Explosion at Manchester Arena

[Alty]

7/7 bomber Mohammed Siddique Khan:
"Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

Killer of Lee Rigby, Michael Adebolajo:
"The only reason we’ve killed this person is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. It’s an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. These soldiers go to our land, kill, bomb our people.

"Remove your governments – they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die?

"No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you, and your children. So get rid of them – tell them to bring our troops back so we can all live in peace. Leave our land."

Honestly, I really don't think it's worth continuing down the road of whether democracy is a good thing. We're poles apart and I think we've probably already had that discussion as various other threads have gone off on tangents.

Re the gentlemen you quote - this is where I'm sorry to say we get into a world of sophistry and obfuscation. Many Islamic fundamentalists have said they do what they do in accordance with Islamic teaching. It's all there in the Koran and the Hadith. Their actions are entirely consistent.

No, no. Don't listen to them, we're told. They don't really understand Islam. Or they're using it as a cover. Islam is a religion of peace.

And yet when these same people (or at least people carrying out similarly dreadful acts under the banner of some sort of Islamic fundamentalist banner) tell us it's actually about Western Imperialism, we should listen. That's what it's all about. No problems with Islamic scripture. It's actually all our fault.

You can't have it both ways. Do we accept what people tell us their motivations are, or don't we?

To expand a little...polling in recent years has actually shown that as well as having quite shocking views on a range of topics (apostasy, women's rights, gay rights, free speech), many Muslims in the West actually have very, very little knowledge of politics in the Islamic world. I can't really take seriously the idea that Muslim alienation is all about foreign policy when a majority of them don't even know who Mahmound Abbas is.

 

[HertsWolf]

So with the threat level being increased, this is basically martial law? Crazy

Isn't that what a lot of people want? I'm a bit scared by how civil rights **may** get eroded in future, but there seems to be the demand for more surveillance. Of course, those clamouring for 'strength' may not realise that everyone gets more surveillance in order to find 'them'.

 

[spireite]

Ayup HertsWolf has mellowed a bit.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Pakistan
Ethiopia
Afghanistan
Nigeria
Syria
Sierra leonne
South Sudan
Tanzania
India
Bangladesh

What are we honestly gaining by giving these countries between them 2.5billion a year.

Nigeria has significant oil reserves for one, Sierra Leone had large diamond exports, many of them also import from us, by investing "foreign aid" we foster relations, improve conditions that would otherwise not be and also increase the demand for UK products into their economies, we're Sierra Leone's joint-fourth biggest import partner for example. We're investing to get a seat at the table when they have something worth giving back and we're investing their infrastructure to increases our own exports to these countries, do you think they're going to be keen on what we've got to offer and work hard to sell products to us if we basically withdraw all our investments? We have to help economies grow for mutually beneficial reasons.

Considering Brexit is going to have a significant impact on imports and exports, withdrawing all funding and going "isolationist" isn't the best idea in the world.

 

[HertsWolf]

To expand a little...polling in recent years has actually shown that as well as having quite shocking views on a range of topics (apostasy, women's rights, gay rights, free speech), many Muslims in the West actually have very, very little knowledge of politics in the Islamic world. I can't really take seriously the idea that Muslim alienation is all about foreign policy when a majority of them don't even know who Mahmound Abbas is.

This **is** genuinely important and interesting. It would be interesting to know the extent to which immigrant communities take any interest in wider community issues. There have been frequent allegations (from memory in Tower Hamlets and Bradford) of Muslim communities showing no interest in political positions other than that a politician was a Muslim or not. Appreciate that this might play into the agenda of some, but it is an important (and probably very sad) dynamic. However, I bet you will find the same dynamic at play with the permanent expat communities in places like Cyprus, Spain, Portugal.... (Where "immigrants" get called "expats")

 

[HertsWolf]

Ayup HertsWolf has mellowed a bit.

Mellowed? Not sure I have mellowed.

