Greece

[Alty]

Referendum on the measures that Europe are offering them...

On 5th of July..

There's been a lot of criticism of Tsipras, Varoufakis and Syriza in general, but in terms of political handling I think they've played all this brilliantly.

 

[Opposite]

There's been a lot of criticism of Tsipras, Varoufakis and Syriza in general, but in terms of political handling I think they've played all this brilliantly.

I'm not quite sure yet...It seems like European Union is a bunch of conservatives,so there was not much of a place for them to move...
I think a Grexit has now more chances than ever before..

 

[HertsWolf]

The whole discussion about Grexit is irrelevant. The greatest humanitarian disaster since the war may be about to unfold.

Once again, a succession of visionless politicians of the highest stupidity have shown their ability to destroy human lives and the human spirit.
Greek politicians have allowed the weakest tax system in history to create a sub-Saharan economy (Burkino Feta?) in Europe, reliant for decades on the rest of the continent to fund their feckless attitude to money management.
Meanwhile, for the same decades, a succession of EU politicians have actively permitted this and done nothing until recently.
These half-arsed bumbling Euro-clowns act now only - and I mean **only** - because their own economies and their own finances are at stake.

The Greek government - their politicians and all 297 million civil servants on the payroll - are utterly determined to find an iceberg for their Titanic. The forthcoming referendum provides an opportunity for people who don't understand the question, let alone the outcome, to convivially destroy their country with lots of armbands, shouting and marching songs.

This is not some kind of big joke that ends with Greeks and others planning a leisurely exit next week from the EU in silver-grey BMW's and a cheerful wave at the border from Aunt Angela and Uncle Jean-Claude.
Without money, there is rapidly no electricity, no water, no food, no drink, no tourists, no jobs, no hope, nothing. No imports, no exports, no petrol, no diesel.
This will take Greece back to the Stone Ages around lunchtime next Tuesday. Riots will break out over water and food. The police and other forces of authority will evaporate because they are Greek and face exactly the same things themselves.
The elderly and the very young will be at risk in the heat, and those with money will leave the country.
Politics, right, left or centre, becomes unnecessary, but the extreme right and left will battle it out for the hearts and minds anyway, because they both thrive on despair and fear.
Everyone will blame each other because that's the way politicians do it. No political figure in history has ever taken responsibility for a fuck up. Yet, at this very moment, there are 20,000 politicians across the entire Continent planning to take credit for some kind of last-minute deal that "saves" Greece until later in the month.

But it is more likely that in ten days time, we'll all be giving to charity to help Greeks. It's a disaster fashioned mainly by politicians of numerous shades. Ordinary people will suffer. The media will love it because nothing sells news like people dying needlessly in the sunshine.

Mankind everywhere deserves better than the shambolic shit that the political and media empires have delivered so far.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

There'll be a deal. There has to be. The creditors know that they either lose some of their money or all of it, and it looks like the new Greek government has bigger balls than they do.

 

[Hooped Wizard]

These last few months surely show how obsolete the left is in Europe. Syriza should have carried on shouting on the side lines.

 

[Opposite]

These last few months surely show how obsolete the left is in Europe. Syriza should have carried on shouting on the side lines.

Explain please

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

Polls closed. The attempts at guessing the vote are all over the place. Doesn't seem to be any exit polling.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

BBC reporting that a NO vote seems most likely according to partial results.

 

[blade1889]

Polls closed. The attempts at guessing the vote are all over the place. Doesn't seem to be any exit polling.

I've read exitpolls suggest a fairly comfortable No but could be wrong

 

[Alty]

Fantastic to see the Greeks look likely to vote 'No'.

I don't think many people buy Tsipras' and Varoufakis' claims that a 'No' vote strengthens Greece's hand in negotiations. They know full well it'll probably mean exiting the Euro. But the people have had enough. And who the fuck can blame them?

Genuinely baffles me that imposing a Northern European model of austerity on a Southern European people - involving massive economic contraction and incredibly high unemployment - was seen as a price worth paying to preserve the dream of ever deeper European integration.

Model doesn't work. Let's end it. Just delighted that's it's a leftist-dominated Government that's started the process.

 

[Techno Natch]

I hate exit polls they spoil the fun. Fair play to Greece though if that result is correct.

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Greece hasn't just voted no, they've done crushingly so. A powerful message to Europe. It gives the government there a massive mandate in their tactics, and the pro Europe leader of the opposition has resigned.

An emergency EU summit called later this week by Merkel.

Into the unknown. Unfortunately could get messier for the ordinary folk of Greece.

 

[Ebeneezer Goode]

 

[yellow]

Excellent post by HertsWolf there ^.

Pretty concerning to see those results, not gonna lie.

 

[Alty]

Varoufakis resigns. Any further negotiations between the Troika and Greece couldn't have happened with him involved. But this suggests the Greeks really believe they can get an improved deal without leaving the Euro.

 

[Captain Scumbag]

It's just example number 101,987 (approx) of an entirely avoidable clusterfuck occurring because dogmatic pursuit of certain political goals has been allowed to trump common sense and economic reality. When our grandchildren learn about the (welcome) collapse of European federalism, that will be the dominant theme.

 

[Jason M]

Germany and their affiliates are the only reason why a deal hasn't yet been confirmed...
Giving Tsipras the opportunity to get away with a deal,will result in many other similar requests from countries like Spain (Podemos will be in charge soon),Portugal,Italy and France...

So,in my opinion,it's really difficult for Merkel to create such uncomfortable circumstances for her and her party...

