European Union Referendum

[Aber gas]

Again, you're confusing wage inflation in an economic sector with an absence of wage deflation among different professions within that sector. If the average rate of inflation can be over 10% in some professions, then there has to be deflation in others in order for the average across the board to be dragged down to 1.8%. The article you're citing doesn't prove your point, it refutes it.



Um, no I never. I made no link between the two. That discussion was over. You just plucked that line out of a six paragraph excerpt.

Here you go Ebby, might make things a bit clearer for you...http://www.citb.co.uk/news-events/uk/construction-wage-growth-double-the-national-average/#

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Here you go Ebby, might make things a bit clearer for you...http://www.citb.co.uk/news-events/uk/construction-wage-growth-double-the-national-average/#

It's an article referencing the exact same study* that refutes your argument in exactly the same way. I really don't know how to simplify this any further so that you might understand. If you were trying to disprove the claim that the entirety of the construction sector and every profession within it is experiencing wage deflation then you might have a point, but that, to my knowledge, is not a claim that anyone here has actually made.

*a survey done by a single recruitment firm in 2014

 

[Alty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

So the French are of a mind to start reneging on bilateral treaties now? Are they keen to become some sort of tin pot banana republic?

Why did I ever hold out any hope this debate would be reasonable and civilised? Fucking hell.

 

[mnb089mnb]

I don't think leaving the EU will be treated with reason and in a civilized manner by the rest of the EU. They'll be pissed off and will make it difficult for the UK.

If they make it easy, other nations could try and leave.

 

[.V.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

So the French are of a mind to start reneging on bilateral treaties now? Are they keen to become some sort of tin pot banana republic?

Why did I ever hold out any hope this debate would be reasonable and civilised? Fucking hell.

This is exactly why the EU will hit us hard if we leave; they will treat us so badly no one else will want to leave.

 

[Alty]

This is exactly why the EU will hit us hard if we leave; they will treat us so badly no one else will want to leave.

This is nothing to do with the EU. It's a bilateral treaty they'd have to honour. An absolutely pathetic threat.

I have no doubt some fanatic europhiles will want to punish us. The question is whether big manufacturers on the continent would be willing to see their biggest export market ostracised and locked out of trade deals in the name of political point scoring.

The arguments for 'in' have been just so awful thus far. They paint a picture of the U.K. as a maltreated spouse sticking with the abusive partner because better the devil you know.

And yet again, just like Scotland, there's been an incredible amount of focus on the economy and so little on identity, sovereignty, judicial independence etc etc.

I'm borderline sick of it already.

 

[.V.]

This is nothing to do with the EU. It's a bilateral treaty they'd have to honour. An absolutely pathetic threat.

I have no doubt some fanatic europhiles will want to punish us. The question is whether big manufacturers on the continent would be willing to see their biggest export market ostracised and locked out of trade deals in the name of political point scoring.

The arguments for 'in' have been just so awful thus far. They paint a picture of the U.K. as a maltreated spouse sticking with the abusive partner because better the devil you know.

And yet again, just like Scotland, there's been an incredible amount of focus on the economy and so little on identity, sovereignty, judicial independence etc etc.

I'm borderline sick of it already.

In order to hold the EU together they will have to send a message..

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

In a battle between money and politics there'll only be one winner. They'll make their threats while they still have hope of scaring us into staying, but come the aftermath the money men are not going to support gimping their access to the British services sector out of spite, never mind the knock on economic effect for the only continent in the world not experiencing growth. Even the EU as an institution will have an incentive to keep everyone happy, they'll have to find that €8bn (and rising) from somewhere.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[Pyeman]

I see myself as a reasonably educated person, but I'm finding it incredibly hard to wrap my head around the real substance of this debate. I'm hoping someone here can help...

My current thinking is that in order to vote for change, we need to be confident that the change in question will actually benefit us in some way. With that in mind, can someone explain what problems we hope to solve by leaving the EU, and how leaving the EU would actually solve the problems?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

The director-general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) has been suspended over his personal views on Brexit, according to the Financial Times.

John Longworth told BCC's annual conference on Thursday that the UK's long-term prospects could be "brighter" outside the EU.
The BCC's official line is that it will not campaign for either side as its membership is split.

 

[Tilbury]

I see myself as a reasonably educated person, but I'm finding it incredibly hard to wrap my head around the real substance of this debate. I'm hoping someone here can help...

My current thinking is that in order to vote for change, we need to be confident that the change in question will actually benefit us in some way. With that in mind, can someone explain what problems we hope to solve by leaving the EU, and how leaving the EU would actually solve the problems?

I think for a lot of the out side sovereignty is the big issue. The idea of being dictated to by Brussels what we must do, with law, regulation and court rulings etc. Migration of people is a big issue, there are large numbers of people coming into the country, that is undeniable. So regaining total control of our borders would allow us to impose limits or quotas reducing the numbers we do let in, outside the EU's free movement agreement.
Economics also a big factor. We would be able to make our own trade deals, which could be better. We do give the EU a lot of money (although still only roughly 1% of our GDP) without getting that much back so that could be benefit of leaving.
Brief but I'm remain so I can't say how leaving would solve the problems, I don't think it will, I'm sure someone else can give you their reasons.

 

[Cheese & Biscuits]

I see myself as a reasonably educated person, but I'm finding it incredibly hard to wrap my head around the real substance of this debate. I'm hoping someone here can help...

My current thinking is that in order to vote for change, we need to be confident that the change in question will actually benefit us in some way. With that in mind, can someone explain what problems we hope to solve by leaving the EU, and how leaving the EU would actually solve the problems?

I'm similar to you really. At the moment, I'm voting to stay purely because I haven't heard a convincing argument that being out will be better. I'll also be swayed by what Labour will be voting for.