 

[JaseTheVillain]

So with the threat level being increased, this is basically martial law? Crazy

Yeah, two tank divisions have just rolled down Walsall High Street.

 

[HertsWolf]

Nigeria has significant oil reserves for one, Sierra Leone had large diamond exports, many of them also import from us, by investing "foreign aid" we foster relations, improve conditions that would otherwise not be and also increase the demand for UK products into their economies, we're Sierra Leone's joint-fourth biggest import partner for example. We're investing to get a seat at the table when they have something worth giving back and we're investing their infrastructure to increases our own exports to these countries, do you think they're going to be keen on what we've got to offer and work hard to sell products to us if we basically withdraw all our investments? We have to help economies grow for mutually beneficial reasons.

Considering Brexit is going to have a significant impact on imports and exports, withdrawing all funding and going "isolationist" isn't the best idea in the world.

Nigeria may have large reserves of oil but their actual oil industry is a basket case. And Sierra Leone's diamond industry has very few benefits for anyone (are Botswana and Namibia staggeringly rich because of diamonds?). The resource curse means that few resource-rich nations have much of an economic dividend. With respect to Sierra Leone's diamonds, it's a bit like looking at Britain, seeing Chelsea's footballers and claiming that everyone in Britain must be filthy rich because these footballers are.

Much ODA tends to go on small scale project or microfinance, much of it (in recent years) on climate-related projects and initiatives.

 

[Blitzballer]

Yeah, two tank divisions have just rolled down Walsall High Street.

You live in Walsall? My condolences mate

 

[TheMinsterman]

Nigeria may have large reserves of oil but their actual oil industry is a basket case. And Sierra Leone's diamond industry has very few benefits for anyone (are Botswana and Namibia staggeringly rich because of diamonds?). The resource curse means that few resource-rich nations have much of an economic dividend. With respect to Sierra Leone's diamonds, it's a bit like looking at Britain, seeing Chelsea's footballers and claiming that everyone in Britain must be filthy rich because these footballers are.

Much ODA tends to go on small scale project or microfinance, much of it (in recent years) on climate-related projects and initiatives.

It was indeed a generalised statement, I agree, it was more a rough outline as to why perhaps we might give these countries cash that isn't so altruistic as "foreign aid" as a label represents, we have plenty of motives for providing it, hence removing it isn't feasible or plausibly going to ever happen.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Re the gentlemen you quote - this is where I'm sorry to say we get into a world of sophistry and obfuscation. Many Islamic fundamentalists have said they do what they do in accordance with Islamic teaching. It's all there in the Koran and the Hadith. Their actions are entirely consistent.

No, no. Don't listen to them, we're told. They don't really understand Islam. Or they're using it as a cover. Islam is a religion of peace.

And yet when these same people (or at least people carrying out similarly dreadful acts under the banner of some sort of Islamic fundamentalist banner) tell us it's actually about Western Imperialism, we should listen. That's what it's all about. No problems with Islamic scripture. It's actually all our fault.

You can't have it both ways. Do we accept what people tell us their motivations are, or don't we?

To expand a little...polling in recent years has actually shown that as well as having quite shocking views on a range of topics (apostasy, women's rights, gay rights, free speech), many Muslims in the West actually have very, very little knowledge of politics in the Islamic world. I can't really take seriously the idea that Muslim alienation is all about foreign policy when a majority of them don't even know who Mahmound Abbas is.

I've just cited the perpetrators of two main attacks by Muslims for which the motivations were made clear. Maybe you can point me towards terrorist attacks perpetrated in this country by people who claim specifically scriptural, rather than secular motives? For good measure, here's Osama bin Laden's letter to America after 9/11.

"Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple: Because you attacked us and continue to attack us."

He goes on to explicitly refer to the US support for the occupation of Palestine, the US attack on Somalia, US support for Russian actions in Chechnya and the Indian occupation of Kashmir, support for corrupt and repressive regimes in Muslim countries that oppress religious movements, sanctions on Iraq.