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Indeed Spain, Portugal and Italy will be watching all this very closely indeed. Anything Greece manage to garner from this, they'll be straight onto Germany.

It's almost in Germany's interest to screw Greece into the ground. But if they do, Greece have made it clear they'd rather leave and be screwed over by their own actions than be screwed by Germany.

 

[HertsWolf]

Greek delegation has turned up at the crisis summit with no proposal and no ideas. They have been given a mandate by the Greek electorate but seems they can't really be arsed. Beware Greeks bearing gits.

Their delegation is staying at The Hotel, Brussels which is €170 per night. So that's the rest of Greek's cash gone then.

 

[blade1889]

Tbf Herts they're probably drawing it out as long as possible to withdraw as much cash from ATMs in Brussels as they can.

 

[Alty]

Greek delegation has turned up at the crisis summit with no proposal and no ideas. They have been given a mandate by the Greek electorate but seems they can't really be arsed. Beware Greeks bearing gits.

Their delegation is staying at The Hotel, Brussels which is €170 per night. So that's the rest of Greek's cash gone then.

You don't get into a political party like Syriza to enact austerity measures. Maybe Tspiras naively believed he could get an acceptable deal that wouldn't lead to Grexit. I dunno. But I think he's probably at the point now where he's gone as far as he can. Better to see Greece return to the Drachma than impose the conditions that the Troika wanted all along and that have caused complete misery over the last 5 years.

 

[Jason M]

Indeed Spain, Portugal and Italy will be watching all this very closely indeed. Anything Greece manage to garner from this, they'll be straight onto Germany.

It's almost in Germany's interest to screw Greece into the ground. But if they do, Greece have made it clear they'd rather leave and be screwed over by their own actions than be screwed by Germany.

Greek delegation has turned up at the crisis summit with no proposal and no ideas. They have been given a mandate by the Greek electorate but seems they can't really be arsed. Beware Greeks bearing gits.

Their delegation is staying at The Hotel, Brussels which is €170 per night. So that's the rest of Greek's cash gone then.

They brought some proposals..They were presented by the new Greek minister,Tsakalotos..They were not written though...Tomorroy morging they will send the formal proposals to Eurogroup..

 

[HertsWolf]

They brought some proposals..They were presented by the new Greek minister,Tsakalotos..They were not written though...Tomorroy morging they will send the formal proposals to Eurogroup..

There were, yesterday morning, six days until utter chaos. Various banks and advisers have said it's impossible to make it all happen in that time, given there needs to be voting (and a majority) in six EU countries for an emergency loan. Yet still - a third of the way in to that period - there is no sign of a proposal from Greece let alone one that the eurozone can agree to.

It is sobering to hear EU countries that are smaller and poorer than Greece (notably Bulgaria and Slovakia) express how thoroughly pissed off they are with Greece. Any haircut for Greece and Italy, Ireland and Spain will be cap in hand within weeks.

An EU exit for Greece now seems inevitable. The elephant in the room is not Greece, but that it's the first Mediterranean domino. Expect the Euro to be 1.50 by Friday, and before cheering, have a think about what this means to UK exports to the Eurozone.

Edit: proposal now in. Just seen it.

 

[Alty]

 

[AFCB_Mark]

Blimey, that can't be too common. Nigel Farage receiving a round of applause in the EU chamber, following admittedly a quite well put together speech.

 

[Alty]

Have the Greeks bottled it at the last minute? Their proposed reforms involve bigger cuts than the deal proposed in the referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33472699

 

[Jason M]

A deal seems closer than ever...

 

[HertsWolf]

On Sunday, with much pomp and ceremony (and money well spent on fireworks), Greece rejected six of the best and two hours detention.

Four days later, they themselves propose 500 lashes and fifteen years imprisonment.

Way to go, Mr Tsipiras! You successfully snatched a worse deal than was being offered last week.

 

[smat]

Peston:

Is a rescue done and dusted?

Not yet.

Tsipras has to get these proposals through the Greek parliament today - though his pax of earlier this week with the main opposition parties will surely deliver that (at the price of the splintering away of some of his own supporters).

Then there is the small question of whether eurozone ministers will stump up the 35bn euros requested by Greece from the European Stability Mechanism to meet debt repayments through to June 30 2018.

And Athens wants a nod that there'll be proper negotiations on reducing its completely unaffordable debt burden by around 30%, as per the IMF's recent sustainability analysis (which would be achieved through the backdoor route of rescheduling repayments closer to the end of time, rather than through the direct write-offs that so offend Germans and east Europeans).

Finally, and most problematically, something has to be done to take the banks out of intensive care. Given the recent melting down of the Greek economy, my sources tell me there is now a solvency problem for Greek banks, to add to the awkwardness for them that they are almost out of cash.

Here is the point. If a way isn't found to allow the banks to re-open within days - and the ECB simply maintaining Emergency Liquidity Assistance won't come anywhere near to achieving that, but the ECB has lost all appetite for throwing more good money after bad - the Greek economy will implode so that any bailout deal agreed this weekend will become irrelevant in weeks.

Because the Greek economy would be so melting down that tax revenues would collapse and Athens would need yet more eurozone handouts. Greece and the eurozone isn't yet fixed, not even close.

Reckon Greece will still exit the Eurozone. Wish there was a good portmanteau for this. Maybe Greavetheeuro.

 

[DarkSithLord]

Looks like Greece could be heading for a temporary exit of the Euro. Whats peoplesthoughts on that.

That excites for personal reasons because as a numismatist it could make the new Greek drachma collectible!