European Union Referendum

[Red]

the tories wanted to remain didnt they???????

The Tories were divided over Brexit, still are.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Last time Sterling was this low, this was number one:

#brexitbritain #philcollins

 

[.V.]

Fucks sake.

 

[Habbinalan]

 

[johnnytodd]

 

[johnnytodd]

 

[blade1889]

Coincidence?

 

[Alty]

Couldn't believe any serious paper would publish such a silly, OTT and disingenuous headline.

Then I saw it was The National. Makes sense.

It seems Scottish Nationalism is no longer tied up with tartan, shortbread or North Sea Oil...it's all about sanctimonious prickery and economic sums that don't add up.

 

[.V.]

Couldn't believe any serious paper would publish such a silly, OTT and disingenuous headline.

Then I saw it was The National. Makes sense.

It seems Scottish Nationalism is no longer tied up with tartan, shortbread or North Sea Oil...it's all about sanctimonious prickery and economic sums that don't add up.

You don't think the government talking about us and them, in this way, isn't a step in a worrying direction?

Whilst there are obviously legitimate concerns about immigration, a lack of jobs for Brits doesn't generally seem to be an issue, at this moment in time.

https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/status/783590574658125824

 

[Habbinalan]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154347212196558

 

[GodsGift]

I'm getting a bit fed up of O'Brien's daily rants. He's becoming the new David Mitchell.

 

[silkyman]

Last time Sterling was this low, this was number one:

#brexitbritain #philcollins

I think he was pretty down after the Euros...

 

[silkyman]

I'm getting a bit fed up of O'Brien's daily rants. He's becoming the new David Mitchell.

How dare he have an opinion that isn't 'Mein Kampf was a good place to get ideas'

 

[Jockney]

How dare he have an opinion that isn't 'Mein Kampf was a good place to get ideas'

i know right. its like... being anti-fascist is like totes cool and im down with that, but dont be lame about it ffs.

 

[Jockney]

You don't think the government talking about us and them, in this way, isn't a step in a worrying direction?

Whilst there are obviously legitimate concerns about immigration, a lack of jobs for Brits doesn't generally seem to be an issue, at this moment in time.

https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/status/783590574658125824

we've got to be careful how this is phrased, though. immigration isn't the problem, provision is.

 

[Jockney]

The speech as a whole had a lot for traditional Labour voters. Praising Attlee. Acknowledging that living standards weren't rising for working class people (note - she used the phrase "working class" several times). Talk of a bigger role for the state in mitigating the effects of the free market system. And a lot of stuff about community, showing this is not Thatcher 2.0.

Re the EU and migration - May has acknowledged that for many people it's just completely unfathomable that at a time of squeezed living standards and with all the difficulties finding homes for people we'd allow massive expansion of the unskilled labour market and net migration of a third of a million. Of course immigration brings benefits but the major problems it poses were ignored and ignored and ignored. May appears to be addressing them head on now. Coming up with a perfect immigration system is almost impossible but it's high time we did away with the 'anyone can come' policy enforced on us by the EU. Great for business owners who can have their pick from the surfeit of workers. Shite for the average working class person who finds their wages/hours cut and, potentially, their community transformed.

I thought traditional labour was built on the idea of solidarity.

How you cannot recognise that this is rhetoric that precipitates a transition to fascism, or something closely resembling it, is beyond all sense of comprehension. You've become so entrenched in a sort of ideologically anti-humanist political bureaucracy that it has turned you into a self-centred robot. You need to wake up, fella. This is so much more important than the preservation of liberal status quos.

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

The speech as a whole had a lot for traditional Labour voters. Praising Attlee. Acknowledging that living standards weren't rising for working class people (note - she used the phrase "working class" several times). Talk of a bigger role for the state in mitigating the effects of the free market system. And a lot of stuff about community, showing this is not Thatcher 2.0.

Re the EU and migration - May has acknowledged that for many people it's just completely unfathomable that at a time of squeezed living standards and with all the difficulties finding homes for people we'd allow massive expansion of the unskilled labour market and net migration of a third of a million. Of course immigration brings benefits but the major problems it poses were ignored and ignored and ignored. May appears to be addressing them head on now. Coming up with a perfect immigration system is almost impossible but it's high time we did away with the 'anyone can come' policy enforced on us by the EU. Great for business owners who can have their pick from the surfeit of workers. Shite for the average working class person who finds their wages/hours cut and, potentially, their community transformed.