The second part of the letter, in which Bin Laden talks about the course he wants America to take is your standard reactionary take on Islam - sharia law, homophobia, anti-semitism, immoral and decadent West etc. But Bin Laden is clear and explicit that he directed the terrorist attacks on the US not because his religion commanded it or because he wants sharia law in the US, but as a response to continuing US actions.

This is why what Kundnani writes is so valuable - because he rejects both the conservative "clash of civilizations" position (i.e. the position held by the likes of Murray, Harris etc) and also the liberal position that holds that extremism is a perversion of True Islam. Instead, he observes that there are a great many interpretations of Islam - some reactionary and conservative, some liberal and progressive but that violent tactics are driven by something distinct from what sort mosque you go to.

And he observes that current models of radicalisation are flawed - violent extremists don't become brainwashed by hate-preachers, but rather driven to violent means through their own material circumstances (often including experiences of state violence) and current affairs. While Islamic teaching provides the framework that underpins their interrogation of the world, it is secular and prosaic things that motivate the violent acts.

When terrorists, or would be terrorists quote the Hadith it tends to be as justification rather than motivation. i.e. they are motivated to kill for secular political reasons and they find the Hadith that they believe permits them to take such an extreme course of action. Islam is a Religion of Peace With Certain Caveats (just like British Democracy believes in law and justice and the spirit of fair play except when it doesn't) and jihadis believe not that Islam instructs them to be violent towards unbelievers, but that conditions are sufficiently awful to cause the caveats to come into effect.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

Should say, none of this should be interpreted as statements of support for or justification of the horrific acts yesterday. Can't imagine what it's like to go through something like that and thoughts with any who are affected.

 

[Smudge]

No I'd still be English, well in fact half english and half scottish as thats where my parents are from it's in the blood not some random place you are fucking born. They may of been born here but they certainly arent proud to be british and i dont expect them to be as they are not British.

I'm British. I was born here, lived here all my life and I like it. But I'm not patriotic, I believe blind patriotism can be just as dangerous as religious extremism in the wrong hands.

Fact is, you are once again going straight back to nasty racist denial to suit an aggressive agenda. The guy is still British, whether you like it or not.

 

[Martino Knockavelli]

Some cultures are better than others. To deny that is to live in fantasy land. France or Saudi Arabia? Germany or Mexico? Come on, be reasonable.

Bold to go with Germany as an example of the abiding superiority of Western European cultures, but fair play for putting all your cards on the table.

 

[Craig]

it's in the blood not some random place you are fucking born.

New UKIP slogan right there.

 

[Redfox]

Err should we not condemn Islam over here just as much as we condemn Nazism? When are you soft lefty's ever going to pull your heads out of the sand and realise that Islam and its Sharia Law is bad and very anti-liberal for that matter?

The ideology of Islam is not compatible with western values and that is showing more and more, so why do we still defend it and allow it to be teached and practised?

 

[blade1889]

Just back from the vigil in Albert Square. Not sure how many were there but it was rammed.

Stood with a big group of mates. One is doctor who worked last night, got there late as he had another bolt to pick out of somebodies face.

Another was a nurse hving just completed a 12 hour shift. A huge mountain of a guy who kept going silent, tearing up and obviously thinking about what he'd seen that "was enough to make anybody cry".

And then another mate who had just gotten out of the arena when the bomb went off. He ran with the crowd and only realised later that the people around him were bleeding and he's obviously dealing with an awful lot.

But within all that there's the appreciation for what the people of Manchester did. The free pizza delivered to the hospitals. The Muslim taxi drivers who refused to charge nurses for the rides in. The people opening their homes to strangers. The huge amount of unity at the vigil, the various ethnicities stood together and all clapped as an Islamic society marched in with a banner condemning what had happened.