I'm also pretty fed up with the whole thing at the moment.

 

[smat]

Well I've been doing a LOT of homework this morning. I've learned what the European Parliament, the European Council (and the Council of Europe!!), and European Commission are and do. I've learned that Churchill once called for a United States of Europe (though, TELLINGLY, seemed to see the UK as something which would support it, not be part of it). I've learned about Churchill's involvement in the Bengali famine of 1943. I've learned about whereabouts Bengal is in India. I've looked up the best time of year to visit Chennai. I've read cookdandbombd's discussion forum to see how Stewart Lee's latest Comedy Vehicle went down. I've had two decaffeinated coffees and a brief, unexplained and unwelcome bout of diarrhoea.

And after all that, I'm still none the bloody wiser!!

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Yes, this whole business raises more questions than answers (the most pressing being "what kind of MONSTER drinks decaf coffee??")

 

[blade1889]

My phone wont let me copy and paste from fb for some reason

https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/phot...d=1663597996&set=gm.996414913762512&source=48

Thoughts on this Brexiters? Quite convincing argument to stay in tbh...

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I would take the economic hit. The EU makes up a smaller and smaller chunk of our exports all the time anyway, and given how poor European economic growth is that's a trend that seems unlikely to be reversed. What that argument also doesn't take into account is that outside of the EU we wouldn't have to subject other potential trade partners to that same tariff system, which could work in our favour to some extent.

 

[Alty]

Nicky Morgan said: "From safeguarding parental leave to tackling discrimination in the workplace and bringing an end to violence against women and girls, our EU membership is critical in helping protect and further the rights of women around Britain. A vote to leave would put all of this at risk."

I'm sorry - what? What future British Government would be willing to tolerate systematic discrimination and violence against women and girls?

What the hell is going on? Are we even being serious here? Stay in the EU or our women will get beaten and raped?

Just fuck off. Desperate stuff.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

It amounts to an admission that they believe British people can't be trusted to run their own country.

 

[SUTSS]

Is that really any worse than saying that those who want to stay in are like those who didn't want to go to war with the nazis or that Brexiters are modern suffragettes? Idiots and idiotic statements on both sides.

 

[Alty]

Is that really any worse than saying that those who want to stay in are like those who didn't want to go to war with the nazis or that Brexiters are modern suffragettes? Idiots and idiotic statements on both sides.

I completely agree that both comparisons you highlight are stupid. But they're not talking about something as incredibly serious as women's physical safety being under threat if the referendum doesn't go their way.

 

[smat]

I completely agree that both comparisons you highlight are stupid. But they're not talking about something as incredibly serious as women's physical safety being under threat if the referendum doesn't go their way.

I don't know anything about what she's talking about, but did any safeguards come in as a result of our EU membership? Could she be referring to things what have happened in the past?

 

[blade1889]

Sounds to me like something for the European Court of Human Rights which I thought was separate to the EU anyway!?

 

[The Paranoid Pineapple]

Not entirely sure what Morgan's rambling on about (that quote sounds rather alarmist to say the least) but I do think there are some legitimate concerns in this area. I don't think, for instance, that it's totally unreasonable for Remain campaigners to suggest that there are certain rights that are embedded in EU membership - human rights generally, but also in specific areas such as employment etc - that could potentially be scrapped by Westminster in the event of a Leave vote. I'm not saying that this is likely to happen, but neither would I say that I much trust a Tory government to safeguard workers rights (as one example).

 

[Alty]

Not entirely sure what Morgan's rambling on about (that quote sounds rather alarmist to say the least) but I do think there are some legitimate concerns in this area. I don't think, for instance, that it's totally unreasonable for Remain campaigners to suggest that there are certain rights that are embedded in EU membership - human rights generally, but also in specific areas such as employment etc - that could potentially be scrapped by Westminster in the event of a Leave vote. I'm not saying that this is likely to happen, but neither would I say that I much trust a Tory government to safeguard workers rights (as one example).

But it's a Tory Minister's quote!

"Vote stay or I'll take all your rights away. Which is what I secretly want to do, because I'm a Tory...but I'm encouraging you to do something which stops me doing it."

Doesn't make any fucking sense.

 

[SUTSS]

Iain Duncan Smith moaning about the 'elites'. He's been a frontbench politician for 19 years and a leader of the Tories. If he isn't part of the 'elites' who is?

(although the wider point he was making about not having a debate on immigration has allowed "political parties with very poor intentions and nasty motives [to] take control" is largely true I think)

 

[Pliny Harris]

Excuse me for strongarming my way into this thread without reading it through, but one thing I've considered but haven't heard discussion about, is where a successful "Leave" result would er, leave, the Ukips. Maybe I'm weird for not hearing owt about it. But would a lot of people consider them spent if their ultimate purpose has been fulfilled, effectively by another party? Like FCUM if somehow the "fans" took over at MUFC?

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

I don't think they have any plan to disband or anything. Farage remarked about the voting system being his next big crusade 'after we leave the EU'.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

The voting system has needed an overhaul for a while, I voted for AV back when that was a thing, but it failed.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Excuse me for strongarming my way into this thread without reading it through, but one thing I've considered but haven't heard discussion about, is where a successful "Leave" result would er, leave, the Ukips. Maybe I'm weird for not hearing owt about it. But would a lot of people consider them spent if their ultimate purpose has been fulfilled, effectively by another party? Like FCUM if somehow the "fans" took over at MUFC?

Yeah as said in the event of a leave, Farage would be politicking about the negotiations firstly (which would take several months maybe years at anyone's guess) and then would go after the voting system, wanting PR or AV or whatever to improve UKIPs chances of some power. Although to what end at that point, is a fair question.

Still plenty of ranting and raving in the bloke yet you get the impression.