Are you actually a full blown Tory these days? Jesus christ, man.

Absolutely incredible how the Tories can con enough people into thinking that they occupy the centre ground, that they're on the side on the vulnerable, that the attack on foreign workers is something other than some toxic xenophobic bullshit. I have seldom commented in this section recently because I truly fucking despair right now.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Flash crash ftw...

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Silly Skynet and it's buggy algorithms.

 

[silkyman]

Ok, so even UKIP are saying that they are a little too far right...

https://twitter.com/rogerhelmermep/status/784274469384704000

Welcome to the centre ground, people.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Pound back down at around $1.23... HSBC describing the GBP as the government's opposition, which, to be fair, is accurate.

 

[blade1889]

Pound back down at around $1.23... HSBC describing the GBP as the government's opposition, which, to be fair, is accurate.

Well someone's/somethings got to be an effective opposition

 

[johnnytodd]

exports flying out the door here in the real world ...........thanks brexiters !

 

[Habbinalan]

exports flying out the door here in the real world ...........thanks brexiters !

Not looking for an argument, just sharing my own understanding.....correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Value of exports went up as the pound fell but not by anything like as much as the falls in sterling. Volume of many exports is actually down but they're worth a bit more in £s sterling.

Cost of exports (ie imports) is up and rising. The Government expected an increasing trade deficit, even before the latest "blip."

That's because our main exports of goods, apart from crude oil exports, are such things as cars, refined petrol/oil products, diamonds & jewellry, etc. that require inputs/imports that are going up in price in line with the falling value of sterling.

At least our wage costs aren't going up.

 

[Look Out There Are Llamas]

Bring on inflation, basically.

 

[johnnytodd]

On for a record year here going to able to pay mortgage very soon.

 

[Alty]

You don't think the government talking about us and them, in this way, isn't a step in a worrying direction?

Whilst there are obviously legitimate concerns about immigration, a lack of jobs for Brits doesn't generally seem to be an issue, at this moment in time.

https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/status/783590574658125824

There's a question about whether the employment rate for British nationals would be even higher if immigration was lower. Impossible to know, of course. It's certainly true that some immigrants create jobs once they've arrived and that the influx of large numbers from particular countries leads to new markets - just look at all the Polski Skleps that never existed before the 2000s. But I'm sceptical about the idea that because the employment rate for UK nationals is the same as it was 20 years ago, everything is fine. All the immigrants working in shops, bars, as taxi drivers, in agriculture etc...are these not jobs that British people want too?

Anyway, as I think you allude to above, the concerns go well beyond the employment rate. It's about wage compression and reduction of hours, as well as wider issues such as provision of housing and public services. The housing question in particular is one that exposes the very pro-immigration camp's total blindness to the reality of the situation. "The problem isn't immigration - it's lack of government investment". I'm completely on board with the idea that the Government should build more houses, but setting aside other population growth, we've been adding approximately 1 million people to the population every 3 years recently. We just don't have a hope in hell of keeping up with that.

I thought traditional labour was built on the idea of solidarity.
How you cannot recognise that this is rhetoric that precipitates a transition to fascism, or something closely resembling it, is beyond all sense of comprehension. You've become so entrenched in a sort of ideologically anti-humanist political bureaucracy that it has turned you into a self-centred robot. You need to wake up, fella. This is so much more important than the preservation of liberal status quos.

Bloody hell. Calm down, son. I won't bore the hell out of you and everyone else by quoting endlessly from May's speech, but just a couple of excerpts if I may. She talked about creating a country:

"where everyone plays by the same rules and where every single person – regardless of their background, or that of their parents – is given the chance to be all they want to be."

She set out some of her key priorities for the next few years:

"Keeping our promises to the poorest people in the world. Providing humanitarian support for refugees in need. Taking the lead on cracking down on modern slavery wherever it is found. Ratifying the Paris Agreement on Climate Change."