I don't have the answers, banning Muslims isn't the answer. Sadly it is a part of life that we have to acknowledge will happen, this people are messed up and all we can do is get better at spotting the signs before something like this happens again.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Err should we not condemn Islam over here just as much as we condemn Nazism? When are you soft lefty's ever going to pull your heads out of the sand and realise that Islam and its Sharia Law is bad and very anti-liberal for that matter?

The ideology of Islam is not compatible with western values and that is showing more and more, so why do we still defend it and allow it to be teached and practised?

It could be this crazy notion that Islamic extremism and fundamentalism and Islam more broadly aren't one in the same, if EVERY practitioner of it genuinely wanted us dead, we'd not be sat having this conversation as there's enough of them to have killed way more of us.

We do condemn Islamic terrorism, it's condemned over and over, you just happen to believe the problem is with Islam more broadly as a whole so you seem to want to re-write reality with "hilarious" labels like soft lefty's. Nobody is saying terrorism is ok and not a problem, they're just not frothing hyperbolically at the mouth calling for public lynchings.

 

[AnkleBiter]

It's been a truly horrible 24 hours. I live on Victoria Bridge Street, about a 90 second walk from the MEN. My street is still closed and police are still on the doorstep of our apartment block, this side of town is always so busy and vibrant, now it's deserted. I just fucking hate that this has happened, it's all way too real and is only going to get worse when all the identities of the dead are revealed. I only finished work at 11 last night and didn't know it was this serious until I was nearly home and fucking armed police stopped me going to my road, whilst they had a guy on the floor emptying his bag. The reaction of the city has been so admirable though, bringing us closer together is exactly what they don't want. Just praying that this is the end of it. As great as our security and emergency services have been, not sure how they can prevent incidents like last night.

Although the immediate shock and distress has slightly faded throughout the day, I'm not sure the sadness and anger will ever go.

 

[Abertawe]

Was gonna post this to my facebook in response to all the vitriol but decided against it. I'l post it here in anonymity instead as it goes for a few in here also.

Manipulation through ignorance is astonishingly effective. Just like Christianity, Islam can't be defined into a single entity as centuries of sectarian war & destruction testifies. There are various strands & interpretations. Before tarring the entire Muslim faith as scum it might be worth taking advantage of being a citizen of a developed 21st century country where information & history is plentiful and available within seconds at the touch of a finger.

The horrendous dealthcult inspiring c*** to mame & murder evolved from the sect of Wahhabism. A 'pure' ultra conservative interpretation of Islam that masscacres those who disagree with it's idealogue. Article explaining Wahhabism's connection to "IS" http://www.newstatesman.com/…/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arab…
Founded by Mohammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab who later on teamed up with Muhammad bin Saud to form the Emirate of Diriyah, ie the first Saudi state. The Ottomans defeated them before the house of Saud returned to form the 2nd Saudi state, Emirate of Nejd, which fell apart because of internal conflict within the Saud family.

The Saud was not done and under Ibn Saud founded the 3rd Saudi state, Saudi Arabia, which ultimately cemented Wahhabism as the dominant force in the Islamic world. The perverse truth which flies over the ignorant head is that we (The UK) backed this backward sect in everyway possible despite knowing it's evils. http://markcurtis.info/…/how-britain-carved-up-the-middle-…/

Winston Churchill when speaking in the house of commons stated that Ibn Saud “hold it as an article of duty, as well as of faith, to kill all who do not share their opinions and to make slaves of their wives and children. Women have been put to death in Wahhabi villages for simply appearing in the streets… [they are] austere, intolerant, well-armed and bloodthirsty”.

Winston kept it chill though because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSvaRjRZrDE

It just so happened that the land beneath Saudi Arabia was home to the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world. The Saud's family monetary worth today is estimated to be over £1.4 trillion making it one of the richest families on earth. However no amount of monetary currency can define it's placing on the geo political map, they're now top table.

