as painless as possible.

Bloody hypocrites.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The difference of course being that "hard Remain" is a concept that's been invented after the fact by desperate Remain folk trying to draw a false equivalence. It's a nonsense. Nothing remotely like it was ever on the table.

 

[.V.]

Would you have taken this stance had Remain won by the same margin? A national referendum win is about as clear a mandate as you're going to get. Both parties happily push through legislation that's far less popular than this when given the chance, so quibbling over the margin of victory is a bit rich. It would be a huge betrayal of the electorate if they did a u-turn now, something I suspect they wouldn't dare do until they've found a way to collapse UKIP.

Hardly the same now is it, because we wouldn't have got a hard remain whereby we join the Euro.

 

[mnb089mnb]

This is great
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168882

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

The difference of course being that "hard Remain" is a concept that's been invented after the fact by desperate Remain folk trying to draw a false equivalence. It's a nonsense. Nothing remotely like it was ever on the table.

Didn't you make the comment about taking the same stance? His comment was about questioning the mandate for a hard-Brexit based on a low margin and you questioned if he'd said the same if it was a narrow remain win. The only comparison would be with a hard-remain, which is now a "false-equivalence"?

 

[.V.]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10

 

[smat]

Would you have taken this stance had Remain won by the same margin?

dunno but your best friend nigel farage would be shouting for another referendum while we all told him to GET OVER IT IT'S DONE

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Hammond criticised for voicing his concern about the economic impact via a "very treasury approach". Had to check today's date and make sure it wasn't April 1st.

 

[.V.]

Not to prove a point one way or the other, just thought it was interesting, in an admittedly geeky way.

https://medium.com/@jakeybob/brexit-maps-d70caab7315e#.ngiwbl1c8

 

[smat]

Not to prove a point one way or the other, just thought it was interesting, in an admittedly geeky way.

https://medium.com/@jakeybob/brexit-maps-d70caab7315e#.ngiwbl1c8

this one, showing areas where over 50% of the electorate voted either way, is gross