She also drew attention to some of the on-going injustices and promised to work to tackle them:

"If you are from a black Caribbean background, you are three times more likely to be permanently excluded from school than other children. If you are a black woman, you are seven times more likely to be detained under mental health legislation than a white woman. People in ethnic minority households are almost twice as likely to live in relative poverty as white people. But it is not just those from minority backgrounds who are affected. White working class boys are less likely to go to university than any other group in society. We cannot let this stand – not if a country that works for everyone is the principle that binds us all together. That’s why I have launched an unprecedented audit of public services to shine a light on these racial disparities and let us do something about them."

Hardly sounds like laying the foundations for fascism to me.

The rather unkind accusation of being self-centred is particularly bizarre given the speech focused principally on citizenship, community and doing more to help disadvantaged people.

Are you actually a full blown Tory these days? Jesus christ, man.

Absolutely incredible how the Tories can con enough people into thinking that they occupy the centre ground, that they're on the side on the vulnerable, that the attack on foreign workers is something other than some toxic xenophobic bullshit. I have seldom commented in this section recently because I truly fucking despair right now.

To be fair, I was simply responding to Smat who seemed concerned that pogroms were just around the corner.

It's all just rhetoric. I agree. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we'll see what May's Government actually does in the coming years. But as a speech it was clearly aimed at scooping up centrist and floating voters. It was not the mega-scary xenophobic rant that some mad far-left journos and commentators have claimed.

I have still never voted Tory, FWIW.

 

[mnb089mnb]

Calm down son?

 

[Jockney]

Bloody hell. Calm down, son. I won't bore the hell out of you and everyone else by quoting endlessly from May's speech, but just a couple of excerpts if I may. She talked about creating a country:

"where everyone plays by the same rules and where every single person – regardless of their background, or that of their parents – is given the chance to be all they want to be."

This is nothing we haven't heard before and is just an extension of Third Way neo-liberal rhetoric.

She set out some of her key priorities for the next few years:

"Keeping our promises to the poorest people in the world. Providing humanitarian support for refugees in need. Taking the lead on cracking down on modern slavery wherever it is found. Ratifying the Paris Agreement on Climate Change."

Drawing clear distinctions between the good kind of sub-altern and the bad kind. A fairly standard discursive strategem when you're trying to get an entire country on board with the idea of migration being the cause of public service strain, rather than economic policy.

She also drew attention to some of the on-going injustices and promised to work to tackle them:

"If you are from a black Caribbean background, you are three times more likely to be permanently excluded from school than other children. If you are a black woman, you are seven times more likely to be detained under mental health legislation than a white woman. People in ethnic minority households are almost twice as likely to live in relative poverty as white people. But it is not just those from minority backgrounds who are affected. White working class boys are less likely to go to university than any other group in society. We cannot let this stand – not if a country that works for everyone is the principle that binds us all together. That’s why I have launched an unprecedented audit of public services to shine a light on these racial disparities and let us do something about them."

Two things:

1) she suggests that racism is inherent in already-existing public institutions, which is of course partly true, but much more complicated than that. But let's not be silly, what will an audit of public services lead to? It ain't gonna be fucking quotas is it, it is going to be more privatisation. The same 'equality of opportunity' bollocks that will pit the most disadvantaged against each other in merciless economic competition.

2) it is worth pointing out that she specifically mentions black Caribbean demographics, who of 20th Century migrants to the UK are among those who have been in Britain the longest and already have a negotiated sense of British identity. She then mentions the white working class, whom she has said elsewhere are being ignored and patronised by a liberal elite. You don't need to have read Marx or Gramsci to figure out what she is doing here.

Hardly sounds like laying the foundations for fascism to me.

Increased neo-liberal culture in a time of extreme political upheaval, combined with divisive xenophobic rhetoric is exactly the sort of crucible that will ultimately recreate a fascist moment if left unchecked.

The rather unkind accusation of being self-centred is particularly bizarre given the speech focused principally on citizenship, community and doing more to help disadvantaged people.

What critical theory did you read at university? You're not an idiot. I could only really reach one other conclusion.

 

[Techno Natch]

Everything sounds good there but their actions are completely the opposite. Their commitment to climate change for example.