Hilary Clinton's hacked memos exposed Saudi Arabia's connection to IS. “We need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to Isis and other radical groups in the region.” http://www.independent.co.uk/…/hillary-clinton-wikileaks-em…
'Pressure' seems to be in the form of selling 100's of billions worth of arms to them. http://www.foxnews.com/…/trump-arrives-to-saudi-arabia-for-…

So when politicians perform crocodile tears remember that they're the puppets complicit in signing off these 'trade deals' to a state that funds the very same terrorist group that claimed responsibility for last nights horrible events. Your enemy is not the 'muzzies'. Muslims are being massacred by Wahhabi inspired death cults in numbers not remotely comparable with western civilian killings. Perhaps pointing the finger at the people who actually purport to make the decisions that ultimately led us to horrors like last night would be a better use of your time. Once you connect the dots you understand that there are no countries & borders, only business. It's all an illusion, 5 year term politicians ain't shit. They do what they're told. Ain't no money maker like the arms trade and if peasants like me & you need to be killed off in order for the business to keep ticking then so be it.

 

[Skinner]

I'm not really one to post on a political section and I'm admittedly well put of my depth in here.

Whilst it's a major incident that has just happened last night, god bless the families by the way. I'd prefer to say I'm more democratic than anything else, with little I know.

However, surely, there's a problem is Muslim communities turning a blind eye to things like this. I mean, my knowledge on current affairs stem to a morning Metro, the news at 6 and perhaps a few documentaries. I'm not really one to tarnish people with the same brush, but whether it be grooming or radicalisation, it seems that it's coming from an area where an Asian community is very tight, they clearly know what's going on in both cases but not only turn a blind eye, but protect them.

As I say, I may be completely wrong and it might be the wrong place to air that, but, it's getting a bit much now isn't it? To the point now where I want to take my 5 year old son to Australia to live.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Good summary Abertawe, it's also worth pointing out that we've been treating Wahhabism with kid's gloves since it's first inception, when it first expanded we were very careful to only act against their tributaries the Qawasim in Ras al-Khaimah, British fleets were specifically under instructions not to engage with the Saudi's themselves and the British Resident's made a great deal of effort to retain cordial relations. It was only when the Egyptian Pasha (Ottoman vassal) stomped them out that we swooped into the Gulf to pick up the spoils. We were quite content to leave our eventual allies the Omani's to their fate when it looked like the Wahhabi's would conquer them too until it suited us otherwise.

 

[HertsWolf]

However, surely, there's a problem is Muslim communities turning a blind eye to things like this. I mean, my knowledge on current affairs stem to a morning Metro, the news at 6 and perhaps a few documentaries. I'm not really one to tarnish people with the same brush, but whether it be grooming or radicalisation, it seems that it's coming from an area where an Asian community is very tight, they clearly know what's going on in both cases but not only turn a blind eye, but protect them.

Not all Muslims turn a blind eye. I heard last night that the family of the Manchester terrorist spoke to the police several times.
The community could do more but then any community can do more to speak to the police about crimes. The reason you don't hear about Muslims talking to the police or informing on people is that, funnily enough, the police don't then go around blabbing about it to the media. Any community that is being marginalised tends to keep itself to itself and anti-Muslim tension is likely (wrongly but somewhat inevitably) to exacerbate that.
However, the police have stopped a lot of plots and much of this is believed to have been helped by information from the communities.
Yesterday afternoon, I saw a Tweet from a Muslim apologising for what had happened in Manchester in the "name of his religion". Among the support for his tweet was a lot of vicious, nasty anti-Muslim vitriol. It's hardly surprising that Muslims are unwilling to stand out when they get subjected to such strong personal attacks.

As I say, I may be completely wrong and it might be the wrong place to air that, but, it's getting a bit much now isn't it? To the point now where I want to take my 5 year old son to Australia to live.

It's been a bit much for a long time. There have also been terrorist attacks in Australia.

 

[Skinner]

Aye I never suggested all, but people are most likely aware that this stuff is going on. Which perhaps back up the points that we need to gain those communities trust rather than tar them all the same. Division really isn't going to help either side

 

[The Eyes of Self Actual]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...-attack-man-with-axe-held-at-birmingham-vigil

A vigil in Birmingham held in memory of the victims of the Manchester Arena attack was disrupted by the arrest of man allegedly carrying weapons.
​

Part and parcel.

 

[Redfox]

Right so it turns out that the terrorist was known to the authorities for being an Isis supporter and he travelled to Syria with proven links to Isis.

So why the hell was he allowed to walk free on our fucking streets?? That's liberalism at it's worst.

We have free speech in this country which is great, but shouting hate speech for a terrorist organisation should no way in hell be allowed and should result in them going to jail and if they are not from here then deported.

A society that can't defend its children has no tomorrow.

 

[Redfox]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...-attack-man-with-axe-held-at-birmingham-vigil

A vigil in Birmingham held in memory of the victims of the Manchester Arena attack was disrupted by the arrest of man allegedly carrying weapons.
​

Part and parcel.

He'll probably be released back on the streets again by tomorrow and free to kill children.

 

[TheMinsterman]

Right so it turns out that the terrorist was known to the authorities for being an Isis supporter and he travelled to Syria with proven links to Isis.

So why the hell was he allowed to walk free on our fucking streets?? That's liberalism at it's worst.

We have free speech in this country which is great, but shouting hate speech for a terrorist organisation should no way in hell be allowed and should result in them going to jail and if they are not from here then deported.

A society that can't defend its children has no tomorrow.

Going to explain how that remotely ties into liberalism? I must have missed the tenet that stated all dangerous criminals must be left on the streets if there's sufficient evidence they're a risk.

 

[Ian_Wrexham]

British democracy is not a particularly good idea - rooted as it continues to be in imperial relations. Nor is it in implacable conflict with "violent islamofascism" whatever that is. I mean, the UK has historically been a major funder of Islamist militias and continues to do so by funding brutal militias with links to al Qaeda in Syria. It maintains cordial relations with regimes that fund sectarian violence across the Islamic world and exports the tools by which democratic and socialist movments across the Islamic World have been repressed.

It's socialism or barbarism. And British Democracy normally finds itself allied with the latter against the former.

On this:

Read this today - about the time Mi6 funded al Qaeda to assassinate Qadafi. It's by no means the entire scope or even the most recent incident of Britain colluding with groups it claims to oppose, but it is illustrative of the contradictions at the heart of British foreign policy - contradictions that directly undermine our safety and security.

The episode is interesting in that it shows how Britain’s secret collusion with radical Islamists has directly undermined its ability to curb and prosecute them – a leitmotif, in fact, of Britain’s postwar foreign policy where Whitehall has often collaborated with the very groups to which it claims to be opposed. Indeed, the extent of this collaboration has been so extensive that many open public trials of the leading terrorist figures are likely to expose it, a fact which also applies to the Saudi, Pakistani and US governments. This partly explains London’s and Washington’s overt opposition to pursuing open legal processes for terrorist suspects – and, most notably, Camp Delta at Guantanamo Bay, where suspected militants have been incarcerated and interrogated behind closed doors.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

I think it's fairly well documented that Britain / America and 'the west' generally speaking, have in the past supported either implicitly or explicitly, many of the people who later became involved in these radical Islamist organisations. For example when they were fighting the Soviets in the 80s. Both the Taliban and Al-qaeda have roots from that war with the Soviets.

It goes to show that it's not a black and white world, it's grey. And that works both ways. The radical Islamist ideology paints an extremely black and white world in which everyone else is an infidel and a fair target.

Ironically given the example you cite Ian, this family in question was granted asylum, citizenship, welfare and education in this county because they were fleeing from Gadafi and Libya.

Unfortunately and tragically, their son got himself twisted around into hating the country and city that welcomed his parents. Hating the country and city that offered him the opportunities that come from a large vibrant, diverse, well invested and friendly city like Manchester. Something clearly went very wrong.